Worthy of the temple Q

[Fether]

Had a somewhat heated discussion today with some friends. Someone said “If it isn’t part of the temple recommend questions, we don’t need to follow it”. I argued that there are plenty of principles of the gospel that someone can slide by on and still go to the temple.

As a personal example, I shared that I don’t think I’ve kept the Sabbath day holy since I got home from my mission five years ago. on Sundays, I’ll often watch about 30 minutes or so of youtube in the morning, and on rare occasion I’ll even play an hour or so of video games. My wife is out of town so I will definitely be playing video games this Sunday. I also tend to have my thoughts focused on work since I am a bit of a workaholic. If I share this with the bishop (which I plan to in a few months when I renew my recommend), I guarantee you he will say “wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”. After which I will go the next 2 years without truly keeping the sabbath day holy. 

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

Edited August 14, 2021 by Fether

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

Had a somewhat heated discussion today with some friends. Someone said “If it isn’t part of the temple recommend questions, we don’t need to follow it”. I argued that there are plenty of principles of the gospel that someone can slide by on and still go to the temple.

As a personal example, I shared that I don’t think I’ve kept the Sabbath day holy since I got home from my mission five years ago. on Sundays, I’ll often watch about 30 minutes or so of youtube in the morning, and on rare occasion I’ll even play an hour or so of video games. My wife is out of town so I will definitely be playing video games this Sunday. I also tend to have my thoughts focused on work since I am a bit of a workaholic. If I share this with the bishop (which I plan to in a few months when I renew my recommend), I guarantee you he will say “wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”. After which I will go the next 2 years without truly keeping the sabbath day holy. 

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

Leeway…

We need enough structure to have a good foundation to grow on, but growth comes from personal desire to change more than outside pressure IMO.

[rpn]

The question is do you strive to keep the commandments.   You describe yourself as deliberately not doing things you think you are required to do to keep the Sabbath day holy (though there is no ONE standard  of expectation for what is required to do so except that it pretty clearly requires church attendance to the extent one is physically and medically able  and can figure out a way to do so around one's work schedule in an industry where sunday work is required).   There is also an element of whether you are intentionally thumbing your nose at various commandments, that can certainly potentially impair your temple experience.   I think the bishop is obligated to accept the responses of those who seek recommends absent actual knowledge of sin.  I also think that members who are going when they aren't telling the truth in interviews and/or who perceive themselves as not even marginally keeping commandments they know they should be keeping  are putting themselves in danger spiritually.   OTOH, personal best plus quick repentance (means you're working on mastering it fully) of actual sin is ALWAYS even to make a member perfect in Christ through the atonement.   (It the flipppant attitude I perceived in your words that would trouble me if I were in your shoes, honest and full effort into keeping commandments give access to the atonement, but it doesn't close the gap of just doing what you feel like doing.)

[hearserve]

47 minutes ago, Fether said:

“wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”.

While I have given probably close to one thousand recommend interviews, I admit that I have never said anything close to the above.  I guess the people in my ward/stake just aren't "cool" enough. YMMV

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

A temple recommend interview is basically a repeat of the baptismal interview. It's the bare minimum, there to make sure we haven't gone so far backwards that we would not longer qualify to even join the Church. It's the foundation on which we build, as Calm wrote.

[Rain]

More than 30 years ago while on my mission I went to an RS class.  I don't remember who said the quote or even the words, but paraphrased it was "people think you need to be perfect to go to the temple. They don't understand that you need to go to the temple to be perfect. "

So my thought isn't that they should give leeway, but should have understanding of the abilities and actions of the person and help them apply the atonement in when and how to get the temple.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Rain

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, Fether said:

Had a somewhat heated discussion today with some friends. Someone said “If it isn’t part of the temple recommend questions, we don’t need to follow it”. I argued that there are plenty of principles of the gospel that someone can slide by on and still go to the temple.

As a personal example, I shared that I don’t think I’ve kept the Sabbath day holy since I got home from my mission five years ago. on Sundays, I’ll often watch about 30 minutes or so of youtube in the morning, and on rare occasion I’ll even play an hour or so of video games. My wife is out of town so I will definitely be playing video games this Sunday. I also tend to have my thoughts focused on work since I am a bit of a workaholic. If I share this with the bishop (which I plan to in a few months when I renew my recommend), I guarantee you he will say “wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”. After which I will go the next 2 years without truly keeping the sabbath day holy. 

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

I think bishops are strict on who goes to the temple (I know of people the bishop is working with to help them get things in order so they can get a recommend).  

But the temple recommend questions really put the weight of the decision on the person answering the questions, not the person asking them.  

#15 sums it up:  "Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?" 

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Fether said:

Had a somewhat heated discussion today with some friends. Someone said “If it isn’t part of the temple recommend questions, we don’t need to follow it”. I argued that there are plenty of principles of the gospel that someone can slide by on and still go to the temple.

As a personal example, I shared that I don’t think I’ve kept the Sabbath day holy since I got home from my mission five years ago. on Sundays, I’ll often watch about 30 minutes or so of youtube in the morning, and on rare occasion I’ll even play an hour or so of video games. My wife is out of town so I will definitely be playing video games this Sunday. I also tend to have my thoughts focused on work since I am a bit of a workaholic. If I share this with the bishop (which I plan to in a few months when I renew my recommend), I guarantee you he will say “wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”. After which I will go the next 2 years without truly keeping the sabbath day holy. 

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

I would say, "No." The individuals are responsible for their answers, and the Bishop for discerning their answers for the sake of discussion and repentance on these relatively few points. He is not a policeman, but a shepherd. He may deny a recommend contrary to someone's "correct" answers, but I think this is an extremely rare occurrence, and there is an appeals process.

Edited August 14, 2021 by CV75

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, Fether said:

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

I think we get into the weeds when we qualify our yes/no answers. 

[rpn]

15 hours ago, rpn said:

The question is do you strive to keep the commandments.   You describe yourself as deliberately not doing things you think you are required to do to keep the Sabbath day holy (though there is no ONE standard  of expectation for what is required to do so except that it pretty clearly requires church attendance to the extent one is physically and medically able  and can figure out a way to do so around one's work schedule in an industry where sunday work is required).   There is also an element of whether you are intentionally thumbing your nose at various commandments, that can certainly potentially impair your temple experience.   I think the bishop is obligated to accept the responses of those who seek recommends absent actual knowledge of sin.  I also think that members who are going when they aren't telling the truth in interviews and/or who perceive themselves as not even marginally keeping commandments they know they should be keeping  are putting themselves in danger spiritually.   OTOH, personal best plus quick repentance (means you're working on mastering it fully) of actual sin is ALWAYS enough to make a member perfect in Christ through the atonement.   (It the flippant attitude I perceived in your words that would trouble me if I were in your shoes, honest and full effort into keeping commandments give access to the atonement, but it doesn't close the gap of just doing what you feel like doing.)

 

[Kenngo1969]

Kenngo1969's Bishop: "Are you a full tithe payer?"

Kenngo1969: "Yeah."  [As in, "Yeah, I give 10 percent of my income to charity."]

I don't know whether the Bishop's spirit of discernment would kick in, or whether the gig would be up when the Bishop reviewed my Tithing receipts for the year in preparation for Tithing Settlement, but ...  The Bishop might be mocked, but God won't be.

[TAO_2]

On 8/13/2021 at 5:27 PM, Fether said:

Had a somewhat heated discussion today with some friends. Someone said “If it isn’t part of the temple recommend questions, we don’t need to follow it”. I argued that there are plenty of principles of the gospel that someone can slide by on and still go to the temple.

As a personal example, I shared that I don’t think I’ve kept the Sabbath day holy since I got home from my mission five years ago. on Sundays, I’ll often watch about 30 minutes or so of youtube in the morning, and on rare occasion I’ll even play an hour or so of video games. My wife is out of town so I will definitely be playing video games this Sunday. I also tend to have my thoughts focused on work since I am a bit of a workaholic. If I share this with the bishop (which I plan to in a few months when I renew my recommend), I guarantee you he will say “wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”. After which I will go the next 2 years without truly keeping the sabbath day holy. 

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

I think your right somewhat, but in a sense, it isn't fully the Bishop's job to check for other things unless he feels prompted to (or just wants to really, I guess).

The temple recommend questions are the Lord's designated interview for the temple.  However, the purpose of this life is to grow to be a being more and more like the Savior.  In that sense the temple is not just a goal, but a waypoint that we pass through on the way to an even more important goal.  There's more we need to do to receive eternal life.  And it's not meet for us to be commanded in all things (I feel a bit hypocritical saying this because I'm sure a stubborn person that the Lord has to command more than he probably should need to).  So just because it isn't listed, doesn't necessarily mean we should do something.

On the other hand, a lot of these things more personal matters are mainly dictated by personal revelation and communicating with God.  For example, as you mentioned, for one person, God might tell them that playing games on Sunday isn't wise.  For other people, he may say that it's alright.  I think the important thing to do there is to be open enough to the Spirit that you feel comfortable that your walking okay in the Lord's sight.  That's not always easy, but yeah.  So maybe there are unlisted things that we probably ought to be obeying before going to the temple.  On the other hand... we should be praying to know these things for ourselves, so we can go, knowing that the Lord feels we are prepared and ready (and I don't expect that to be always consistent, sometimes the Lord may say 'I know you don't feel prepared, but you need to go the temple right now'.  So yeah... really I guess the Lord just wants us to talk to him, or something like that).

Just my two cents.

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, TAO_2 said:

or just wants to really, I guess).

Sticking one’s nose into others’ business out of curiosity is not a perq of being a Bishop.

[TAO_2]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Sticking one’s nose into others’ business out of curiosity is not a perq of being a Bishop.

True.  However, I'm not so sure that it's outside of a Bishop's jurisdiction to ask questions that are of a spiritual nature so to say.

Mmm... okay, this is a pretty lame example I'm using but... as an example, the temple interview questions don't ask you about if your pray or read your scriptures.   But I don't think that those would be out of bounds for a bishop to ask about, so to say, maybe even if he wasn't prompted to.  Those things are just part of being a bishop and all the things he can ask about aren't necessarily written down.

On the other hand, there are definitely issues a bishop should stay out of, and the church has had to make some of those pretty clear (such as how married couples deal with sex).  So there are certainly limits to it.

[JustAnAustralian]

5 hours ago, TAO_2 said:

But I don't think that those would be out of bounds for a bishop to ask about, so to say, maybe even if he wasn't prompted to.

Not as a temple recommend requirement though. The handbook is quite specific about that.

"Priesthood leaders should not add any requirements to those that are outlined in the temple recommend book."

[Kenngo1969]

A person may have certain problems that, ordinarily, would prevent him (or, potentially, her) from going to the Temple.  Inspiration is an interesting thing: It may prompt a Bishop to tell one person, "Let's work on this and get it resolved so you can be worthy to attend the Temple, OK?"  It may prompt another Bishop to tell another person (or even the same Bishop from the first example to tell another person), "As part of your becoming whole again and making the Atonement fully operative in your life, you need to go to the Temple, so here's your recommend.  Call my executive secretary to set up an appointment for us to meet again in [x] weeks."  I've heard (anecdotally) of the second occurrence happening, which raises a question: What about the interview with the Stake President?  Is the person authorized to give all of the "correct" answers (that is, those that indicate that s/he's worthy)?  I suppose so.  I wouldn't know.   Just one of 99,735,615,500 reasons why I'll never be a Bishop or a Stake President. 

I think the kind of things the OP is talking about probably fall into the second of the two categories I mention above: The more time one spends in the Temple/living a Temple-focused life/etc., the less one desires to use one's time in engaging in perhaps-"marginal" Sabbath activities.  On a perhaps-unrelated or perhaps-too-political note, I'm glad that the NFL & NBA both have gone "woke." Two generations of my family and a cousin of mine all are [or were] cops, so if ACAB, FTP, and similar slogans/sentiments are the order of the day in those leagues, now, I have an excellent excuse to ignore them: they don't want me as a fan.  Also, I'm glad that an MLB team called out one if its fans as a racist when all the guy was doing was trying to get a mascot's attention.  (While I wasn't really all that much of a fan of MLB, that incident aided the evaporation of what little interest I had.)  I shouldn't have needed any of these excuses to drop sports (man, I've wasted so much time and emotional energy on things that don't matter ) ... Thanks NBA, NFL, and MLB, for making what could have been a difficult decision or transition really easy!

Another reason why I'll never be a Bishop or a Stake President is that if a member said he needed to confess something, and when he came in, told me that he played hopscotch with his kids the previous Sunday, I'd have a hard time not rolling my eyes and sighing while listening to the "confession."  "Hopscotch with the kids on Sunday?! No sacrament for you for a year!"   Some [very few] things are, "Yep.  See the Bishop."  Others are, "Take it up with the Lord, do what He tells you to do, and you're good."

[Rain]

6 hours ago, TAO_2 said:

True.  However, I'm not so sure that it's outside of a Bishop's jurisdiction to ask questions that are of a spiritual nature so to say.

Mmm... okay, this is a pretty lame example I'm using but... as an example, the temple interview questions don't ask you about if your pray or read your scriptures.   But I don't think that those would be out of bounds for a bishop to ask about, so to say, maybe even if he wasn't prompted to.  Those things are just part of being a bishop and all the things he can ask about aren't necessarily written down.

On the other hand, there are definitely issues a bishop should stay out of, and the church has had to make some of those pretty clear (such as how married couples deal with sex).  So there are certainly limits to it.

What determines questions of a spiritual nature? 

"Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?"

This has been approached with some wide interpretation of asking questions of a spiritual nature.

"Do you wear them night and day?"  "Do you stay out of them for long after the gym?" "Do you wear them underneath or on top of your bra?" (Yes, women have been asked this.)

Priesthood leaders have had lots of justifications thinking their questions were of a spiritual nature when often it could be just as easily curiosity or snooping.

 

[bOObOO]

On 8/13/2021 at 5:27 PM, Fether said:

Had a somewhat heated discussion today with some friends. Someone said “If it isn’t part of the temple recommend questions, we don’t need to follow it”. I argued that there are plenty of principles of the gospel that someone can slide by on and still go to the temple.

Something about:  'he who needs to be commanded in all things is a slothful servant' comes to my mind.  We should want to do good just because we believe it is good to do good, rather than because we are commanded to do good. 

On 8/13/2021 at 5:27 PM, Fether said:

As a personal example, I shared that I don’t think I’ve kept the Sabbath day holy since I got home from my mission five years ago. on Sundays, I’ll often watch about 30 minutes or so of youtube in the morning, and on rare occasion I’ll even play an hour or so of video games. My wife is out of town so I will definitely be playing video games this Sunday. I also tend to have my thoughts focused on work since I am a bit of a workaholic. If I share this with the bishop (which I plan to in a few months when I renew my recommend), I guarantee you he will say “wow bro fether, you are so cool for worrying about this. Because you are so cool, I’ll give you a recommend”. After which I will go the next 2 years without truly keeping the sabbath day holy. 

Maybe the bishop will surprise you and act more like a good counselor to you than one of your groupies.  A good counselor would say something like:  'How do you feel about that?' or 'Sounds like that bothers you, what would you like to do about that?'.

On 8/13/2021 at 5:27 PM, Fether said:

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

You're asking us to weigh in with ideas about what we think bishops should do?  I think bishops should do what bishops believe is good to do.  Just as I believe we all should do what we believe is good to do.

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

You're asking us to weigh in with ideas about what we think bishops should do?  I think bishops should do what bishops believe is good to do.  Just as I believe we all should do what we believe is good to do.

Thanks for weighing in

[katherine the great]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:27 PM, Fether said:

My question is not “am I worthy?” my question is this. Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

I think most Bishops should keep doing what they’re doing. From my vantage point, most bishops are the salt of the earth and do a great job and shouldn’t have to worry about being judged by non church leaders. 

[Eph2,8]

Anciently, when animal sacrifice was in full swing, tabernacles/temples were the only place that atonement took place. Of course, these sacrifices did not literally cleanse the Israelites of their sin but, no temple, no forgiveness. The ancient tabernacle was not given as a lofty post-righteousness VIP club. It was given so that the Israelites could receive righteousness and forgiveness from God. I think it's similar with our temples today. Ultimately, no temple, no real forgiveness. The temple is not something we do after our heart has been changed, or after we are sufficiently Christlike, it's where we go to receive the power to do those things. If High Priests anciently were too strict on who entered, the Israelites who needed Christ the most would be barred and not able to be cleansed. 

Also remember Romans 3:23. No one is really ever worthy of the temple on their own merit. We find our worthiness through the Savior and His Atonement. The temple recommend just gives us a good chance to show our attitude towards and commitment to God's commandments. Ultimately, the Savior makes anyone who desires to enter the temple worthy to do so. 

[Amulek]

On 8/13/2021 at 7:27 PM, Fether said:

Should Bishops be more strict on who goes to the temple, or should they continue to give the leeway they are often known for giving?

I'm going to throw my lot in with team leeway.

If God wanted only perfect people in the temples He would have instructed us to build them without doors.

 

[secondclasscitizen]

On 8/18/2021 at 7:43 AM, Amulek said:

I'm going to throw my lot in with team leeway.

If God wanted only perfect people in the temples He would have instructed us to build them without doors.

 

Amen

on a side note Amulek is my name too

[2BizE]

I think the TR questions encourage members to show more loyalty to church leaders than to God the Father and Jesus Christ.

I think there should only be two questions:

Do you love God?

Do you love your neighbor?