Earth: celestsial or telestial?

[Nofear]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:06 PM, OGHoosier said:

I'm inclined to think the opposite, that quantum indeterminacy undermines Einstein's ideas about the universe.

While it's a bit off topic, quantum indeterminacy* does not return the concept of free agency. As far as agency is concerned it is just as incompatible as determinism is.

 

* Never mind that quantum mechanics doesn't actually have to be indeterministic. Bell proved we have to give up either counter-factual definiteness (indeterminism) or locality. Our other branches of physics are very much local and hence many are willing to give up CFD. Locality and the theology of a divine being that actively governs a domain of countless light-years ... has issues.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Nofear

[Nofear]

On 8/11/2021 at 10:40 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Is "kingdom hopping" like serial reiigiosity?  Membership in the religion of the month club?

Kingdom hopping is an irreverent expression for the idea that there is the possibility one can advance, eventually, from one kingdom to another. For example, suppose an individual initially assigned the telestial kingdom progresses and advances her character such that she is more comfortable living a terrestrial law -- could she move to that sociality?

[teddyaware]

46 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Kingdom hopping is an irreverent expression for the idea that there is the possibility one can advance, eventually, from one kingdom to another. For example, suppose an individual initially assigned the telestial kingdom progresses and advances her character such that she is more comfortable living a terrestrial law -- could she move to that sociality?

No, it’s more important that traditional LDS ideas pertaining to the plan of salvation be upheld, even if the terrestrial being in question would eventually be more comfortable dwelling in the celestial kingdom. But why, you ask, do angels from heaven and beings from the terrestrial kingdom “minster” to the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom, as if they’re trying to help them to grow spiritually and progress? Well what’s actually happening is they’re rubbing the faces of those in the telestial kingdom in their eternally lost opportunity for dynamic spiritual growth and progression to higher realms of spiritual attainment. One of the great things about being in a higher kingdom of glory is all the fun that can be had by mocking and ridiculing those who “blew it.”

Edited August 13, 2021 by teddyaware

[Nofear]

57 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

No, it’s more important that traditional LDS ideas pertaining to the plan of salvation be upheld, even if the terrestrial being in question would eventually be more comfortable dwelling in the celestial kingdom. But why, you ask, do angels from heaven and beings from the terrestrial kingdom “minster” to the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom, as if they’re trying to help them to grow spiritually and progress? Well what’s actually happening is they’re rubbing the faces of those in the telestial kingdom in their eternally lost opportunity for dynamic spiritual growth and progression to higher realms of spiritual attainment. One of the great things about being in a higher kingdom of glory is all the fun that can be had by mocking and ridiculing those who “blew it.”

I'm an advocate of the concept of inter-kingdom progression. But, it's by no means an idea held by everybody, perhaps not even by most. Elder Ballard wrote a little tract where he outlines his thinking about it (and gives rational that avoids criticism above).
https://www.amazon.com/Three-Degrees-Glory-Melvin-Ballard-ebook/dp/B001UV3FIC

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

While it's a bit off topic, quantum indeterminacy* does not return the concept of free agency. As far as agency is concerned it is just as incompatible as determinism is.

 

* Never mind that quantum mechanics doesn't actually have to be indeterministic. Bell proved we have to give up either counter-factual definiteness (indeterminism) or locality. Our other branches of physics are very much local and hence many are willing to give up CFD. Locality and the theology of a divine being that actively governs a domain of countless light-years ... has issues.

This is why I said that physics is far from my expertise and I might make embarrassing mistakes. 

FWIW, I'm more in favor of two-stage models of free will a la Robert Kane and Bob Doyle then a pure "quantum indeterminacy gives free will", which I acknowledge is naive. Still exploring tho. 

I will also say that interpretation of Bell is still fraught. Take the following 2014 article in Nature which argues that the impact of Bell's paper was a complete demolition of locality, no matter  whether determinism or indeterminism prevails.

Edited August 13, 2021 by OGHoosier

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

I will also say that interpretation of Bell is still fraught. Take the following 2014 article in Nature which argues that the impact of Bell's paper was a complete demolition of locality, no matter  whether determinism or indeterminism prevails.

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of it. I'm not entirely convinced by the argument but I haven't taken the time to go through it more rigorously. That said, I believe non-local interactions are the way to go (and that our theology essentially demands it). Problem is, once one introduces faster-than-light interactions* it is possible to create temporal paradoxes and that's a bad way to implement reality.

 

* Quantum mechanics gets around it with it's no-go theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem) but that makes any kind of FTL that would be required by a theology as impossible.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Nofear

[bOObOO]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

No, it’s more important that traditional LDS ideas pertaining to the plan of salvation be upheld, even if the terrestrial being in question would eventually be more comfortable dwelling in the celestial kingdom. But why, you ask, do angels from heaven and beings from the terrestrial kingdom “minster” to the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom, as if they’re trying to help them to grow spiritually and progress? Well what’s actually happening is they’re rubbing the faces of those in the telestial kingdom in their eternally lost opportunity for dynamic spiritual growth and progression to higher realms of spiritual attainment. One of the great things about being in a higher kingdom of glory is all the fun that can be had by mocking and ridiculing those who “blew it.”

You're using psychology, right?  Very clever.  Certainly he will see the truth when you put it that way.

[OGHoosier]

11 hours ago, Nofear said:

Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of it. I'm not entirely convinced by the argument but I haven't taken the time to go through it more rigorously. That said, I believe non-local interactions are the way to go (and that our theology essentially demands it). Problem is, once one introduces faster-than-light interactions* it is possible to create temporal paradoxes and that's a bad way to implement reality.

 

* Quantum mechanics gets around it with it's no-go theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem) but that makes any kind of FTL that would be required by a theology as impossible.

What do you think about wormholes? 

I ask because, if they do exist, ordinary subluminal communications could be sent through them which would enable them to reach the other side at superluminal speeds. If wormholes do exist, then God can create and manipulate them, perhaps to help him in administering the universe. There are some models of wormhole formation which would not become "timeholes", which removes the problem of temporal paradoxes if I understand it correctly.

For my part, I'm not as worried about the temporal paradox thing if the only being which could manipulate such forces is God or beings that become like God. He's God. Furthermore, I've always thought that God's relationship to the arrow of time was somewhat different then ours, since it seems that He can answer prayers by setting in motion events that occur before the prayer is said or even thought of. It wouldn't surprise me if God is able to communicate with Himself at various points in time in order to coordinate such actions. 

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One of the great things about being in a higher kingdom of glory is all the fun that can be had by mocking and ridiculing those who “blew it.”

Thank you! Can you believe people told me I was a sinner for thinking that would be the best thing about exaltation? Spoilsports.

[Nofear]

11 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

What do you think about wormholes? 

I ask because, if they do exist, ordinary subluminal communications could be sent through them which would enable them to reach the other side at superluminal speeds. If wormholes do exist, then God can create and manipulate them, perhaps to help him in administering the universe. There are some models of wormhole formation which would not become "timeholes", which removes the problem of temporal paradoxes if I understand it correctly.

For my part, I'm not as worried about the temporal paradox thing if the only being which could manipulate such forces is God or beings that become like God. He's God. Furthermore, I've always thought that God's relationship to the arrow of time was somewhat different then ours, since it seems that He can answer prayers by setting in motion events that occur before the prayer is said or even thought of. It wouldn't surprise me if God is able to communicate with Himself at various points in time in order to coordinate such actions. 

People, including physicists, like to think of wormholes as a solution. I don't see it. I made a toy calculation to exemplify the situation.

Two frames are shown. One from the perspective of two space stations (alpha and beta) and a third from the perspective of a ship (not shown) moving to the left at 0.5c.
From the the stations' perspectives, the countermeasure arrives before station beta is destroyed. From the ship moving to the left (not shown), they would never see the countermeasure being launched (since event E is in the spacelike region) but if they did the calculations, light from the explosion of station beta would reach station alpha even before ship gamma could have seen station alpha launch their attack.

In general, for timelike or null events, the sequence of events is preserved no matter what frame of reference is used. But once one allows communication from spacelike regions to timelike regions the sequence of events can change (hence paradoxes). Wormholes don't change that (one can think of them as being like a missile with infinite speed). Heck, even the Alcubierre drive doesn't change that (maybe things will work out for its little bubble of modified spacetime but paradox can occur for observers external to the bubble).

Is there a way around this? Maybe. If one hypothesizes a different class of matter that obeys Lorentz transformations with a different c (say c2), then one can shrink the spacelike regions and retain causality. The rub is that nothing that transforms with c2 while moving at speeds greater than c couldn't interact with anything that obeys transformations with c -- lest one create paradox.

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

People, including physicists, like to think of wormholes as a solution. I don't see it. I made a toy calculation to exemplify the situation.

Two frames are shown. One from the perspective of two space stations (alpha and beta) and a third from the perspective of a ship (not shown) moving to the left at 0.5c.
From the the stations' perspectives, the countermeasure arrives before station beta is destroyed. From the ship moving to the left (not shown), they would never see the countermeasure being launched (since event E is in the spacelike region) but if they did the calculations, light from the explosion of station beta would reach station alpha even before ship gamma could have seen station alpha launch their attack.

In general, for timelike or null events, the sequence of events is preserved no matter what frame of reference is used. But once one allows communication from spacelike regions to timelike regions the sequence of events can change (hence paradoxes). Wormholes don't change that (one can think of them as being like a missile with infinite speed). Heck, even the Alcubierre drive doesn't change that (maybe things will work out for its little bubble of modified spacetime but paradox can occur for observers external to the bubble).

Is there a way around this? Maybe. If one hypothesizes a different class of matter that obeys Lorentz transformations with a different c (say c2), then one can shrink the spacelike regions and retain causality. The rub is that nothing that transforms with c2 while moving at speeds greater than c couldn't interact with anything that obeys transformations with c -- lest one create paradox.

Fair enough. I am well out of my depth here and don't have more to contribute on the matter. 

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, Nofear said:

People, including physicists, like to think of wormholes as a solution.

I think you mean interspatial flexure.  Wormhole is a layman's term (to quote Torat in Star Trek: Voyager [Season 5, Episode 10])