News Article Titled "New Movement of Religious Extremists" has picture of Book of Mormon as Thumbnail

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

I think that statement is more aspirational than reality.

If it were reality, the monthly home teaching stats would have been much higher than they were.

Good point.

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Or maybe it will change the way you feel about them? I've had this happen to me this year. People that I admired and loved, so disappointing. 

That’s always a possibility. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Julia Rowe, Denver Snuffer, etc. were never named (or their movements specifically mentioned)…

Not publicly at conference (a public statement was made when the story of the spurious materials list was released). Rowe’s book was named in the spurious materials for CES. Can’t remember if her name as author was included. 

Looks like she was named:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66042-spurious-materials-and-julie-rowe/

The public statement:

https://www.millennialstar.org/a-caution-about-julie-rowes-book/

Quote

The internal memo does not constitute an official Church statement but serves as a routine reminder to teachers from Seminaries and Institutes of Religion of their responsibility to teach from the scriptures and church leaders," Andersen said. "People who read her books should recognize that they are personal accounts and do not necessarily reflect church doctrine.

Quote

Although Sister Rowe is an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, her book is not endorsed by the Church and should not be recommended to students or used as a resource in teaching them. The experiences she shares are her own personal experiences and do not necessarily reflect Church doctrine or they may distort Church doctrine.”

I would be very surprised if anyone was named though. Iirc, when the Church issued a distancing from white nationalists after the ‘Mormon mommy’ became a national celebrity with her routine (even showed up here defending herself for a few days), even though there was a very easily identified specific person involved in connecting the white supremacy moment to church members, her name or even her existence wasn’t mentioned, just a general statement. 
 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

Found a screenshot as it is no longer current on the church site…and Rowe did get excommunicated eventually as she got more extreme.

[smac97]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

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If persons in your article were members of my Ward I would rather know who they were and what they believed.

Good point.  I think I would too.

Or maybe it will change the way you feel about them? I've had this happen to me this year. People that I admired and loved, so disappointing. 

This is perhaps one of the reasons why the Lord has some confidentiality measures in place in terms of members (leaders) of the Church messing up:

Quote

There are at least five different procedures a Church member can follow in addressing differences with Church leaders—general or local, male or female.
...

A fourth option is to communicate with the Church officer who has the power to correct or release the person thought to be in error or transgression. The Bible calls this “tell[ing] it unto the church.” (Matt. 18:17.) Modern scripture, in the revelation we call “the law of the Church,” describes this procedure:

“And if he or she confess not thou shalt deliver him or her up unto the church, not to the members, but to the elders. And it shall be done in a meeting, and that not before the world.” (D&C 42:89.)

Note the caution that this remedy is to be private—“not before the world.” This is not done in order to hide the facts, but rather to increase the chance that the correction will improve the life of a brother or sister.

I think we are too prone to condemn and judge each other, hence the constant exhoration to forgive and judge only "righteous judgment."  

I think it is quite possible to continue to admire and love someone who has erred.  I must love and forgive that person, as this is what the Lord wants us to do, and also because I want to be loved and forgiven.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bob Crockett]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is perhaps one of the reasons why the Lord has some confidentiality measures in place in terms of members (leaders) of the Church messing up:

I think we are too prone to condemn and judge each other, hence the constant exhoration to forgive and judge only "righteous judgment."  

I think it is quite possible to continue to admire and love someone who has erred.  I must love and forgive that person, as this is what the Lord wants us to do, and also because I want to be loved and forgiven.

Thanks,

-Smac

That is great advice and wise advice but doesn't work too well.  I've seen how it doesn't work at all.  Several times. The Church rarely takes action without a confession.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

The article is about Mormons.  Appropriate to have a picture of a Book of Mormon. 

Oddly, notwithstanding the views of many on this board, Mormons as a group are not far right-wing zealots for Trump.  There's a lot of hostility to Trump, including Romney's and the Deseret News' opposition.

Boy in my experience is seems like most the Mormons I know are big time Trump supporters. And Mormons in Utah went for Trump by a large majority.

[smac97]

26 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

That is great advice and wise advice but doesn't work too well.  I've seen how it doesn't work at all.  Several times. The Church rarely takes action without a confession.

I think bishops are not predisposed to go looking for reasons to discipline people.  

In my ward we had an instance where we became aware of criminal charges against a member of the ward.  We knew he had been arrested, and I - being in the bishopric and also a lawyer - was able to look on the court docket.  I noted that he had some serious charges pending against him and notified the bishop.  The bishop, to his credit, followed the handbook instructions and convened a disciplinary council once a guilty plea had been entered.  So the process can work, but as a practical matter bishops are generally not situated to be aware of serious misconduct unless A) the individual confesses, or B) someone with knowledge of the misconduct (usually a family member) reports it to the bishop.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

...............  The church has directly made statements about energy healing, etc. .............

I think of energy healing as one example.  It still seems to be rampant in the church and openly discussed and practiced without fear of judgment or social stigma. ............

Yep, crystals and healing stones are out there among the members.  You don't have to know what anthroposophy is to engage in that sort of thing, and Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow are both getting their comeuppance for similarly wild claims and beliefs.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

................  We are a religion known for strict adherence to the words of our leaders. 

LDS leaders probably wish that this were true, but there are plenty of members who are far from strictly obedient.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

..............   And of course, masks is another area.  Even after all that has been said on masks from the apostles and even when the area presidency sent out their letter to all members and wards/stakes in Utah, many still attended church etc. without masks. ...............

And the anti-vaxxers . ...

[Robert F. Smith]

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Boy in my experience is seems like most the Mormons I know are big time Trump supporters. And Mormons in Utah went for Trump by a large majority.

Actually, Utahns gave Trumpf only a plurality (45.5%).  Many LDS members find him disgusting, and with good reason.

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Utah was won by Trump, who won the state with 45.5 percent of the vote, the lowest percentage for any Republican since George H. W. Bush in 1992.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_Utah

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Found a screenshot as it is no longer current on the church site…and Rowe did get excommunicated eventually as she got more extreme.

When was Rowe excommunicated?

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When was Rowe excommunicated?

In May of 2019.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In May of 2019.

Quite a while ago, then. Guess I missed it. Not that I assiduously follow such things. 

[Bob Crockett]

47 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think bishops are not predisposed to go looking for reasons to discipline people.  

In my ward we had an instance where we became aware of criminal charges against a member of the ward.  We knew he had been arrested, and I - being in the bishopric and also a lawyer - was able to look on the court docket.  I noted that he had some serious charges pending against him and notified the bishop.  The bishop, to his credit, followed the handbook instructions and convened a disciplinary council once a guilty plea had been entered.  So the process can work, but as a practical matter bishops are generally not situated to be aware of serious misconduct unless A) the individual confesses, or B) someone with knowledge of the misconduct (usually a family member) reports it to the bishop.

Thanks,

-Smac

I got a civil jury verdict against a bishop who admitted to bank fraud. He employed YW from his ward who submitted loan draw requests using bogus names. At the urging of an LDS partner I packaged the trial file up to the Seventy in charge because the bishop got his SP to support him at trial with his supportive attendance.  The Seventy kicked it back to the SP who ignored my letter. 

It was rough.  But I learned the church just wasn't interested in civil fraud. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

both getting their comeuppance for similarly wild claims and beliefs

Not really.  They are getting their day in court for killing people.  Big difference.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Quite a while ago, then. Guess I missed it. Not that I assiduously follow such things. 

She dropped off the radar of mainstream (her book had been the top seller in the Mormon market) after the spurious materials thing.  Her books got pulled from Deseretbook iirc, though I vaguely remember the overstock lingered a bit at Seagull.  Could be wrong.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

But I learned the church just wasn't interested in civil fraud. 

Given the involvement of the youth, I am absolutely shocked.

I would have thought that was criminal behaviour.  What makes false name applications for bank fraud only civil?

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

This news article popped up in my yahoo news feed this morning, but what caught my eye wasn't the headline, but the picture attached to it:  someone holding a Book of Mormon.

The talking points at the end of the article deal with how the leaders of the church should handle this movement, and that's what I'm specifically wondering about in this thread.  What should our leaders do?  What shouldn't they do?  What is the best way for us as members and for the church to distance ourselves from these idiots who are dragging the church through the mud?

No politics. 
 

As long as the Church continues to teach the Constitution of the United States is inspired of God, that the unrepentant gentiles in the American promised land will have to repent and accept Christ or be swept off, and that God pronounces curses on certain human bloodlines, the middle of the road members of the Church will never be able to distance themselves far enough from the conservative members to escape the prophesied coming wrath that the woke, cancel culture progressives of the world will soon pour out upon the entire Church.

Edited August 9, 2021 by teddyaware

[Ipod Touch]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

God pronounces curses on certain human bloodlines

This is hot nonsense

[Bob Crockett]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

Given the involvement of the youth, I am absolutely shocked.

I would have thought that was criminal behaviour.  What makes false name applications for bank fraud only civil?

Most DAs don't have time for this. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Most DAs don't have time for this. 

So is it breaking the law behaviour, just not enforced much by law enforcement, but by civil suits?  Counts as misdemeanors maybe? (Just checked, those can still get jail time, so I don’t know the correct term)

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

As long as the Church continues to teach the Constitution of the United States is inspired of God, that the unrepentant gentiles in the American promised land will have to repent and accept Christ or be swept off, and that God pronounces curses on certain human bloodlines, the middle of the road members of the Church will never be able to distance themselves far enough from the conservative members to escape the prophesied coming wrath that the woke, cancel culture progressives of the world will soon pour out upon the entire Church.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. 

Most conservative members feel the same way about Deznat that liberal members do-they want nothing to do with them.  We can't lump conservatives and Deseret Nationalists together.  That's like saying that all mammals are cats.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Not really.  They are getting their day in court for killing people.  Big difference.

It was their weird beliefs which led to murder.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It was their weird beliefs which led to murder.

Possibly.  I think it was more lust, greed, and pride that led to it and the weird beliefs.  I think Daybell altered the beliefs he pushed to justify his philandering and removal of her kids and his wife.  She wasn’t the only one he used the “you were my wife in a previous life” line on.  And the closest friend describes the beliefs as getting more extreme after the adultery, at least emotional, if not physical, had started.   I don’t even know if he believes them given how he coached Rowe on what to write in her book.  My bet is he doesn’t believe, but she does as long as they are what she wants to hear.

The only True Believer IMO was her brother, Alex, and he didn’t sound particularly devoted to anything but his sister.  His lifestyle was not temple worthy as far as I can tell.

Daybell had used his visions to manipulate his late wife for years.  Her grandmother appeared to him to tell her she was spending too much time on fun and needed to redevote herself to her family, he had a vision they needed to move to .Idaho away from her family and closer to his group that fawned on him.

 LVD had emptied Charles’ business account once already to fund her trip to Hawaii on her own.  There was a million dollar life insurance policy LVD thought was coming to her and more than likely CD knew about.  He also raised his wife’s insurance to the max shortly before she died.  And no harm came to the adult kids, just the two that would have required a significant part of the insurance money (she collected SS checks from the government for both after they died) and attention.  Tylee was a witness to the murder of Charles Vallow and was 16/almost 17 when killed, old enough to start asking for the money from her inheritance from her dad (LVD’s 3rd husband), money that LVD had put in her own account.  Once Tylee, the live in babysitter of JJ, a high needs child, was dead, hardly surprising JJ died a week later iirc.  LVD was reported by her stepsons to be off running around leaving the kids to care for themselves even before she went bonkers.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

And they didn’t head for the hills to wait out the end of the world with the prepping stuff he was telling others to gather, but they went to Hawaii and lived in resorts off insurance money.

Before she met Daybell, she had talked her bother into tazing her exhusband, who had a heart condition.  Cox tried to put a hit on the father while he was in prison for tazing him.  LVD had even conned Charles into attacking someone…all in defense of Tylee and Colby who she coached to believe their dad had assaulted them and used his getting shared custody as an excuse to move to Hawaii.

If she believes this stuff, it is because she conned herself into belief because it gave her what she wanted.  And him believing…not seeing any sign in his life where he sacrificed anything for his belief and tons of signs beliefs very conveniently appeared when they benefitted him.  And there’s o sign of anything but fear and a desire to be liked, given attention in his behaviour since they got caught.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm