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Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…


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4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have appealed to the CDC mask guidelines and reproduced them here several times without effect. If they are not the Gold Standard, than why do we bother funding them?

Because the CDC does things that aren't mask guidelines.

I guess we could create another identical entity except with a better mask guideline policy but it seems like the long way around.

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29 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I'm more interested in statistical science rather than what "multiple doctors" are saying.  Do you have any published reports based on statistical science which say that the COVID vaccines pose an unacceptable risk?  (There aren't any.)  Do you even know what statistical science might be?

I accept the proposition that contracting Covid leads to better immunity than obtaining a vaccine, but reliance upon that argument would read out of public health the need to ever obtain a vaccine. I fully accept the proposition that public health officials are, in huge part, boneheaded nincompoops, but private industry is behind the vaccines.  

I'm also fascinated to see that the anti-vax crusade seems to be coming from the pro-Trump right.  I wonder why that might be.

You mean that guy who put into play the successful effort to create a vaccine ASAP? Whatever one thinks of him, at least give a brief nod to his efforts.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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9 minutes ago, Chum said:

Because the CDC does things that aren't mask guidelines.

I guess we could create another identical entity except with a better mask guideline policy but it seems like the long way around.

Zzzzzzzzzzooooooommmmmm.................right over his head. :)

Edited by Bernard Gui
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3 hours ago, juliann said:

"You two"? I have not discussed any of this with Gui before wandering into a message board thread. What is with the paranoia? 

Paranoia?  I am not suggesting a conspiracy.  You are misreading me.  

3 hours ago, juliann said:

And now you are throwing in politics just as you attempted to paint me as an anti-masker, what the heck does Republican have to do with what masks are made of and how they fit????? 

I never accused you of being an anti-masker, or even insinuated as much.  As far as politics, you insinuated that Fauci has been dishonest about masks from the beginning (a common, and untrue, political gripe), causing people to turn up their noses to him.  You made mocking comments about the leading parties not doing their jobs and therefore being responsible for much death, while "negligent leaders enjoying their cheesecake".    The fact that I have never seen you once come after an anti-masker for saying that "masks don't work" but instead choose to come after me for countering that "masks do work" - accusing me of causing more harm than good (but say nothing of the anti-maskers efforts) -  I find that highly suspect of playing politics.  Call me crazy!

 

Edited by pogi
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On 8/8/2021 at 6:26 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It’s now (since the article was published) become more clear that the delta variant is able to infect the vaccinated, though data still suggests good protection against severe disease.

My stepdaughter and her husband both got fully vaccinated, but a few months ago the government here in the UK said it was OK for children to go back to school, whereupon the kids brought home covid. And the fully vaccinated parents both came down with covid. This was before the delta variant showed up. They've both recovered, though not yet completely.

It seems that vaxxing won't fully work for all people. But because it does seem to keep symptoms from being severe, it's still a good idea.

I have a feeling that we're all going to come down with covid eventually. No matter what we do.

 

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6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You mean that guy who put into play the successful effort to create a vaccine ASAP? Whatever one thinks of him, at least give a brief nod to his efforts.

Okay. What are some things that didn't start happening until his efforts put them into play?

That said, most of my mRNA nods would go to Katalin Karikó.

Also I can't bring myself to lionize PotUS's, ever - tho I'm inclined to be mindful of how difficult a job it is.

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6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Paranoia?  I am not suggesting a conspiracy.  You are misreading me.  

I never accused you of being an anti-masker, or even insinuated as much.  As far as politics, you insinuated that Fauci has been dishonest about masks from the beginning (a common, and untrue, political gripe), causing people to turn up their noses to him.  You made mocking comments about the leading parties not doing their jobs and therefore being responsible for much death, while "negligent leaders enjoying their cheesecake".    The fact that I have never seen you once come after an anti-masker for saying that "masks don't work" but instead choose to come after me for countering that "masks do work" - accusing me of causing more harm than good (but say nothing of the anti-maskers efforts).  I find that highly suspect of playing politics.  Call me crazy!

 

There IS some evidence that Fauci has been dishonest about a lot of things. including his denial that the US government was involved in financing bat coronavirus research at the lab in Wuhan, China. What else has he been dishonest about?

The Intercept, which is by no means a right-wing source, has released the following, part of which I quote below. Is The Intercept reliable? I take anything they say with a large grain of salt, but...

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NEWLY RELEASED DOCUMENTS provide details of U.S.-funded research on several types of coronaviruses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China. The Intercept has obtained more than 900 pages of documents detailing the work of EcoHealth Alliance, a U.S.-based health organization that used federal money to fund bat coronavirus research at the Chinese laboratory. The trove of documents includes two previously unpublished grant proposals that were funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, as well as project updates relating to EcoHealth Alliance’s research, which has been scrutinized amid increased interest in the origins of the pandemic.

The documents were released in connection with ongoing Freedom of Information Act litigation by The Intercept against the National Institutes of Health. The Intercept is making the full documents available to the public.

....

According to Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University, the documents contain critical information about the research done in Wuhan, including about the creation of novel viruses. “The viruses they constructed were tested for their ability to infect mice that were engineered to display human type receptors on their cell,” Ebright wrote to The Intercept after reviewing the documents.

 

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9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

here in the UK said it was OK for children to go back to school, whereupon the kids brought home covid.

Yep. That's the effective Florida plan too. I've first hand experience it works. An employee here got it from her daughter and spread it thru the company. The building mostly emptied out. Productivity, wages and earnings have nosedived for weeks - so far.

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Just now, Stargazer said:

Is The Intercept reliable?

As the news org that dragged the rest of the US Press into reporting on US Gov's Patriot Act surveillance abuses, they earned some default trust from me.

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, to be fair, after I smoked the peace pipe (I don''t recall you inhaling with me, but maybe I missed it) you call me out twice now. Interesting.

Yes, you are way off base in so many ways and have indulged in wrong perceptions. I have clarified my position a number of times. Maybe you missed those.

No, I have not insisted on perfection. Nope. Just implementation of the best practices. That is not unreasonable or unattainable.

No, I have not made every effort seem futile nor have I painted a picture of an insurmountable hill with futility under every rock. I have made concrete proposals that I believe would  help the situation and that are easily doable, inexpensive, and reasonable. Perhaps you missed those.

Yes, it is hard to take authorities seriously when they give mixed and confusing messages and recklessly flaunt the very recommendations and mandates they make. They are like trumpeters on the wall who play an uncertain call.

It's ok that you think your approach is superior to mine. I don't mind that at all. I wasn't aware that my call for more clarity, consistency, and common sense is rippling in such powerful fashion across the Fruited Plains. Do you have a source for that? Seems to me that the government, media, and celebrities would be doing a good thing by following their own guidelines and mandates, but apparently you think that is not necessary. OK. 

Do I honestly have problems with masked mandates except that they are not consistent? Haven't I made that crystal clear? Unless you think I am being dishonest. 

I don't really want consistent mandates across the board? I have no idea what this means.

Yes, I must have missed your clarifications where it clearly states that you are friendly towards mask mandates and masks (despite imperfect compliance with protocols).  Maybe you can direct me there. 

Never once have you ever defended me against anti-maskers.  Not once.  You typically join in on posting misleading articles and bogus facts that cause people to doubt masks and their efficacy unless perfect compliance is achieved.  You always join up with ant maskers against me.  Every.  Single.  Time.  masks come up between us.  

You have said several times (I have looked at your history) that unless people follow all the CDC guidelines, masks cause more harm than good.  Let me ask you then, do you think perfection is a realistic goal?  If not, how is this not insurmountable?  How does this not render masks useless?   You have posted those very CDC guidelines showing how unattainable they are and that "nobody" follows them - not even you.   That leaves little hope.  Very defeatist.  I am surprised you can't see this tone in yourself. 

As far as "consistent mandates across the board" goes - you griped earlier that your local leaders did not implement consistent mandates - requiring it in some places, but not in sports arenas, etc.  It comes of as political posturing.  You don't really want consistent mandates across the board (as in the arenas, etc. too) do you?  You just like to play politics and point out political inconsistencies but would probably be happier to see the mandates go away all together, rather than seeing perfect consistency on their parts...am I wrong?

You say that you have only insisted on "implementation of the best practices" and that that is "not unreasonable or unattainable".   Please tell me Bernard, just what are those best practices?  The ones posted by the CDC which you have previously mocked as being unrealistic and unreasonable for the public to adhere to?

 

Edited by pogi
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17 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

There IS some evidence that Fauci has been dishonest about a lot of things. including his denial that the US government was involved in financing bat coronavirus research at the lab in Wuhan, China. What else has he been dishonest about?

That wasn't the claim and is a derail.  We can talk about that elsewhere but has nothing to do with masks.   

The claim was that Fauci lied about masks from the beginning causing people to turn up their noses to him. 

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So much public misinformation is created by popular entertainers. I love Jimmy Kimmel's solution for opening up hospital beds which was cheered by the audience.

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Jimmy Kimmel returned from his summer hiatus Tuesday, sharing his blunt thoughts on those who've chosen not to get the coronavirus vaccine. In his opening monologue, the comedian said unvaccinated people should not take up ICU beds in hospitals. Kimmel then noted that it wasn't a very happy Labor Day weekend as coronavirus cases are up 300% from a year ago. 

"Dr. Fauci said if hospitals get any more crowded they're going to have to make some very tough choices about who gets an ICU bed," Kimmel said. "That choice doesn't seem so tough to me," he continued. "Vaccinated person having a heart attack? Yes, come right on in, we'll take care of you. Unvaccinated guy who gobbled horse goo? Rest in peace, wheezy." https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/jimmy-kimmel-says-unvaccinated-people-shouldn-t-get-icu-beds-in-hospitals/ar-AAOe7Tx?li=BBnb2gh

🙃 alert.  That is really, really funny! People dying is always a hoot. Especially when their death is payback from their own foolish actions. 

Let's play that out to its logical conclusion.

Overweight people who contract the virus and go to the hospital. Smokers who are dying of lung cancer. Diabetics who don't control sugar levels. Drivers who drink and drive or don't wear seat belts. Tweakers who just be tweakers. Pedestrians who do not look both ways when crossing the street. Motorcyclists who don't wear helmets. Folks who get AIDS. Swimmers who ignore the riptide warnings. Gourmands who eat fugu. Junkies who shoot up with used needles. Kids who play with fire. The list is endless. So many beds could be freed up! 

Rest in peace, all you fools! 

QED

End 🙃 alert.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 minute ago, pogi said:

Never once have you ever defended me against anti-maskers.  Not once.  You typically join in on posting misleading articles and bogus facts that cause people to doubt masks and their efficacy unless perfect compliance is achieved.  You always join up with ant maskers against me.  Every.  Single.  Time.  masks come up between us.  

This jibes with what I've seen. However if this isn't the full picture, I'd welcome links to posts that complete it.

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6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So much public misinformation is created by popular entertainers. I love Jimmy Kimmel's solution for opening up hospital beds which was cheered by the audience.

🙃 alert.  That is really, really funny! People dying is always a hoot. Especially when their death is payback from their own foolish actions. 

Let's play that out to its logical conclusion.

Overweight people who contract the virus and go to the hospital. Smokers who are dying of lung cancer. Diabetics who don't control sugar levels. Drivers who drink and drive or don't wear seat belts. Tweakers who just be tweakers. Pedestrians who do not look both ways when crossing the street. Motorcyclists who don't wear helmets. Swimmers who ignore the riptide warnings. Gourmands who eat fugu. Junkies who shoot up with used needles. Kids who play with fire. The list is endless. So many beds could be freed up! 

 

What would you say is the specific, meaningfully important issue you seek to resolve by highlighting this?

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21 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

My stepdaughter and her husband both got fully vaccinated, but a few months ago the government here in the UK said it was OK for children to go back to school, whereupon the kids brought home covid. And the fully vaccinated parents both came down with covid. This was before the delta variant showed up. They've both recovered, though not yet completely.

It seems that vaxxing won't fully work for all people. But because it does seem to keep symptoms from being severe, it's still a good idea.

I have a feeling that we're all going to come down with covid eventually. No matter what we do.

 

My son Artisticosso is mending from DeltaCOVID. Fully vaccinated, masked, working from home. Quarantining. No known contacts with infected folks. 6/10 on the FLUmisery scale. No one else in the house testing positive.

Oh, Brother Gazer! Or is that geezer? 😚

🙃 alert. 

How can you be so fatalistic? I happen to share that sentiment. It's in the mix now, but what do I know? I'm a violinist, not a scientist, Jim.

End  🙃 alert. 

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9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My son ... is mending from DeltaCOVID. Fully vaccinated, masked, working from home. Quarantining. No known contacts with infected folks. 6/10 on the FLUmisery scale. No one else in the house testing positive.

I'm sorry it found him. I am also glad for the impact reduction that the vaccine provided.

Edited by Chum
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3 hours ago, Chum said:

It was not to us. The reason is that the nature of this sort of dialog has changed in the last half-doz years, especially since early 2020.

Anti-health propaganda is dominating Covid discussions. One common attack vector is to deliver incomplete messages that tend to sow FUD by leveraging natural assumptions that most people are going to make.

 

Ohhhh....you should have explained that sooner!  If you can't attribute conversations back to 2020 to B, then you can't be expected to pay the least bit of attention to what she actually said. Got it. 

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One example is to repeatedly state the ways that masks don't work while usually leaving out how masks do indeed work and save lives.

Did that happen back in 2020, too? Because those you are misattributing statements to have not left out how masks do work. In fact, that has the been the very basis of the objection to encouraging people to wear masks that are known NOT to work.  Because there are readily available tested masks that DO provide a high percentage of protection if worn correctly.  I can keep going if you need me to. 

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27 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I must have missed your clarifications where it clearly states that you are friendly towards mask mandates and masks (despite imperfect compliance with protocols).  Maybe you can direct me there. 

Never once have you ever defended me against anti-maskers.  Not once.  You typically join in on posting misleading articles and bogus facts that cause people to doubt masks and their efficacy unless perfect compliance is achieved.  You always join up with ant maskers against me.  Every.  Single.  Time.  masks come up between us.  

 

 

Pogi, this is to Gui, but your railing at me seems to follow the same stream of thought that originates with "you didn't defend me." But it isn't about you, it is about advocating for any crummy mask (because in this false dilemma it is better than nothing) when effective ones are readily available. You have required us to explain those "clarifications" over and over and over and over and over and over to the point it has become a derail. 

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30 minutes ago, pogi said:

That wasn't the claim and is a derail.  We can talk about that elsewhere but has nothing to do with masks.   

The claim was that Fauci lied about masks from the beginning causing people to turn up their noses to him. 

Are you going to deny that Fauci told people not to wear masks because they didn't work at the start of the pandemic? Cause it won't work to say he wasn't lying, if that is where you are going, he admitted it. 

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Just now, juliann said:

Ohhhh....you should have explained that sooner!  If you can't attribute conversations back to 2020 to B, then you can't be expected to pay the least bit of attention to what she actually said. Got it. 

It's not clear what this hostile sounding snark is trying to say or why my non-combative post deserves it.

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Did that happen back in 2020, too?

That's a weird thing to ask.

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Because those you are misattributing statements to have not left out how masks do work.

Post after post after post about the failure of masks omit any reference to the benefit of masking. So yeah. It's precisely as I described.

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31 minutes ago, juliann said:

Are you going to deny that Fauci told people not to wear masks because they didn't work at the start of the pandemic? 

Yes, I am going to deny that.

Fauci never said that masks don't work - you are thinking of the US Attorney General.  He did however recommend that the general public not use them (there were literally 5 cases in the entire US at the time), because people were in a hording mentality and were making them scarce for hospital workers.  

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, juliann said:

Pogi, this is to Gui, but your railing at me seems to follow the same stream of thought that originates with "you didn't defend me." But it isn't about you, it is about advocating for any crummy mask (because in this false dilemma it is better than nothing) when effective ones are readily available. You have required us to explain those "clarifications" over and over and over and over and over and over to the point it has become a derail. 

Julian, I am not advocating for any "crummy mask".  That is not true.  I have always advocated that people wear the best masks possible, including double masking.  What I have attacked is the idea that a fabric mask - (which are not all "crummy", by the way) are somehow inferior to no mask.   Honest question, whenever someone argues that "masks don't work" and I contend that "masks do work" (and you erroneously interpret me as saying that all masks are equal) why don't you ever join up against our common enemy?  Perhaps because you don't view him as an enemy, right?  He is your political base...  An enemy of the devil (Fauci/Biden) is a friend of mine, type of thing.  Not political for you though, right?

Edited by pogi
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13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I must have missed your clarifications where it clearly states that you are friendly towards mask mandates and masks (despite imperfect compliance with protocols).  Maybe you can direct me there. 

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I have never rejected their findings. In fact, I have appealed to them in other discussions about masks. For all I know they may be spot on. 

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Where do I stand on masking? That’s simple. I believe it can have some positive effect when observed properly. From what I can tell, that is the scientific consensus.

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The problem is the vast majority of folks that I observe who don’t spring for N95 or NK95 masks. If we are serious about mask mandates, then mandate those. And take measures to enforce proper mask protocols

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If things are as serious as we are led to believe, then I would like to see emphasis on the protocols that make masks as effective as possible instead of the constant social shaming, self-righteous chest-beating, threats, and intimidation. Repeating the “mask up” mantra over and over and over without teaching what that actually means scientifically is a great disservice. It gives a false sense of security. It sews the seeds of doubt and creates resistance. People in authority flaunting the rules they decree breeds contempt for the rules. This is where politics comes into play in earnest.

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...if we are serious about this, then we have to get more draconian, and that is a message most don’t want to hear. States should supply schools with enough proven masks for at least a change every 1.5 hours, no more My Pony cloth masks, better training of staff and students on scientific protocols and the means of support to deal with them, more trained staff to assist school nurses and teachers when things go south inside the masks, lots of money.  I don’t know. I’m a violinist, not a doctor, Jim. Or we can just tell kids to put something over their faces and call that good, which is what I see happening now. 

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In my perfect world, everything below 89% would be outta here and mass production of 90%+ would be priority 1.

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Why would anyone who is serious about stopping COVID wear or recommend wearing a mask that lets 50-75% of those bad little buggers through? Imagine an infield with that kind of leakage. Or a surgeon whose patients have a 26% chance of survival. No, no, no.

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The point is that there are masks readily available that provide 90%+ protection and here we are debating about cloth masks and studies that determine the efficacy of various types of inferior protection. Mass produce the 90%+ to drive the cost down, stop production, promotion, and sale of less effective masks, and strongly urge their exclusive use wherever possible. I think this is reasonable and doable.

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We are talking past each other, Brother Pogi. Getting as many as possible to wear the best masks and wearing them correctly as directed by science should be Priority 1.  This is reasonable and doable. It’s whistling in the wind to do anything less, if we are serious about stopping a pandemic.

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Debating and studying the efficacy of cloth masks etc. is a waste of time. If we know best practices and fail to utilize them we are not taking this seriously and doing a huge disservice to people. It’s not difficult to agree on that. 

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...if it’s the best possible response as far as masks are concerned then we should do it. I think it should have been done from the start. But it’s not being done. It’s misleading to give lists of types of masks with ranking of their supposed efficacy, but know they are really not as effective as the should be. The lack of action towards this end and the constant confusion suggests to me that people in authority don’t really think it’s that important of an issue.

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The inconsistent messages, the contradicting reports and mandates, endorsing less effective masks such as cloth, not providing clear guidelines forcing you to search them out in websites, all this and more feed incredulity and resistance. It’s irresponsible and easily fixable.  

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We don’t have to settle for 0% or 20%. Why are we even talking about that choice? I’m for providing the best equipment and teaching the best procedures. I doubt there is anyone who follows even a few of the CDC guidelines. They are not taught at the public level. I’ll bet the vast majority of people don’t even know they exist. They are inconvenient. expensive, and time consuming, yet the CDC explicitly states that not following them  reduces mask efficacy and can actually increase the risk of infecting self or others. Have you heard this from the media? No, just constant scare stories. I don’t understand why this situation is allowed to continue. If you question it you are marginalized as an uncaring science-denying right-wing troglodyte toad-sucking hick conspiracy-theorist bigot.

Why should we settle for less than the best? Isn’t anyone curious why less effective masks are promoted with little or no mention by authorities that better ones offer more protection and teaching the correct way to use them is crucial? 

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No, we don’t need to take what we can get. If we are serious about this we need to have the best. That is totally within our reach. Mass produce the best, eliminate the rest, teach to the test. It’s so simple. Shoot! Put Unicorns and Superheroes on them if you want. Good masks can be made as marketable as less effective ones.  I think studying non-medical masks is a waste of time and resources IMO. We have known what is best from the start.

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 it would be simple to stop the promotion and sale of less effective equipment and practices and replace them with better ones. Why not?

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[How do we get better masks?]...it’s more important how you use them. Giving a kid a Stradivarius and a pair of shoes will not help her play and dance like Lindsey Stirling. 

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If they are really concerned about reducing the carnage, serious actors in government and industry can get together and agree that it would best to mass produce, market, and distribute the best equipment….free to all if that would help…, and media, celebrities, and educators could disseminate the best science aka CDC guidelines to the public. Bill Gates and George Soros could fund Great Masks for Everyone. Get a free Starbucks latte if you wear a good mask.  

How hard would it be for social media to include a couple of CDC guidelines along with their automatic condescending fact-check messages that they attach every time a word associated with COVID is mentioned in a post? As easy as a few clicks in the keyboard. 

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I think the folks with the influence could and should do a better job when it comes to masks. Do you think they are the top of their game? Since this is couched as a life or death issue, I think they should be. By that I mean being more consistent in their words and deeds.

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For the record:

I have never ever been an anti-masker. I have complied with all state and church mandates regarding COVID whether or not I agree with them.

I have not called for less stringent measures. I have identified the hypocrisy and illogic of requiring masks but promoting the use of inferior masks and initials teaching the CDC guidelines for their use.   

I do not find regulations to be ill-informed but I do find their implementation to be  inconsistent and confusing.

If the governor mandated n95 masks and correct implementation I would applaud him. 

I would cheer any efforts to encourage the correct use of the best masks. 

We are told we can kill or be killed by others if we don’t mask up. That sounds serious to me. If it is that dire, then I believe our media and government should do more than make cavalier social mandates to mask up. If we are told to believe the science, then we need the complete and correct scientific information.

 

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