Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[pogi]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2021/airlines-and-some-countries-are-now-banning-cloth-masks-should-the-us/

With so much heated debate about the efficacy of masks, you would think we would have clear and convincing details about which masks work and which ones are fairly worthless.

Some international airlines are now banning cloth masks. European governments encourage people to wear medical masks, but the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention dissuades Americans from using N95 masks to ensure there will be enough of them for medical workers. The CDC also does not say to ditch cloth masks as other countries are doing.

There is plenty of data on how effective different masks are.  This doesn't mean that private industries like airlines or politicians are going to utilize this data well.   Cloth masks work to reduce transmission - some better than others.  We have posted that data here several times and in several different ways - so has the CDC.   So far, I have not seen a single mask tested approach 0% efficacy. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by pogi

[Chum]

20 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Something else is going on here, especially given how poorly the vaccines are working against the delta variant. 

Moderna is 76%. Pfizer is 42%. J&J is about 55%. Typical flu vaccines rage from 10% to 60%.

The claim that vaccines work poorly against the Delta variant is False. Media sources that make that claim are lying.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Haha, it is also a horse de-wormer, haha, and billy bob might have taken it, hoho hehe.  But there are doctors that believe and have patients to prove that it works.  Why not let them take it? 

We do let them take it. We also let them call poison control afterward.

The path for US Drs to prescribe ivermectin (for Covid), is for ivermectin to pass thru 4 phases of clinical trials, so it is clinically shown to be safe and effective - for that prescription regimen & for the scale at which it is to be prescribed. 

The push to (avoid learning what rigorous testing will tell us and) just get ivermectin straight into bodies is distressing to reasonable people.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Chum

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

India had great results using ivermectin:  https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/national/ivermectin-obliterates-97-percent-of-delhi-cases/article_6a3be6b2-c31f-11eb-836d-2722d2325a08.html

Hmmm...

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/no-data-available-to-suggest-a-link-between-indias-reduction-of-covid-19-cases-and-the-use-of-ivermectin-jim-hoft-gateway-pundit/

India wan't using ivermectin prophylactically, there could therefore be no possible link between ivermectin use and a decline in "cases".  If it works for treatment it could help in treatment at hospitals and reduce death - strangely those numbers are not reported in this data. 

Ivermectin was also used in Peru before it had a crushing third wave.  No impact.  The only verifiable impact we have seen in reducing "cases" is vaccination and masks/distancing. 

What a mess this nonsense you are spreading is causing.  Lets wait for some good data first.  Please stop:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/oklahoma-doctor-ivermectin-covid-coronavirus

2 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Recently Joe Rogan got covid and used ivermectin among other medications and was over it in a couple of days.

So, he is like most cases who do nothing and get better in a few days?  Anectdotal data isn't helpful.  Do you think it would be hard to find a case who died from covid while on Ivermectin. 

Ivermectin will never replace vaccination as a prophylactic.  The prescription is very expensive and not intended for long-term/daily use.  There is some little evidence that it might be effective in treating (not preventing) Covid however.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8236126/  Every study I have seen though concludes "more research needed..."

It would be great to have an extra tool in treatment, lets not pretend like it will reduce "cases" however.  Recommending this as a daily prophylaxis is absolutely reckless and dangerous. 

You keep making this out to be a competition against vaccines.  Ivermectin will never replace vaccines.  It may find its place as a tool for treatment however...but lest stop comparing it to vaccines. 

[Chum]

54 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

What harm is there to you to let someone, after informed consent, to be part of an ivermectin experiment with their doctor? 

What I like about this question is we can test it's integrity by submitting all sorts of stuff in place of ivermectin.

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

From the study, pg 9:

Also,

And,

I cannot see how this comes close to our situation where masks are unregulated, untested, and people aren't given one to one instruction on how to wear them, let alone handed out effective masks and then approached by these "mask promoters" to make sure they were wearing them after they agreed to. I don't think many would contest that effective masks, worn properly and consistently, make a difference.

I also remember from this study that they didn't account for distancing.

Thanks. The cloth masks in this study still have a filtration amount that I've seen rated for most cloth masks that are more than a bandana or other shoddy single layer masks (not what I've seen sold at any store, BTW, actually sold as a face mask). Though they were manufactured in bangladesh, I don't see them as drastically different than what we have one market. 

The door to door is definitely different, but I would note having endorsements on what to do with a mask and varying forms of announcements on masks in the US aren't. Access in the US to both masks and info are going to differ than what one would expect or need from a bangladeshi villlage. 

Some of what was mentioned though with monitors in the community reminds me a lot of what happened at the height of mask wearing in the US, when mandates were more common and stores started to seriously jump on board/encourage it. there were people at the beginning of the store that would hand out masks and depending the store I went to, many workers would remind customers to wear them properly. Something similar happened when I went to CO recently to both a museum and a national park. Yes, it was not equally implemented.....some places were more adamant than others in compliance and easier to monitor for as much. But it did drastically increase how many were effectively wearing masks. Obviously there were still chin-strappers and nasal drippers running around. There were still a handful of people who chose the least effective masking (neck garters or bandanas) to wear. But there were far more wearing a relatively more effective mask consistently. Note I label anything that is a fairly solid cloth mask that generally fits properly and any form above that as "effective." 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited September 6, 2021 by BlueDreams

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Yet, there is this concerted effort to dissuade use simply because it is cheap

Source?

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Yet, there is this concerted effort to dissuade use simply because it might convince some otherwise healthy people to not get vaccinated.

Yes. That is one life-ending, health-damaging, hospital-filling reason to dissuade unproven ivermectin use over safe and effective vaccines.

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

This campaign against ivermectin is clearly because of the fear of competition with the vaccine narrative.

To which conspiracy media outlet shall we credit with this gem?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

 

You have never once addressed how your approach is effective at inspiring others to mask properly.  If you truly believe that masks work and can save lives, how is your naysaying approach helpful?  You rip on the approach of incapable politicians, but I don't see how you are any better than them in helping the mask cause.  If anything you are sewing more doubt with your antagonistic approach and whining about inconsistent mandates and hypocritical politicians and how that makes it sooooooooooooooo hard to just wear a mask.  It hasn't made it hard for most of us.  Regardless of what politicians say or do, you can always decide to do what is right and wear a mask.   You don't even try to hide the fact that it is politics which is getting in the way for you to support masks and become an ally.  This is the American cause.   Yes, politicians suck on both sides.  That is settled.  Now lets just do what is right (regardless of what they say or do) and support the American cause of masks (which implies wearing a mask properly). 

Yes, my wife has observed the class the entire day, which is only 3 hours.  The kids that wear masks do very, very well.  I have seen the same at church in primary.  they do better than most adults I see at church.  My son wears a fabric mask to school and it is in great condition every day he brings it home. He is not coughing and sneezing (for the most part) or throwing up, except when he is sick - in which case we keep him home.   We have several masks that we rotate and wash.  No problem whatsoever. 

Bernard, it is better that the children cough and sneeze in the masks - that is kind of the point of them.  If they catch droplets and snot/mucus from flying across the room, on their hands, door knobs etc - awesome!  They are working.   Truth is, if a kid is constantly coughing sneezing or needs to throw up, they shouldn't be at school in the first place!  Easy fix.  Most kindergarteners are not slimy slugs slithering around and dripping with snot and throw up as you make them out to be.   I am laughing at your characterization.  Mostly, kids are healthy without congestion and mucous.   If they are not, they shouldn't be at school.   I think you are WAY unrealistic as to the general health and respiratory condition of kindergarteners.  Kindergarteners are much more likely to obey in keeping their masks over their mouth and nose and leaving it on all day than adults are, from my observation.  

All that mess is better in their mask than out.  Simple as that. 

 

Hashed and rehashed no need to rerehash. Your lectures aren’t helpful.

Hardly as simple as that. Pathetic response. Your wife sees a class for three hours, no disrespect intended. Mine sees the class every day for 6.5 hours for 8 years.  I have taught music in all primary grades k-6 except 3rd. Have you? Probably not. If you had you would be embarrassed by the misinformation you are spreading. Especially in the face of a variant that now infects children. And we are the ones who have it all wrong! I am astonished by your hubris.

Once again with a wave of the hand you dismiss what you don’t like. And for someone who claims to be so well informed, it’s not that the purpose of the mask isn’t being served, it’s what you do with the stuff collecting in them for 7 hours while they are being worn.

Now where the rubber meets the road of reality, I ask again, “Have you seen primary schoolchildren’s masks at the end of the day?” Try this experiment: have your child put on a mask in the morning, wear it constantly for seven hours taking it off only when eating, and keep track of the number of times the CDC guidelines are violated. Take a thirty minute sardine-can bus ride with 60 other kids wearing masks Add a sneeze or a cough or two, some dancing and singing and yelling, lots of talking and laughing, some vigorous exercise and play. Look the mask over at the end of the day, and then ask yourself if this is meeting the scientific guidelines that determine a mask’s efficacy (the science). Then do it yourself. How many of these do you observe?

Once again, for your convenience…

Quote

Be sure to wash your hands or use hand sanitizer before putting on a mask.

Do NOT touch the mask when wearing it. If you have to often touch/adjust your mask, it doesn’t fit you properly, and you may need to find a different mask or make adjustments. 

Carefully untie the strings behind your head or stretch the ear loops

Handle only by the ear loops or ties

Fold the outside corners together

Be careful not to touch your eyes, nose, and mouth when removing and wash hands immediately after removing

Wash your hands with soap and water for at least 20 seconds or use hand sanitizer with at least 60% alcohol after touching or removing your mask

Masks should still be worn in addition to staying at least 6 feet apart, especially when indoors around people who don’t live in your household.

WEAR A MASK THAT

Covers your nose and mouth and secure it under your chin. Fits snugly against the sides of your face…Cloth masks and surgical masks do not provide an airtight fit across the side of your face 

DO NOT WEAR…

If mask is wet or dirty

Around your neck

On your forehead

Under your nose

Only on your nose

On your chin

Dangling from one ear

On your arm

Reusable masks should be washed whenever it gets dirty or at least daily. If you have a disposable face mask, throw it away after wearing it once. Always and wash your hands after handling or touching a used mask. Face shields are not as effective as masks

If you are taking off your mask to eat or drink outside of your home, you can place it somewhere safe to keep it clean, such as your pocket, purse, or paper bag. Make sure to wash or sanitize your hands after removing your mask. After eating, put the mask back on with the same side facing out. Be sure to wash or sanitize your hands again after putting your mask back on.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I got vaccinated but am wondering why the bad press over a possible non-vaccine cure.  The Tokyo Medical Association recommends it.  https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/breaking-news-chairman-of-tokyo-medical-association-tells-doctors-to-prescribe-ivermectin-for-covid-treatment

India had great results using ivermectin:  https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/national/ivermectin-obliterates-97-percent-of-delhi-cases/article_6a3be6b2-c31f-11eb-836d-2722d2325a08.html

Recently Joe Rogan got covid and used ivermectin among other medications and was over it in a couple of days.

At a proper dose, it is both safe and seems to be effective.  Yet the media is beside itself when it is discussed as if it is being paid by their biggest advertiser to fight against the competition.  https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gunshot-victims-horse-dewormer-ivermectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/  

Shouldn't we be looking everywhere for a solution to this?  Everywhere except that devil ivermectin that doesn't have any adverse side effects and is cheap?  I'd rather not go on the booster shot treadmill if there is an alternative.  So, study away is the correct thing to do and while scientists are at it, perhaps they should study why the safe and effective vaccine needs booster shots.

 

This is interesting.

A cure is not a prevention -- why is ivermectin (or any treatment for those sick with COVID-19) an exception to the adage -- what make it better to treat than prevent? How do those in treatment and hopefully cured prevent others who had been exposed to them from getting sick, and not getting cured? Why rely on media articles when the Church Handbook advises people with questions about their medical treatment to consult with their doctor -- presumably one acting competently, ethically and legally? Why is treatment a better alternative to prevention by vaccine, booster and the other precautions?

These are essentially rhetorical questions, unless answered after consultation with your doctor.

 

[Chum]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have taught music in all primary grades k-6 except 3rd. Have you?

What methods do you feel would reduce Covid rates in lower primary grades?

What methods do you feel would reduce Covid rates in upper primary grades?

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

In other words, we need to walk in the "other side's" shoes. As part of a conversation about Elder Holland's speech to the YU faculty/staff with someone very upset about it, before getting into the rationale for differing points of view, I suggested an approach I take when someone comes at me upset about something the leaders said or did. In this case, I hadn't read the transcript and hadn't thought about the speech -- the topic was discussed on this board but I don't recall participating, but I was somewhat aware of it -- so having been prepped for lots of trigger points, I shared the following approach:

1.      Read the speech/talk trying to understand the intended message that can be applied by all who hear it (pray first and maintain the companionship of the Holy Ghost).

2.      Read the talk from the point of view of the primary audience (in this case, faculty and staff), and how the secondary audience (in this case, students and others) might follow suit on those points they have in common with the primary audience.

3.      Read the talk and pick out those points reported as problematic and compare with 1 and 2.

4.      Whether speaking or listening, identify feelings concerning the spirit of contention, charity, closeness to the Spirit, the other characteristics in Mosiah 3:19 as a guide to the Lord’s approval of the communication.

5.      Assume that the person with an opposing view has prayed about their position, believes and acts in good faith, and that God loves them, is with them, and is guiding them into His fold.

I am sure something helpful can be added to this this, but I think the approach favors mutual human empathy over competing data points and the assumption that the other is wrong, or has something wrong with them, period.

I meant that more of an expression of generally differing “sides” openly disagreeing with something said by church leadership. 
 

but it reminds me of another thing I’ve been learning this year: the limits of empathy/understanding. That’s one of my go-to tools when it comes to interacting with people in general.  But the pandemic is another beast. 
you mentioned this earlier to pogi: 

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I am talking about reaching those who are hesitant using this particular rationale that heeding counsel about earrings equals heeding counsel obedience to vaccines. That has been use enough in these threads to warrant some attention. The data wars aren't cutting it. The communication needs to become more foundational to resonate across the board.

I’ve done this with at least one of these cousins I mentioned above. When I got vaxxed, I was one of the first in my family/friends to do so. So I made a public post about it and left it open to anyone who wanted to talk to me about it to do so with no shame or judgment involved. I was desperate just to reach those around me as best I could to gently encourage vaccination. I practiced what I preached and kindly answered every concern after listening and empathizing with them. During this Said cuz wanted to dm me and talk privately. So we did, she shared her concerns, I told her mine and my experience with the vaccine as well as what I knew. She was appreciative and there was no offense or a negative experience she took from the convo. The next day she posted another critical anti-vax oriented meme. 

I’ve had a few vax hesitant or waiting people in my life that I had more direct contact with besides her. One was my step-mom the other was my other cousin. Both got vaxxed. What did work for them? For my step-mom, boundaries on seeing the grandbaby. As in we’ll be coming by and you can have face-to-face time with grandchild once you’re vaxxed. Same was given to all the family as a qualification to all my close relatives. (To be fair, her hesitation was more to do with a fear of needles than anything else and for other parts of my family it was just making time for it). For the other cuz, it was more info that filled in some of her questions. 

I’ve worked to understand my people and moreso the the issues around this general. I agree that info wars especially aren’t super effective. People will find info to back their opinion no matter what. But I’ve found empathy also has its limits in this too. It allows people to believe that my opinion is as equally valid as their’s and it’s all just a matter of perspective and differing priorities.  Which isn’t true. But the other problem I’ve seen is that for many most adament or set not vaxxing is they also don’t have an off ramp to manage being wrong. Be wrong or pointing out huge gaping problems in their assertions, even when it is done without shaming language, Is often still taken as shaming or judging them or some such response that allows them to remain the victim or underdog of simply having “different conclusions” or “concerns”. Meanwhile, ironically, I’ve yet to see a post against vaccination that doesn’t throw judging language or demeaning terms to describe the vaccine and/or those insisting it’s needed. 

My main question at this point is how do we get people to earnestly acknowledge and accept they may be wrong? How do we really “reach” those who seem to be made of Teflon when it comes to more accurate information, accounts of covid death and suffering, kind corrections from friends or family, and religious counsel?  Cuz i got nothing for those most earnestly choosing this hill to (sometime literally) die on. But it does make me think that we may have a spiritual deficit in learning how to confront that we will be wrong and gracefully take accountability and repent. 
 

with luv, 

BD 
 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by BlueDreams

[Rain]

5 hours ago, juliann said:

But you wear a N95 which means that you don't believe all masks are effective. That is exactly my point. 

 

 But the least effective masks were those most people are likely wearing. I can't think of one thing I would do if there was a 26% chance of my being safe while doing it. But we have a world now loudly proclaiming that "masks" will make us safe. 

Maybe that's the difference - I've never once thought someone or some source was saying masks make us "safe".  What I have always seen or read or heard I saw as "safer".  

And I don't think of it as "there is a 26% chance of me being safe if I do this."  Rather I think more like "since I'm going to do this (shop, go to church, go to work etc) then I might as well do this really easy thing and make it 26% more safe."

I can and have upgraded my masks, but I can't and don't want to control others.   So if they wear a 26% mask then I am grateful they are actually wearing something even if I prefer they wear a better one.

5 hours ago, juliann said:

 

All that study proves is that if a group of researchers who obviously know what makes a mask safer, makes your masks and trains you how to wear them, you will be, well, safer. I don't think that was ever in question.  It did not test anyone wearing cheap off the shelf masks with gaping gaps that we are regularly told will protect us because [all] "masks" work. 

I wear kn95s to be protected.  

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Moderna is 76%. Pfizer is 42%. J&J is about 55%. Typical flu vaccines rage from 10% to 60%.

The claim that vaccines work poorly against the Delta variant is False. Media sources that make that claim are lying.

Just got off the phone with our son Artisticosso. He’s on the upside of a weeklong Delta infection. King County, Washington, (most progressive place in the state, j&j vaccinated, masked in public, may have had original COVID back at the start. 6/10 on the flumeter. Has no idea how he was exposed. No one else in the family has tested positive, but kids can’t go to school. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

The cloth masks in this study still have a filtration amount that I've seen rated for most cloth masks that are more than a bandana or other shoddy single layer masks (not what I've seen sold at any store, BTW, actually sold as a face mask). Though they were manufactured in bangladesh, I don't see them as drastically different than what we have one market. 

Effectiveness dry vs wet? 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

What methods do you feel would reduce Covid rates in lower primary grades?

What methods do you feel would reduce Covid rates in upper primary grades?

Thank you for the respectful question. I don’t think we have enough experience with Delta (and now Lambda and Mu) and its effect on young kids, the starting of a new school year, vaccinated teachers, etc, but if we are serious about this, then we have to get more draconian, and that is a message most don’t want to hear. States should supply schools with enough proven masks for at least a change every 1.5 hours, no more My Pony cloth masks, better training of staff and students on scientific protocols and the means of support to deal with them, more trained staff to assist school nurses and teachers when things go south inside the masks, lots of money.  I don’t know. I’m a violinist, not a doctor, Jim. Or we can just tell kids to put something over their faces and call that good, which is what I see happening now. 

[Robert J Anderson]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Source?

Yes. That is one life-ending, health-damaging, hospital-filling reason to dissuade unproven ivermectin use over safe and effective vaccines.

To which conspiracy media outlet shall we credit with this gem?

Here is something to chew on about how pharma pushes its wares on doctors and us:  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2720029

They also like to contribute to congress: https://khn.org/news/campaign/

This is a program from 2003 about regulatory capture of the FDA:  https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/

Here is an article from 2015:  https://slate.com/technology/2015/02/fda-inspections-fraud-fabrication-and-scientific-misconduct-are-hidden-from-the-public-and-doctors.html

It is still going on today:  https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-regulatory-capture-of-the-fda/

So, ivermectin gets branded as a horse medicine when it is used and approved for use in humans:  https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

I guess you can wave your hand at it by calling it conspiracy theory to think that money/regulatory capture might corrupt.

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for the respectful question.

I like to try new things.

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

States should supply schools with enough proven masks for at least a change every 1.5 hours

I think this is wise I've thought along the same lines.

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

better training of staff and students on scientific protocols and the means of support to deal with them, more trained staff to assist school nurses and teachers when things go south inside the masks

We could repurpose janitors. Same mess, just a little higher off the floor.

That said, I'd guess folks w/o a medical background could handle most of it.

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

money

Non-southern states then. Ones where they don't brag about lifting money from school budgets.

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Here is something to chew on about how pharma pushes its wares on doctors and us:  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2720029

They also like to contribute to congress: https://khn.org/news/campaign/

This is a program from 2003 about regulatory capture of the FDA:  https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/

Here is an article from 2015:  https://slate.com/technology/2015/02/fda-inspections-fraud-fabrication-and-scientific-misconduct-are-hidden-from-the-public-and-doctors.html

It is still going on today:  https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-regulatory-capture-of-the-fda/

So, ivermectin gets branded as a horse medicine when it is used and approved for use in humans:  https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

I guess you can wave your hand at it by calling it conspiracy theory to think that money/regulatory capture might corrupt.

Are all those links for one point? Several different points?  What is/are it/they?

[BlueDreams]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Effectiveness dry vs wet? 

I would assume obviously dry. I can't think of a time I wore a "wet" mask. Including times I've worn them for several hours. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, Chum said:

I like to try new things.

I think this is wise I've thought along the same lines.

We could repurpose janitors. Same mess, just a little higher off the floor.

That said, I'd guess folks w/o a medical background could handle most of it.

Non-southern states then. Ones where they don't brag about lifting money from school budgets.

Glad to broaden your horizons.

Great minds…..

Janitors have too much to do already. My hat is off to them.

With some training, why not?

C’mon man! I live in Kentucky. 

[Robert J Anderson]

15 minutes ago, Chum said:

Are all those links for one point? Several different points?  What is/are it/they?

My point is that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of influence over doctors, media, and congress and so it isn't surprising that there is a concerted attack on a cheap competitor to the vaccines.

[Chum]

45 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

My point is that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of influence over doctors, media, and congress and so it isn't surprising that there is a concerted attack on a cheap competitor to the vaccines.

I especially like the part where countless individual journalists are raising concerns about folks taking unapproved meds & swamping poison control centers - not because these things are universally distressing but because numerous Rx companies are acting with one brain and exerting direct control the content of their reporting.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Chum

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not out of context at all. When, in the midst of a global pandemic, you choose to repeatedly sow seeds of doubt in an almost universally accepted public health measure (endorsed multiple times by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve) using language identical to what apostates and critics have long used to sow seeds of doubt in prophets, then I think you may be the one missing the historical and ideological context of your statements -- quite possibly without realising it.

So, you were not being truthful when I asked you if you were rebuking me and if you were saying I call the prophets’ messages inconsistent, and you said, “Neither.” In fact, you were doing both and worse. I would never have expected this from you. And you grossly misrepresent my position saying I sew seeds of doubt when I question the gross inconsistencies in implementation of mandates. I have given specific examples of these. None of them involved prophets or the Church. My wife and I have strictly followed all the Church’s instructions regarding COVID. I have never advocated against them here or elsewhere. 

You did indeed take my comment out of context…another untruthful denial. In response to Danzo…

Quote

 

I'm suggesting there are limits to what the government can force people to do. 

Even with the some of most restrictive measures in the country didn't spare the state. 

On the other hand our children's mental health suffered, education became a joke (our schools have been prohibited from requiring students to know how to read, write and do math to graduate), Portland is on track to its highest number of number of murders ever. After all of this damage for a result that doesn't appear much different than states that did much less damage to their children's mental health.

I am not anti vaccination, our family gets the flu vaccination, we got the covid vaccination shortly after we were allowed to (of course the teachers got to get it before the elderly in my state even though there was no school, the governor was just following orders from the people who were paying her).

I walked to work this morning without meeting anyone and worked by myself.  Somehow according to people here I am the problem and some sort of criminal because I wasn't wearing a mask.  Yet people were congregating in large groups in other places and they think it's ok because they have a piece of cloth hanging over their face.

I think the mask mandates make it worse because people think they can congregate with their mask and it somehow absolves them.

I replied, “I think the inconsistency of the messages turns many people off.” There was no mention of prophets. This is textbook quoting out of context. I’m disappointed you try to justify it. 

I was noting that mixed messages from government, schools, and social pressure add to the confusion that we experience every day and give fodder to folks who don’t want masks or vaccines. From that you jumped to unfairly accusing me of being like those evil people who purged prophets and divided the Lehites, and the apostates who call the prophets’ messages inconsistent. This is now the fourth time you have done this without cause. Why?

After your comments, a later poster pulled the appeal to authority fallacy which included prophets, which fallacy I sarcastically rejected in the context of a discussion about a scientific study he dismissed. 

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I meant that more of an expression of generally differing “sides” openly disagreeing with something said by church leadership. 
 

but it reminds me of another thing I’ve been learning this year: the limits of empathy/understanding. That’s one of my go-to tools when it comes to interacting with people in general.  But the pandemic is another beast. 
you mentioned this earlier to pogi: 

I’ve done this with at least one of these cousins I mentioned above. When I got vaxxed, I was one of the first in my family/friends to do so. So I made a public post about it and left it open to anyone who wanted to talk to me about it to do so with no shame or judgment involved. I was desperate just to reach those around me as best I could to gently encourage vaccination. I practiced what I preached and kindly answered every concern after listening and empathizing with them. During this Said cuz wanted to dm me and talk privately. So we did, she shared her concerns, I told her mine and my experience with the vaccine as well as what I knew. She was appreciative and there was no offense or a negative experience she took from the convo. The next day she posted another critical anti-vax oriented meme. 

I’ve had a few vax hesitant or waiting people in my life that I had more direct contact with besides her. One was my step-mom the other was my other cousin. Both got vaxxed. What did work for them? For my step-mom, boundaries on seeing the grandbaby. As in we’ll be coming by and you can have face-to-face time with grandchild once you’re vaxxed. Same was given to all the family as a qualification to all my close relatives. (To be fair, her hesitation was more to do with a fear of needles than anything else and for other parts of my family it was just making time for it). For the other cuz, it was more info that filled in some of her questions. 

I’ve worked to understand my people and moreso the the issues around this general. I agree that info wars especially aren’t super effective. People will find info to back their opinion no matter what. But I’ve found empathy also has its limits in this too. It allows people to believe that my opinion is as equally valid as their’s and it’s all just a matter of perspective and differing priorities.  Which isn’t true. But the other problem I’ve seen is that for many most adament or set not vaxxing is they also don’t have an off ramp to manage being wrong. Be wrong or pointing out huge gaping problems in their assertions, even when it is done without shaming language, Is often still taken as shaming or judging them or some such response that allows them to remain the victim or underdog of simply having “different conclusions” or “concerns”. Meanwhile, ironically, I’ve yet to see a post against vaccination that doesn’t throw judging language or demeaning terms to describe the vaccine and/or those insisting it’s needed. 

My main question at this point is how do we get people to earnestly acknowledge and accept they may be wrong? How do we really “reach” those who seem to be made of Teflon when it comes to more accurate information, accounts of covid death and suffering, kind corrections from friends or family, and religious counsel?  Cuz i got nothing for those most earnestly choosing this hill to (sometime literally) die on. But it does make me think that we may have a spiritual deficit in learning how to confront that we will be wrong and gracefully take accountability and repent. 
 

with luv, 

BD 
 

 

It would seem that at least you and your cousin remain on good, mutually respectful terms, and remain faithful to your religion or respective religions. In the case of your step-mom, personal, relational priorities (love) seem to have prevailed, and with your other cousin, good information from a trusted personal source (something difficult to replicate on a discussion board 😊 ).

The aspect of empathy I’m referring to has more to do with appreciating another mindset than with sharing the product of that mindset, such as a sense of validity or conviction for an opposing conclusion ("I understand and appreciate your value system, and I value you as a person -- here is how I see it playing out [repeat back their actions], it could also play out this way: [explain another action, how their values can be consistent with a new action, how a new value might be considered and incorporated, etc.]"). This might be the oil that smooths out your effectiveness in the above instances, and might have contributed to cultivating trust.

At the same time, a weak point does seem to be trust – hard to find after a mass media-dependent society becomes highly politicized and even ideologically polarized. Which is why in my mind close personal relationships are so important. So here we might find the gospel principle of “gathering” useful on a micro level, which then expands enough to challenge the isolation felt by the media-dependent that can be so numerous within our circles.

It is definitely a trick to constructively stimulate a person’s sense of being wrong about something, the stimulus for changing attitude and behavior. They have to be invited into it. Modeling that attitude in other areas might be helpful, for example, maybe an acknowledgement that just maybe the prophet was guiding us to a better place with his counsel about earrings and tattoos (sorry to use that example again!). Even trickier to apply the method to a national audience. So, that is my question, too!

The best resource I’ve found is the book I keep mentioning whenever I join a thread involving politics and ideology. The author himself demonstrates through his own turnaround on a couple of specific issues, how to earnestly acknowledge and accept a formerly counter-natural solution to problems without compromising his core values. I’ll have to look up that chapter and share a summary.

Edited September 6, 2021 by CV75

[Chum]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

If I were in charge I’d provide the world with N95s and require them In all public spaces no exceptions. 

But that'd reduce the death rate in FL. What kind of monster are you?