Accurate statement about covenants by Elder Stanfill?

[Duncan]

He said this at the Helena Montana Temple ground breaking

“Covenants of the temple are not transactional they are transformational when lived with honest and complete integrity. They bring us closer to the Savior and our Heavenly Father. Those who engage in this work will change. They will become better, kinder and more holy with the power to have greater spiritual guidance in their lives”

 

My question is about this transactional and transformational. Would it be more accurate to say that because they are transactional they are transformational or what do you think?

as luck would have it the full talk is available

 

 

[The Nehor]

I think it can be taken exactly as said. It ceases to be transactional and becomes transformational when “lived with honest and complete integrity”. I take that to mean very rarely is that the case.

[katherine the great]

People like to be wordsmiths. Maybe covenants are not merely transactional but have the potential to become transformational. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Something is exchanged in a covenant so I don’t think the transaction can be negated. 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

He said this at the Helena Montana Temple ground breaking

“Covenants of the temple are not transactional they are transformational when lived with honest and complete integrity. They bring us closer to the Savior and our Heavenly Father. Those who engage in this work will change. They will become better, kinder and more holy with the power to have greater spiritual guidance in their lives”

 

My question is about this transactional and transformational. Would it be more accurate to say that because they are transactional they are transformational or what do you think?

as luck would have it the full talk is available

 

 

What does he mean by transactional?  The common definition of that word relates to business, buying and selling.

If he means that it’s not something to check off our list like “I need to get some eggs from the grocer or I can’t eat today” then I agree. The point of the endowment is not the transaction that takes place. It’s what that transaction can accomplish.

If there is no transformation from the endowment and other temple covenants, then the transaction alone will not produce any blessings when it's all over.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by bluebell

[Kenngo1969]

For whatever my thoughts and opinions are worth, I think a "transactional" God or a "transactional" covenant is "y for x": "You give me x, I give you y."  (The "Candy Machine God": You give me $1.00, I'll give you some candy [aka blessings].)  But covenants aren't simply about getting something; they're about becoming something.  Hence, they are supposed to be transformational rather than merely transactional.

P.S.: And here I thought Montana was going to Helena handbasket.    I'm glad to know I was wrong.   

Edited August 1, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

If there is no transformation from the endowment and other temple covenants, then the transaction alone will not produce any blessings when it's all over.

Wow, BB, that is one heckuva fine and pithy statement of truth! Even seen completely apart from the talk referenced in the OP. Nice!

Edited August 2, 2021 by Stargazer

[theplains]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

If there is no transformation from the endowment and other temple covenants, then the transaction alone will not produce any blessings when it's all over.

Will punishment be the result of a non-transformational transaction then?

Edited August 2, 2021 by theplains

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, theplains said:

Will punishment be the result of a non-transformational transaction then?

It probably depends on how you look at it.  Not be able to receive a blessing could be seen as a punishment or just a simple consequence of choices made.  

Our doctrine is that covenants/ordinances must be sealed by the Holy Spirit in order to be effective.  If someone makes a covenant but does not keep it, then it is useless to them and will likely even bring more negative consequences than if they had never made it in the first place.

[theplains]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:27 AM, bluebell said:

It probably depends on how you look at it.  Not be able to receive a blessing could be seen as a punishment or just a simple consequence of choices made.  

Our doctrine is that covenants/ordinances must be sealed by the Holy Spirit in order to be effective.  If someone makes a covenant but does not keep it, then it is useless to them and will likely even bring more negative consequences than if they had never made it in the first place.

What are some of the most severe punishments that God has inflicted upon people in the Book
of Mormon who did not keep covenant?

[smac97]

On 8/1/2021 at 7:35 AM, Duncan said:

He said this at the Helena Montana Temple ground breaking

“Covenants of the temple are not transactional they are transformational when lived with honest and complete integrity. They bring us closer to the Savior and our Heavenly Father. Those who engage in this work will change. They will become better, kinder and more holy with the power to have greater spiritual guidance in their lives”

My question is about this transactional and transformational. Would it be more accurate to say that because they are transactional they are transformational or what do you think?

as luck would have it the full talk is available

I've long appreciated Stephen Robinson's Parable of the Bicycle:

Quote

As my wife and I talked that night about feelings of inadequacy, I groped for some way to help. I finally remembered something that had happened a couple of months earlier. In our home it is now called the parable of the bicycle.

I was sitting in a chair reading. My daughter, Sarah, who was seven years old at the time, came in and said, “Dad, can I have a bike? I’m the only kid on the block who doesn’t have one.”

Well, I didn’t have the money then for a bike, so I stalled her. I said, “Sure, Sarah.”

She said, “How? When?”

I said, “You save all your pennies, and soon you’ll have enough for a bike.” And she went away.

A couple ofs weeks later I was sitting in the same chair when I heard a “clink, clink” in Sarah’s bedroom. I asked, “Sarah, what are you doing?”

She came to me with a little jar, a slit cut in the lid, and a bunch of pennies in the bottom. She said, “You promised me that if I saved all my pennies, pretty soon I’d have enough for a bike. And, Daddy, I’ve saved every single one of them.”

My heart melted. My daughter was doing everything in her power to follow my instructions. I hadn’t actually lied to her. If she saved all of her pennies, she would eventually have enough for a bike, but by then she would want a car. I said, “Let’s go look at bikes.”

We went to every store in town. Finally we found it—the perfect bicycle. She was thrilled. Then she saw the price tag, and her face fell. She started to cry. “Oh, Dad, I’ll never have enough for a bicycle!”

So I said, “Sarah, how much do you have?”

She answered, “Sixty-one cents.”

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home.

As I drove beside her, I thought of the atonement of Christ. We all desperately want the celestial kingdom. We want to be with our Father in Heaven. But no matter how hard we try, we come up short. At some point all of us must realize, “I can’t do this by myself. I need help.” Then it is that the Savior says, in effect, All right, you’re not perfect. But what can you do? Give me all you have, and I’ll do the rest.

He still requires our best effort. We must keep trying. But the good news is that having done all we can, it is enough. We may not be personally perfect yet, but because of our covenant with the Savior, we can rely on his perfection, and his perfection will get us through.

In 2018 I had a discussion about this here:

Quote

Quote

 

Quote

We work on having faith.  We repent.  We receive baptism.  We obey, and repent when we mess up.  We share the Gospel.  We serve our fellow man.  We do temple work.  We focus on our families.  

If you don't do these things, will you receive eternal life or not?

 

Resurrection?  Yes.

Exaltation?  No.

{Matthew} 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

"He that doeth the will of my father" = "We work on having faith.  We repent.  We receive baptism.  We obey, and repent when we mess up.  We share the Gospel.  We serve our fellow man.  We do temple work.  We focus on our families."

...

2 Nephi 31:19 says it nicely:

Quote

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

"Relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save."  Yes.

And 2 Nephi 25:23:

Quote

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

I believe we are, if we choose, saved by Grace.

Quote

If you don't have eternal life now, you're never going to gain it after mortality.

I'm not interested in lexical squabbles.

The Restored Gospel makes me a better person.  The Bible tells me that to love God is to obey Him, so I do.  The Bible tells me that "he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" will "enter the kingdom of heaven," so I seek to do His will.  The Bible tells me that "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish," so I repent.

The Book of Mormon tells me that I am or will be saved by Grace, so I have faith in that.  The Book of Mormon tells me to rely "wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save," so I try to do that.

I am happy and content as a Latter-day Saint.  I work hard to take care of my wife and children.  I try to obey God in ways large and small.  I repent when I screw up.  I "look forward unto Christ with steadfastness for the signs which are given" (2 Nephi 26:8).  

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."  (D&C 14:7)

"Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20)

"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life."  (Alma 11:40)

"Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me."  (3 Nephi 9:14)

These are all quite comforting to me.

And here:

Quote

Quote

 

Quote

I think Stephen Robinson's Parable of the Bicycle sums up my perspective on this.

You miss the fundamental difference between what Jesus Christ offers you and what LDS theology offers you.

 

I don't think I do.

Quote

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home."

The little girl could still boast that she obtained the bicycle because she did something. 

Yes.  Metaphorically speaking, she did the will of the Father.  She obeyed Him.  And in obeying Him, she loved Him.

{Matthew} 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ."

Quote

After all, you'd have to admit that her earning 61 cents took some work, which makes the bicycle a reward, not a gift.

I'm not particularly interested in such lexical squabbles.  By your reckoning, {Matthew} 7:21 turns salvation into a "reward, not a gift" since it is contingent on the individual "do[ing] the will of my Father which is in heaven."

I'm just not hung up on such things.  The Scriptures tell me that obedience is a necessary thing for salvation, and that salvation comes by Grace.

If you want to argue whether the 61 cents actually went toward the purchase of the bicycle, or whether the father just put his daughter's coins in his pocket and paid for the bicycle entirely by himself, then have at it.  I'm not particularly invested in such a debate.  All I know is that I really, really want to give God my 61 cents.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

On 8/1/2021 at 9:35 AM, Duncan said:

He said this at the Helena Montana Temple ground breaking

“Covenants of the temple are not transactional they are transformational when lived with honest and complete integrity. They bring us closer to the Savior and our Heavenly Father. Those who engage in this work will change. They will become better, kinder and more holy with the power to have greater spiritual guidance in their lives”

 

My question is about this transactional and transformational. Would it be more accurate to say that because they are transactional they are transformational or what do you think?

as luck would have it the full talk is available

 

 

They are also translational... 😁 "Ooops, there goes another one!"

[bOObOO]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:35 AM, Duncan said:

He said this at the Helena Montana Temple ground breaking

“Covenants of the temple are not transactional they are transformational when lived with honest and complete integrity. They bring us closer to the Savior and our Heavenly Father. Those who engage in this work will change. They will become better, kinder and more holy with the power to have greater spiritual guidance in their lives”

 

My question is about this transactional and transformational. Would it be more accurate to say that because they are transactional they are transformational or what do you think?

as luck would have it the full talk is available

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by bOObOO

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

What are some of the most severe punishments that God has inflicted upon people in the Book
of Mormon who did not keep covenant?

I don't know.  I've never done a study of that subject.

Most of the time the worst that He does is to withdraw His aid.  Then the people destroy themselves.

[Thinking]

Could the temple covenants be transformational if they were not transactional?