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Judgment by Christ


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I would like to ask you all for a referral to the best in-depth study of judgment written by an LDS scholar. I have read everything I could find online and don't find that it answers my many questions. It is general and in most ways could have been written by a Mennonite or Methodist eschatologist with only a few amendments (three kingdoms of eternity, etc). Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat? Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else? Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him? Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment? If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS? Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat? Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?" There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view? Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again,if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

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20 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would like to ask you all for a referral to the best in-depth study of judgment written by an LDS scholar. I have read everything I could find online and don't find that it answers my many questions. It is general and in most ways could have been written by a Mennonite or Methodist eschatologist with only a few amendments (three kingdoms of eternity, etc). Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat? Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else? Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him? Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment? If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS? Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat? Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?" There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view? Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again,if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

We will all be judged according to the light and truth we receive here and how well we live up to it.  Even within a faith group some are given more light than others.

However LDS scripture teaches that every blessing has a law attached.  So judgement will also require obedience to the applicable law to receive the blessing.  Again, regardless of faith group.

Institutional affiliation matters because of authority to administer the laws upon which blessings are predicated.

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We will all be judged according to the light and truth we receive here and how well we live up to it.  Even within a faith group some are given more light than others.

However LDS scripture teaches that every blessing has a law attached.  So judgement will also require obedience to the applicable law to receive the blessing.  Again, regardless of faith group.

Institutional affiliation matters because of authority to administer the laws upon which blessings are predicated.

Authority is granted by the institution (to use your word) is it not? I have no authority to administer an ordinance in an LDS environment. No LDS leader has any authority to administer any ordinance except within the LDS environment. Is that not also correct? Authority is not a competition or a contest. Authority is both granted by and limited to the authority-granting institution and its leaders. My question then is the spirit world (Hades and Paradise) considered an LDS environment? If there are LDS missionaries there, will there be Baptist missionaries, Pentecostal missionaries as well? Will it be a repeat of what we experience here on earth? When I stand before Christ will my earthly denominational, group, or institutional affiliation be known to Christ and taken into consideration in the decisions about my eternal destiny? The only way I know to understand something is to ask questions about it. I hope that is ok?

 

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9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Authority is granted by the institution (to use your word) is it not? I have no authority to administer an ordinance in an LDS environment. No LDS leader has any authority to administer any ordinance except within the LDS environment. Is that not also correct? Authority is not a competition or a contest. Authority is both granted by and limited to the authority-granting institution and its leaders. My question then is the spirit world (Hades and Paradise) considered an LDS environment? If there are LDS missionaries there, will there be Baptist missionaries, Pentecostal missionaries as well? Will it be a repeat of what we experience here on earth? When I stand before Christ will my earthly denominational, group, or institutional affiliation be known to Christ and taken into consideration in the decisions about my eternal destiny? The only way I know to understand something is to ask questions about it. I hope that is ok?

 

No.  Authority is only granted by God, not the Churches.  The question is which ordinances God will recognize on the record of heaven.  Yes your denomination will be known and considered in the judgement.  You will be accountable for whatever truth God gave you.

But membership in a denomination isn't an excuse for not following a law of heaven.  If Baptism is required that requirement doesn't go away because you might be in a denomination that doesn't practice baptism.

Edited by JLHPROF
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24 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would like to ask you all for a referral to the best in-depth study of judgment written by an LDS scholar. I have read everything I could find online and don't find that it answers my many questions. It is general and in most ways could have been written by a Mennonite or Methodist eschatologist with only a few amendments (three kingdoms of eternity, etc). Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat? Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else? Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him? Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment? If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS? Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat? Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?" There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view? Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again,if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

I can't think of one exhaustive treatment of this topic by an LDS scholar, but there are several sources you can find that depict the Latter-day Saint understanding of the final judgement. 

In this talk by Dallin H. Oaks, The Challenge to Become, he explains that our judgement is determined by the "state" of our character at the time we come to judgement:

Quote

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: “And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God” (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still” (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11–12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of “selfish” or “disobedient” or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God. Referring to the “state” of the wicked in the Final Judgment, Alma explains that if we are condemned by our words, our works, and our thoughts, “we shall not be found spotless; … and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God” (Alma 12:14).

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

Also, these thoughts by President Brigham Young explain that the judgement is based on the light and knowledge we have available to us, rather than some standard that is impossible for us to grasp: 

Quote

We will be judged for living “according to the best light [we] have.”

It has appeared to me, from my childhood to this day, as a piece of complete nonsense, to talk about the inhabitants of the earth being thus irretrievably lost—to talk of my father and mother, and yours, or our ancestors, who have lived faithfully according to the best light they had; but because they had not the everlasting covenant and the holy Priesthood in their midst, that they should go to hell and roast there to all eternity. It is nonsense to me; it always was, and is yet (DBY, 384).

A man or woman must know the ways of God before they can become ungodly. Persons may be sinners, may be unrighteous, may be wicked, who have never heard the plan of salvation, who are even unacquainted with the history of the Son of Man, or who have heard of the name of the Savior, and, perhaps, the history of his life while on the earth, but have been taught unbelief through their tradition and education; but to be ungodly, in the strict sense of the word, they must measurably understand godliness (DBY, 384).

So far as mortality is concerned, millions of the inhabitants of the earth live according to the best light they have—according to the best knowledge they possess. I have told you frequently that they will receive according to their works; and all, who live according to the best principles in their possession, or that they can understand, will receive peace, glory, comfort, joy and a crown that will be far beyond what they are anticipating. They will not be lost (DBY, 384).

If [people] have a law, no matter who made it, and do the best they know how, they will have a glory which is beyond your imagination, by any description I might give; you cannot conceive of the least portion of the glory of God prepared for his beings, the workmanship of his hands (DBY, 385).

I say to every priest on the face of the earth, I do not care whether they be Christian, Pagan or [Muslim], you should live according to the best light you have; and if you do you will receive all the glory you ever anticipated (DBY, 384–85).

You asked, "Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment?"  I would answer "yes", at least according to the way I understand these teachings.

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I would like to ask you all for a referral to the best in-depth study of judgment written by an LDS scholar. I have read everything I could find online and don't find that it answers my many questions. It is general and in most ways could have been written by a Mennonite or Methodist eschatologist with only a few amendments (three kingdoms of eternity, etc). Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat? Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else? Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him? Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment? If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS? Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat? Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?" There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view? Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again,if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

Rather than rely on scholars we rely on prophets to share God's messages with us, so for a reference to the best book I can think of written by a prophet regarding judgment I would recommend Doctrines of Salvation, this one:

There are a few others but this one is one of my favorites due to the content and the question/answer format. 

51X+GfZNBIL._SX340_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat?

More or less, but I don't expect to see or hear from you again after I'm dead.  Or most people who post or have posted on this board either.  Or anyone from any of the wards I have been in, or am in now, other than family.  I'd like to find Joseph Smith, maybe, and other prominent prophets of our Church, the true church of Jesus Christ, but I don't know if I will find them or if they will find me.  There are going to be billions and billions of people out there, don't you know, and we may not all be in the same area. 

Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else?

No more than it is here, I think, but yes someone is either a member of the true church of Jesus Christ or not, and if not there will still probably be a lot of other groups of people.  

Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him?

I believe Christ knows everything about everything and that he can share what he knows with whoever he wants to share his knowledge with, at least if others are also interested in learning from him.

Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Present at our judgment?  He may be, but I don't think so, generally.  I'm thinking it will probably be a one-on-one session with someone who is God, and we may not even know his name. We may just walk into a room and be judged by whoever is there.   

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment?

By his beliefs and other actions and the type of person he is then, I think, as I think all of us will be.  Some who are "Catholic" may not even identify as what a Catholic is, not knowing or being familiar with that particular word or its application.

If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS?

Maybe, but there would still be other possibilities.

Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat?

What do you mean by "affiliation"?  I think we can have been affiliated with institutions without being members or still being members of those institutions. I think what matters most is basically what we think and how we feel about things.

Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?"

If our faith is making us whole, I suppose.

There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view?

I think there must be too.

Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again, if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

Lots of things to be spelled out.  The whole gamut of what anyone could possibly think.  Some believe this while some believe some other thing with probably no end to everything anyone could choose to believe, whether right or wrong.

I hope the volume of books I recommended is something that may be of some interest to you.

Edited by bOObOO
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58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Authority is granted by the institution (to use your word) is it not?

In our institution, our Lord's church, our Lord gives one man something called keys of the kingdom of God and that man is authorized by our Lord to do all of the work our Lord wants done both personally as well as by delegating some responsibilities to others.  So the authority is granted at a personal l;evel, person to person, as determined by those with the authority and the authority they each have, rather than an institutional level.

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I have no authority to administer an ordinance in an LDS environment. No LDS leader has any authority to administer any ordinance except within the LDS environment.  Is that not also correct?

Our environment is the whole world, as authorized by our Lord to go into all of the world.  Sometimes those in authority don't go to some places because those who are there tell them or indicate that they are not welcome to go there, so out of courtesy they will choose to stay away, but still they have our Lord's authority to go wherever they can go to share the gospel and administer the ordinances throughout all of the world. 

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Authority is not a competition or a contest. Authority is both granted by and limited to the authority-granting institution and its leaders. My question then is the spirit world (Hades and Paradise) considered an LDS environment?

This whole world belongs to God, the mortal world as well as the spirit world, and he has allowed us to come here to fulfill his purposes.  We are all on a mission from God. Including the Blues Brothers.  It is a test to see how well we will do. 

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

If there are LDS missionaries there, will there be Baptist missionaries, Pentecostal missionaries as well? Will it be a repeat of what we experience here on earth?

Pretty much, yes, I think.  God doesn't make everyone but us mute when we die.  We will still be able to speak and say whatever we want to say. You'll still be able to choose to believe whatever seems right to you\ even if you are wrong about something.

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

\When I stand before Christ will my earthly denominational, group, or institutional affiliation be known to Christ and taken into consideration in the decisions about my eternal destiny?

Will you be taking those things into your considerations?  Would you like God to consider those things while listening to you?

58 minutes ago, Navidad said:

The only way I know to understand something is to ask questions about it. I hope that is ok?

Sure, ask whatever you want.  I'll just keep hoping you'll keep getting better at realizing the truth whenever you hear it, just as I hope that for me and for everybody.

Edited by bOObOO
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3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I would like to ask you all for a referral to the best in-depth study of judgment written by an LDS scholar. I have read everything I could find online and don't find that it answers my many questions. It is general and in most ways could have been written by a Mennonite or Methodist eschatologist with only a few amendments (three kingdoms of eternity, etc). Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat? Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else? Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him? Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment? If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS? Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat? Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?" There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view? Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again,if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

The answers to your questions are beautifully answered in Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76 and 138. If your questions still haven’t been answered after carefully studying these two sections of scripture, it means you’re either not understanding or missing things that are plainly obvious. So obvious, in fact, that it will do no good if I try to explain it to you.

Edited by teddyaware
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12 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I can't think of one exhaustive treatment of this topic by an LDS scholar, but there are several sources you can find that depict the Latter-day Saint understanding of the final judgement. 

In this talk by Dallin H. Oaks, The Challenge to Become, he explains that our judgement is determined by the "state" of our character at the time we come to judgement:

Also, these thoughts by President Brigham Young explain that the judgement is based on the light and knowledge we have available to us, rather than some standard that is impossible for us to grasp: 

You asked, "Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment?"  I would answer "yes", at least according to the way I understand these teachings.

Thanks for your very helpful post. I carefully read Dallin Oaks' message. I found it to be quite consistent with the teachings of most other Christian groups who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. I found some confusion over these two statements:  

The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan by which we can become what children of God are supposed to become. This spotless and perfected state will result from a steady succession of covenants, ordinances, and actions, an accumulation of right choices, and from continuing repentance.

I find these statements a bit contradictory. But then, that is why I ask questions!

I say to every priest on the face of the earth, I do not care whether they be Christian, Pagan or [Muslim], you should live according to the best light you have; and if you do you will receive all the glory you ever anticipated (DBY, 384–85).  

I find this quote to be fascinating. I think that probably a lot of Christians, Pagans, and Muslims have high anticipation of glory with Christ and the Father forever. I know I do. I certainly strive to "live according to the best light I have." I have spent years studying, reflecting, pondering on truths and the Truth. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the essence of that light. With the assistance of both my study and the Holy Spirit I have endeavored whole-heartedly to understand the light I have been given through the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible and historical Evangelical Christianity. I have spent the last four years faithfully attending, studying, reading, fellowshipping, and worshiping in an LDS ward. I appreciate all I have learned there. I have found the synthesis of LDS doctrine and history fascinating.

I think there is more breadth in the LDS concept of the gospel, but perhaps less depth than what I have been taught elsewhere. That is an observation, in no way a criticism. Perhaps why I keep asking questions is because there seems to be grand statements of certitude, beauty, and assurance within the gospel of the community of the LDS-Christian, yet at the same time a lack of concreteness in explaining the details of how it will all happen.

Of course in fairness, perhaps I don't ask my questions well. For example in this thread I was hoping to elicit a chronological step-by-step understanding of what happens when I die as a Christ-centered non-LDS Christian from death to final judgment and beyond. I get referred to sermons, talks, and scriptures that speak very generally, broadly, and without specificity. What I seek are details and specifics so that I can apply them to my situation and make decisions on what I think about about them. That seems to irritate some folks. My hope is that a few will see my questions as sincere and strive with me to answer them. Maybe I am wrong. There certainly is no one locally here who can answer them for me. That is why I keep coming back to this forum.
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10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So obvious, in fact, that it will do no good if I try to explain it to you.

My experience seems to point to a very hard fact to accept.  Explaining Gospel things to each other has but little effect.  We need to do it anyway, but understand we are a very small spark indeed and without Heavenly help the spark flickers and is gone.  Even with Heavenly help sometimes the message is rejected outright.  

Edited by Metis_LDS
clarity
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17 hours ago, Navidad said:

If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS?

To specify that a dead person becomes a member of the Church in the Heavens is an earthly thing that does not apply.  The only Church mentioned in the scriptures in Heaven is the Church of the first born (D&C) and is only in the Celestial kingdom.  So there is no question of Churches on the other side because it is all FAMILY with four places to dwell in or have membership. One of the three Kingdoms of Glory or Peridtion.  

Edited by Metis_LDS
correction and addition
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2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Even with Heavenly help sometimes the message is rejected outright. 

Hi: I am not sure what you mean "the message is rejected." I, for example am not looking to accept or reject anything that is said here in response to a question of mine. I am looking to receive it and do my very best to understand it. I try and frame my questions from Christian to Christian, seeking to understand a bit of a different perspective about our common faith. 

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2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Explaining Gospel things to each other has but little effect.

I respectfully suggest that it has great effect. I learn something I didn't know or understand before. Adding to my knowledge base and understanding, even at 72 years of age is of great effect. I am a better person for it.

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12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So obvious, in fact, that it will do no good if I try to explain it to you.

Again, I am not sure what you mean by "it will do no good."  Isn't adding to one's understanding and knowledge base a good  thing?

 

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35 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi: I am not sure what you mean "the message is rejected." I, for example am not looking to accept or reject anything that is said here in response to a question of mine. I am looking to receive it and do my very best to understand it. I try and frame my questions from Christian to Christian, seeking to understand a bit of a different perspective about our common faith. 

I was referring to people I have taught in person.  

Edited by Metis_LDS
grammar
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19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

We will all be judged according to the light and truth we receive here and how well we live up to it.  Even within a faith group some are given more light than others.

 

The thought sometimes comes into my mind that perhaps we should not do missionary work to many people.  Perhaps they are better in the long run not to have more light given to them and they come out ahead on the other side.

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11 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The thought sometimes comes into my mind that perhaps we should not do missionary work to many people.  Perhaps they are better in the long run not to have more light given to them and they come out ahead on the other side.

There's some truth there, but IMO not where the first principles are concerned.  It is better all are taught of Christ.  It is not better all take upon themselves binding eternal covenants that are oft broken.

As far as coming out ahead on the other side:

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

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20 hours ago, bOObOO said:

I hope the volume of books I recommended is something that may be of some interest to you.

Thanks. I have this volume and have read it several times. Both Joseph F Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith were interesting presidents! Joseph F. Smith enjoyed coming to the colonies. I once gave a talk on the Apostles and the Colonies at a MHA meeting. I had a good time with the folks!

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4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi: I am not sure what you mean "the message is rejected." I, for example am not looking to accept or reject anything that is said here in response to a question of mine. I am looking to receive it and do my very best to understand it. I try and frame my questions from Christian to Christian, seeking to understand a bit of a different perspective about our common faith. 

The best source then is to go to primary sources

Read sections 76 and 84. Please.

All the answers you get here are those of the poster, their interpretations. 

We get to read scripture and listen to no one else but the Spirit in interpretation.

If one can fit our personal interpretations into those scriptures, and have prayed about it, that becomes OUR Doctrine.

Go to the sources, not to all our  interpretations and then you get to make up your own  interpretations.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There's some truth there, but IMO not where the first principles are concerned.  It is better all are taught of Christ.  It is not better all take upon themselves binding eternal covenants that are oft broken.

As far as coming out ahead on the other side:

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

This is off topic, but I just noticed you are from Happy Valley. I am wondering if you ever travel on Penns Valley Rd just east of Aaronsburg? My Stover family cemetery is on the south side of the road, right on the highway. Almost all my Stover ancestors are buried there. I understand the Amish are buying up a lot of  the farm land around there. Someone apparently, in recent years tore down the old church that was right next to the cemetery. What a shame!

There is a sociology professor at Penn State who runs what is probably the only Study Center in the country to study plain and old order Mennonites from a sociological perspective. He has his PhD in sociology and still dresses plain himself. Sorry for the digression, but I would love to go back there again. I have so much family history there. There is even a marker for an old Stover fort that my ancestors built in the mid 1700s.

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16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks. I have this volume and have read it several times. Both Joseph F Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith were interesting presidents! Joseph F. Smith enjoyed coming to the colonies. I once gave a talk on the Apostles and the Colonies at a MHA meeting. I had a good time with the folks!

Their "schools" of interpretation were quite fundamentalist, eschewing evolution etc and Bruce R. McConkie was a close follower of that tradition, and he has fallen out of favor.

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1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

The best source then is to go to primary sources

Read sections 76 and 84. Please.

All the answers you get here are those of the poster, their interpretations. 

We get to read scripture and listen to no one else but the Spirit in interpretation.

If one can fit our personal interpretations into those scriptures, and have prayed about it, that becomes OUR Doctrine.

Go to the sources, not to all our  interpretations and then you get to make up your own  interpretations.

Thanks my friend. That helps. We used to have a couple of men come to visit us as visiting teachers. One has cancer now and the other is often out at his ranch and hour and a half from here. It is sad they can no longer come. Quite often I would read something to them that I had just read by an LDS interpreter/scholar. One of them often said to me "Don't read that stuff! I don't believe that!" then he would laugh. Your comments help me understand the diversity of thought about specific points of doctrine, even within our little ward. Last night we had visitors stop by to sit by the river for a while. They are from the more "liberal," "modern," and "rich"  (not my words) ward in another of the old colonies about 40 minutes away from here. Lots of semi-good natured kidding between the wards. The gentleman sits on their stake presidency there and assured me that many in his ward don't see things as do the folks in our ward. He was laughing as he said it, but I thought it was a pretty interesting observation! Methinks the differences are more cultural than doctrinal.

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3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Their "schools" of interpretation were quite fundamentalist, eschewing evolution etc and Bruce R. McConkie was a close follower of that tradition, and he has fallen out of favor.

Thirty or so years ago the first book I ever read about LDS doctrine was McConkie's Mormon Doctrine book. The second book I read was Apostle/President Kimball's book "The Miracle of Forgiveness." I think both books are a bit out of favor now. I almost quit reading about LDS beliefs after reading "The Miracle of Forgiveness." Very strident language.

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20 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Rather than rely on scholars we rely on prophets to share God's messages with us, so for a reference to the best book I can think of written by a prophet regarding judgment I would recommend Doctrines of Salvation, this one:

There are a few others but this one is one of my favorites due to the content and the question/answer format. 

51X+GfZNBIL._SX340_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

Certainly it seems the church must teach that our earthly religious affiliations must go with us to the judgment seat?

More or less, but I don't expect to see or hear from you again after I'm dead.  Or most people who post or have posted on this board either.  Or anyone from any of the wards I have been in, or am in now, other than family.  I'd like to find Joseph Smith, maybe, and other prominent prophets of our Church, the true church of Jesus Christ, but I don't know if I will find them or if they will find me.  There are going to be billions and billions of people out there, don't you know, and we may not all be in the same area. 

Is it a binary thing - where it is members of the COJCOLDS and every one else?

No more than it is here, I think, but yes someone is either a member of the true church of Jesus Christ or not, and if not there will still probably be a lot of other groups of people.  

Will Christ know our earthly group affiliation and will that impact His decision-making or that of the apostles who I believe the church teaches will be judging with him?

I believe Christ knows everything about everything and that he can share what he knows with whoever he wants to share his knowledge with, at least if others are also interested in learning from him.

Is there still a belief that Joseph Smith will be active/present in that?

Present at our judgment?  He may be, but I don't think so, generally.  I'm thinking it will probably be a one-on-one session with someone who is God, and we may not even know his name. We may just walk into a room and be judged by whoever is there.   

Will a Catholic on earth be judged as a Catholic in the final judgment?

By his beliefs and other actions and the type of person he is then, I think, as I think all of us will be.  Some who are "Catholic" may not even identify as what a Catholic is, not knowing or being familiar with that particular word or its application.

If a Catholic on earth accepts the ordinance work done for her in the spirit world, will she then appear to Christ and the apostles as a member of the COJCOLDS?

Maybe, but there would still be other possibilities.

Does earthly institutional affiliation matter at the judgment seat?

What do you mean by "affiliation"?  I think we can have been affiliated with institutions without being members or still being members of those institutions. I think what matters most is basically what we think and how we feel about things.

Will Christ judge us as he did those in the NT who He said "Thy faith has made thee whole?"

If our faith is making us whole, I suppose.

There must be some basic differences in the perspective on judgment between the LDS-Christian view and the non-LDS Christian view?

I think there must be too.

Anyone familiar enough with both to spell those out. Again, if there is a terrific LDS source on the subject that goes into it in depth, I would greatly appreciate a citation. Thanks so much.

Lots of things to be spelled out.  The whole gamut of what anyone could possibly think.  Some believe this while some believe some other thing with probably no end to everything anyone could choose to believe, whether right or wrong.

I hope the volume of books I recommended is something that may be of some interest to you.

McConkie' views are controversial today.

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10 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Methinks the differences are more cultural than doctrinal.

Many complain that we do not have "Doctrine" in its usual sense, and lean toward each following their own revelations, as long as they are scripturally compatible. 

Joseph eschewed creeds,  and that's why we call non LDS Christians, " creedal Christians", and why we don't accept the Trinity as "consubstantial".

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