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The Paul H Dunn-ing of President Nelson


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Reinstated for Clarity of discussions sake but still  headed back into retirement, It's quite apparent that I have long over stayed my welcome. I don't have the time to research this and argue its validity so I'll leave the stage.  I believe this is a real threat to President Nelson and had hoped someone might want to tackle it.  G'Day 

Recently the internet has been a buzz with scurrilous accusations, if true, that President Nelson has been embellishing personal stories to make them more faith promoting much as Paul H Dunn was found guilty of doing.   These church critics offer as evidence three personal stories President Nelson has often used in talks.

01. A harrowing experience on a 1976 scheduled Sky West flight from SLC to St George to offer a prayer at the swearing in ceremony of a new President of Dixie State College.

02. A conversion story of a close working associate of then Dr. Nelson and this associates family, whom Nelson was able to assist in converting to the gospel by encouraging them to read the Book of Mormon.

03. An assault in Mozambique where then Elder Nelson claims being saved by angels

 

Each of these incidents have come under recent scrutiny and at least according to church critics have not fared very well under the hot lights of examination. 

 

Now new evidence has come forth to undermine the underlying claims made regarding story # 1

According to President Nelson:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/latter-day-saints-channel/watch/series/mormon-messages/mens-hearts-shall-fail-them-1?lang=eng

Unfortunately the evidence does not support this story. According to the Civil Aeronautics Board report, the pilot stated that during the November 11, 1976 scheduled flight from SLC to St George, the twin engine plane experienced a rough engine.  The engine was feathering and the pilot cut off power to that one engine, not two, and a precautionary landing was made at the Delta, Utah airport per company manuals. There was no damage to the airplane.  There was no damage to any engine, no emergency landing in a farmer's field, no exploded engine or fire, no spiraling death dive, in fact the pilot could have continued on safely to their original destination with one engine but out of an abundance of precaution followed the company manual and made a save landing at the Delta Airport.

Item # 2 was initially included in the Sheri Dew biography of President Nelson but after LDS Living Magazine printed a teaser of the book in its pages, the family reached out to the church and said the stated facts of the story about to be printed in the biography were not true.  Deseret Book removed the story from the biography and a major embarrassment was averted.

Regarding story #3, I'm still researching this but I understand that witnesses at the time have stated that even this very scary incident has become more embellished with the passage of time.  This person, who was a missionary serving in Mozambique at the time, does not dispute the break in but suggests that the incident was much more benign than it has since been presented.

So why am I coming out of retirement to share this information.  Someone needs to put their investigative hat on and counter these recent critics claims who are trying to undermine President Nelson's credibility.  For example President Nelson mentions a woman on the plane, perhaps she could be found to collaborate Nelson's claims. And I am sure there are other aspects of these stories that could be collaborated. This requires a skilled investigator willing to dig into the details to protect President Nelson's good name and reputation.  Someone really needs to counter this evidence.

 

 

 

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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16 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Recently the internet has been a buzz with scurrilous accusations, if true, that President Nelson has been embellishing personal stories to make them more faith promoting much as Paul H Dunn was found guilty of doing.   These church critics offer as evidence three personal stories President Nelson has often used in talks.

01. A harrowing experience on a 1976 scheduled Sky West flight from SLC to St George to offer a prayer at the swearing in ceremony of a new President of Dixie State College.

02. A conversion story of a close working associate of then Dr. Nelson and this associates family, whom Nelson was able to assist in converting to the gospel by encouraging them to read the Book of Mormon.

03. An assault in Mozambique where then Elder Nelson claims being saved by angels

 

Each of these incidents have come under recent scrutiny and at least according to church critics have not fared very well under the hot lights of examination. 

 

Now new evidence has come forth to undermine the underlying claims made regarding story # 1

According to President Nelson:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/latter-day-saints-channel/watch/series/mormon-messages/mens-hearts-shall-fail-them-1?lang=eng

Unfortunately the evidence does not support this story. According to the Civil Aeronautics Board report, the pilot stated that during the November 11, 1976 scheduled flight from SLC to St George, the twin engine plane experienced a rough engine.  The engine was feathering and the pilot cut off power to that one engine, not two, and a precautionary landing was made at the Delta, Utah airport per company manuals. There was no damage to the airplane.  There was no damage to any engine, no emergency landing in a farmer's field, no exploded engine or fire, no spiraling death dive, in fact the pilot could have continued on safely to their original destination with one engine but out of an abundance of precaution followed the company manual and made a save landing at the Delta Airport.

Item # 2 was initially included in the Sheri Dew biography of President Nelson but after LDS Living Magazine printed a teaser of the book in its pages, the family reached out to the church and said the stated facts of the story about to be printed in the biography were not true.  Deseret Book removed the story from the biography and a major embarrassment was averted.

Regarding story #3, I'm still researching this but I understand that witnesses at the time have stated that even this very scary incident has become more embellished with the passage of time.  This person, who was a missionary serving in Mozambique at the time, does not dispute the break in but suggests that the incident was much more benign than it has since been presented.

So why am I coming out of retirement to share this information.  Someone needs to put their investigative hat on and counter these recent critics claims who are trying to undermine President Nelson's credibility.  For example President Nelson mentions a woman on the plane, perhaps she could be found to collaborate Nelson's claims. And I am sure there are other aspects of these stories that could be collaborated. This requires a skilled investigator willing to dig into the details to protect President Nelson's good name and reputation.  Someone really needs to counter this evidence.

Why would you not believe the critics' claims?

Edited by Vanguard
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I've never been to the Delta airport so I had to go find it on Google Maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3871304,-112.5166955,3a,75y,119.7h,88.71t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seeCTNYnkUVhsRx1oCQTB-g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DeeCTNYnkUVhsRx1oCQTB-g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D343.56473%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

I don't know about you, but that sure does look like a field to me.  If I had to have an emergency landing of any sort and the plane landed there, I would think that we were in some random field.

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I see we’re resorting to the Harry Reid style of discussion—make something up, claim to have “reliable sources who prefer to remain anonymous”, and lay on the target the burden of doing the research necessary to disprove the accusation.


Excellent.  Excellent.  

Edited by mgy401
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26 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Why would you not believe the critics' claims?

First, even Deseret Book removed the one story, second, The civil aeronautics report is authoritative, which is why I felt finding that woman on the plane would be helpful, third, I'm merely suggesting someone go to bat for President Nelson to dispute the evidence being accumulated. geez

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28 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Sort of a passive aggressive post. I have not heard of the criticism of any of these yet, but I have a solution. Stop worrying about what church critics say. 😉 

Sorry I mistakenly thought someone here might care

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52 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Unfortunately the evidence does not support this story. According to the Civil Aeronautics Board report, the pilot stated that during the November 11, 1976 scheduled flight from SLC to St George, the twin engine plane experienced a rough engine.  The engine was feathering and the pilot cut off power to that one engine, not two, and a precautionary landing was made at the Delta, Utah airport per company manuals. There was no damage to the airplane.  There was no damage to any engine, no emergency landing in a farmer's field, no exploded engine or fire, no spiraling death dive, in fact the pilot could have continued on safely to their original destination with one engine but out of an abundance of precaution followed the company manual and made a safe landing at the Delta Airport.

What is your source for this?

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17 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Sorry I mistakenly thought someone here might care

I care in general but I just don't care about what critics say. What they say is not going to change what I believe to be the most important truths.

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27 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm merely suggesting someone go to bat for President Nelson to dispute the evidence being accumulated. geez

Timmy tells my son that his dad can beat me up. Should I go take time and energy out of my day to go teach Timmy a lesson in respect?

Edited by Fether
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One thing about history is getting to what was actually said by the person. Did Pres. Nelson ever say when this took place? The inauguration of W. Rolfe Kerr happened on Nov. 12, 1976 but according to the video he never said when he flew down. He could have flown down the day before two days before, who knows. So, if someone had access to those records i'd check them. Besides of which we are only going on what someone else said was in and not in the airplane report, could they be posted for all to see? Otherwise they are just as guilty of obscuring the facts as someone else is propping up the story. 

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25 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

First, even Deseret Book removed the one story, second, The civil aeronautics report is authoritative, which is why I felt finding that woman on the plane would be helpful, third, I'm merely suggesting someone go to bat for President Nelson to dispute the evidence being accumulated. geez

IMO you should not discount JAHS initial commentary about your post coming off as passive aggressive. Really. And why would someone need to 'go to bat' for President Nelson? Why can't more than one person have their own take on events without it having to mean the other fabricated the story? That is, unless you're suggesting another's version is evidence President Nelson is no different than Paul Dunn? And even if another's version incontrovertibly proved President Nelson had lied, why would this affect you so? Haven't you already 'dismantled' so many of the faith's tenets and so much of the leadership's positions so as to render this particular issue mute? irrelevant? inconsequential? immaterial? trivial? in your eyes?    

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2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

deleted,  headed back into retirement, I don't have the time to research this and argue its validity so I'll leave the stage.  It I believe this is a real threat to President Nelson and had hoped someone might want to tackle it.  G'Day 

As a rule of thumb, the time one is willing to invest in addressing a threat is proportional to their level of concern for it.

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1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

First, even Deseret Book removed the one story, second, The civil aeronautics report is authoritative, which is why I felt finding that woman on the plane would be helpful, third, I'm merely suggesting someone go to bat for President Nelson to dispute the evidence being accumulated. geez

Not worth my time.  I believe him only when God tells me that what he is saying is true.  And God has yet to make any comment to me about those stories.

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46 minutes ago, gopher said:

 

I believe you're trying to add some humor to the discussion, but perhaps a story involving the brutal murder of an 11 year old is not the best way to do it.

Edited by ksfisher
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17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/05/doors-of-death?lang=eng (1992 first-person account by Pres. Nelson) :

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/1994/06/most-important?lang=eng (1994 first-person account by Pres. Nelson) :

Spencer J. Condie, Russell M. Nelson: Father, Surgeon, Apostle, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2003 (culled from another message board) :

https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-09-18/gospel-principles-vital-to-correct-living-94995 (2004 second-hand account of remarks made by Pres. Nelson) :

https://www.deseret.com/2006/4/15/19948411/death-is-part-of-life-ex-surgeon-says (2006 second-hand account of remarks made by Pres. Nelson) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=EMwKxmTLaCs&ab_channel=TheChurchofJesusChristofLatter-daySaints (2011 first-person audio account by Pres. Nelson) :

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-nelson-shares-5-lessons-life-has-taught-me-with-49000-in-safeco-field?lang=eng (2018 second-hand account of remarks made by Pres. Nelson) :

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-09-03/president-nelson-delivers-historic-message-to-dominican-latter-day-saints-in-spanish-8931 (2018 second-hand account of remarks made by Pres. Nelson) :

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2018-10-26/president-nelson-finds-church-thriving-in-uruguay-thanks-to-multiple-generations-of-members-missionaries-156122 (2019 second-hand account of remarks made by Pres. Nelson in Spanish) :

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-argentina-2019 (2019 second-hand account of remarks made by Pres. Nelson in Spanish) :

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2021/03/a-free-fall-death-spiral.html (quoting from a second-hand source, Sheri Dew, Insights from a Prophet’s Life: Russell M. Nelson (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2019)) :

https://youtu.be/bACX8BXHuEs (2021 first-person account by Pres. Nelson) (transcription from this published account, nearly verbatim with the video) :

From the 1976 Civil Aeronautices Board report:

NELSON-FLIGHT-REPORT.jpg

A partial transcript (mine) :

November 11, 1976 was a Thursday, and November 12 a Friday.

Per the Sheri Dew book (quoted above), Pres. Nelson took a flight on November 12, the same day as the inauguration event he was attending (see here).

The chances of there being two small aircraft problems on two consecutive days, both going from SLC to St. George, both ending up as an emergency landing in Delta, seems . . . remote.  So the above-referenced account of an incident happening on November 11 likely corresponds to the incident described by Pres. Nelson.

Is it possible that Pres. Nelson has embellished the account?  Yes.

Is it possible that Sky West, a small regional airline, having had their inventory of aircraft experience three separate engine failures within a five-week span, might have undersold the severity of the incidents in their official reports to the Civil Aeronautics Board?  Also yes.

Is there perhaps something of a discrepancy in the CAB report, which states, on the one hand, that "{i}nvestigation revealed cylinder base studs sheered" but, on the other, that there was "{n}o damage to aircraft"?  Also yes.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I had flown to Salt Lake and when we landed the crew announced that any passengers that were supposed to stay on the plane to continue to another destination had to unload now.
They didn't say why but when I left the plane and looked out the window I saw that the front windshield had been completely shattered. We were not told anything about that.
plane2.jpg.68df818934a28dc0e664e97b486de3e0.jpg
 

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3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I had flown to Salt Lake and when we landed the crew announced that any passengers that were supposed to stay on the plane to continue to another destination had to unload now.
They didn't say why but when I left the plane and looked out the window I saw that the front windshield had been completely shattered. We were not told anything about that.
plane2.jpg.68df818934a28dc0e664e97b486de3e0.jpg
 

See what happens when you don't get those rock chips repaired right away.

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2 hours ago, juliann said:

Source? 

If this is accurate, you have one embellished story, one withdrawn story, and one who knows story. And you are comparing this to Paul Dunn? (I thought the withdrawn by "the family" was a nice touch, BTW....as if nobody asked Pres. Nelson and he had to have other people speak for him or was this like Elder Holland, who also had to withdraw a story that he was told by people who made stuff up? Since you mysteriously left out all detail on this story I suspect it wasn't as damning as you needed it to be.

  

 

Smac provided source material for the first. The second story can be found here:

https://www.truthandtransparency.org/news/2019/04/09/false-story-removed-from-newest-book-on-the-life-of-mormon-president-russell-m-nelson/

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