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The Paul H Dunn-ing of President Nelson


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17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Very true! A friend of my husband and I's father apparently wrote out his history for his family to read and our friend thinks his dad either made up a bunch or had a faulty memory. 

Funny, this is what Paul H. Dunn said as well. :)

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42 minutes ago, helix said:

They land at the Delta Airport, which in the 1970s resembles a farmers field (or perhaps even had animals on fields very nearby). 

Here's what it looks like now. Imagine what it looked like 50 years ago.

delta.jpg.6d98ba657f1277638b6282eb8c1121ee.jpg

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4 hours ago, smac97 said:

So the controversy seems to center on purported discrepancies between Pres. Nelson's various retellings of the story and the summary listed in the Civil Aeronautics Board ("CAB") record.  A few thoughts:

Not sure what you are replying to. The thread is confusing because the OP was deleted. Point 2 is “02. A conversion story of a close working associate of then Dr. Nelson and this associates family, whom Nelson was able to assist in converting to the gospel by encouraging them to read the Book of Mormon.”

Juliann asked for background on that. It can be found at the link I provided. 
 

https://www.truthandtransparency.org/news/2019/04/09/false-story-removed-from-newest-book-on-the-life-of-mormon-president-russell-m-nelson/

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35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The comparison to Paul H. Dunn is out there. The contention is that some details changed here. The Paul H. Dunn stories were generally wholesale fabrications.

True and somehow the church has felt it to be ok to keep his conference talks posted. I mean who knows what is fact or fiction in those talks? It took a reporter and a few suspicious people to investigate and put Dunn out to pasture but for a couple decades not one apostle or prophet could figure out he was full of it.  Just wonder why they keep his material up there instead of a placeholder stating something to the effect of  “this guy is a liar and since we don’t know what he said is true or false the entirety of his talks have been removed to prevent any further deception.”

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5 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:
43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The comparison to Paul H. Dunn is out there. The contention is that some details changed here. The Paul H. Dunn stories were generally wholesale fabrications.

True and somehow the church has felt it to be ok to keep his conference talks posted. I mean who knows what is fact or fiction in those talks? It took a reporter and a few suspicious people to investigate and put Dunn out to pasture but for a couple decades not one apostle or prophet could figure out he was full of it.  Just wonder why they keep his material up there instead of a placeholder stating something to the effect of  “this guy is a liar and since we don’t know what he said is true or false the entirety of his talks have been removed to prevent any further deception.”

As missionaries in the early 70's we listened to Paul Dunn talks on tape and, regardless of whether they were true or not, they were inspiring and taught lessons, just like the Parables of Jesus.

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54 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's what it looks like now. Imagine what it looked like 50 years ago.

delta.jpg.6d98ba657f1277638b6282eb8c1121ee.jpg

Yep with a runway 5502ft long x 75’ wide just on one leg of it probably looks about the same as it did then. 
 

additionally, if the runway was widened by just 15 ft an airforce c17 could land and takeoff from delta with runway length to spare. 
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/1529726/c-17-globemaster-iii/

might be a small airfield but in no way could be confused for just some random field. 

Edited by secondclasscitizen
Added c17 info
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1 minute ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Just goes to show even the devil can make someone feel the spirit. 

Wrong. There was no devil involved, they were just stories that taught doctrines that were confirmed by the Holy Ghost. 

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53 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's what it looks like now. Imagine what it looked like 50 years ago.

I lived next to the Ogden airport in the 80s.  That airport used to have many old farm homes adjacent to it.  Homes whose residents could walk out onto their backyard, cross the property line, and walk onto the main runway if they desired.  In the 1990s the federal government started modernizing it by expanding the runways, buying up adjacent property and tearing them down homes, and installing fences.  I just don't recall seeing any farm animals nearby, but all other aspects felt farm-like from the runway end. 

Edited by helix
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23 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Wrong. There was no devil involved, they were just stories that taught doctrines that were confirmed by the Holy Ghost. 

An apostle / seventy / general authority or anyone for that matter telling lies in order to instill faith without disclosure they are not true is not the work of satan? 

Just stories? Need to tell people they are just parables or what not so they know it is made up and is an object lesson. Then at least they can decide how that makes them feel instead of fake stories passed off as real experiences. 
 

please tell me how the lord approves of telling lies in order to spread the gospel.

Edited by secondclasscitizen
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6 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

An apostle / seventy / general authority or anyone for that matter telling lies in order to instill faith without disclosure they are not true is not the work of satan? 

Just stories? Need to tell people they are just parables or what not so they know it is made up and is an object lesson. Then at least they can decide how that makes them feel instead of fake stories passed off as real experiences. 
 

please tell me how the lord approves of telling lies in order to spread the gospel.

I just refuse to pass judgment on a person who had no malicious intent in telling the stories. Satan does not teach true doctrines and principles.

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1 minute ago, JAHS said:

I just refuse to pass judgment on a person who had no malicious intent in telling the stories. Satan does not teach true doctrines and principles.

So by that measure; “no malicious intent” should our missionaries lie to potential converts? I mean it would be good for them to join the church right? Even under false pretenses? 

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13 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

 

Deleted,  headed back into retirement, It's quite apparent that I have long over stayed my welcome. I don't have the time to research this and argue its validity so I'll leave the stage.  I believe this is a real threat to President Nelson and had hoped someone might want to tackle it.  G'Day 

Remember there is a population of Mormons who will defend absolutely anything a general authority or prophet does even if it is wrong. 

I have no idea if Nelson lied or not but I do know there is a population of Mormons who would defend literally any bad conduct- no matter what it is. 
 

there are other forums where you can get a million miles out of this.

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1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

True and somehow the church has felt it to be ok to keep his conference talks posted. I mean who knows what is fact or fiction in those talks? It took a reporter and a few suspicious people to investigate and put Dunn out to pasture but for a couple decades not one apostle or prophet could figure out he was full of it.  Just wonder why they keep his material up there instead of a placeholder stating something to the effect of  “this guy is a liar and since we don’t know what he said is true or false the entirety of his talks have been removed to prevent any further deception.”

If the church had pulled them you would be complaining we were covering them up.

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1 hour ago, JAHS said:

As missionaries in the early 70's we listened to Paul Dunn talks on tape and, regardless of whether they were true or not, they were inspiring and taught lessons, just like the Parables of Jesus.

I can get the same thing from reading other myths.

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4 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Did you read what I wrote? You put a placeholder there that says they were taken down because they were lies. That’s no coverup. You got to be kidding me. 

Nope, they would say it anyways. If we left it up and put a warning on it we would be accused of halfheartedly endorsing the fabrications.

I am not kidding. I am not saying it would be you doing it. Others would.

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Very true! A friend of my husband and I's father apparently wrote out his history for his family to read and our friend thinks his dad either made up a bunch or had a faulty memory. 

I hate my dad’s autobiography and call it a fantasy because of how it portrays me. In essence he has me making the decisions he made for me.  As an obedient and trusting and mostly, as an undemanding child, I put aside how I thought I should do things and did it his way (my rebellion amounted to just going back to my room and reading books or going for long bike rides and otherwise just getting on with my life in ways that didn’t draw attention to myself…but frustrated my parents because they didn’t see it as accomplishing much).

My relationship with my parents now I can look back on the whole of it…they basically figured out who they thought I was before I was a teen and they never needed to rethink that image because I never demanded their attention.  They chose not to spend much time with my family (not only were we not needing rescue which is how they related to people…giving service, but my husband and I weren’t into drama…drama even if troublesome, is interesting) over the years, but were very generous in supporting us in ways they were comfortable with…but visits always seemed to get cut short because of a greater need elsewhere…or just boredom when it came to Dad as he always was needing to keep himself moving and his mind occupied (much like I use the board for distraction due to the disorder I inherited from him…it is either that or knocking us out with drugs, which back when he saw his father dealing with it made things worse).
 

Leaving the cautionary tale behind and back to the topic, my dad spoke the truth as he knew it. Whether it was his habit to see me that way or conflation with what else was going on or because his attention was drawn to something that he then saw as the key to the experience when it was a trivial side issue in my view, what happened with his autobiography was completely predictable given the rest of his life. He never fabricated stories or lied, it would have been too much effort with no payoff he wanted. But he did want to see the world in a certain way and always resisted my efforts to have him consider things from a different POV (pretty much the only teenage conflict we ever had)…why reinvent the wheel was said way too often in my youth when I made suggestions.  But everyone is this way, we see the world as we are and not as it is. And some of us see things as drama where there is little for some reason, even if this means creating problems when there are none. 
 

And when fear gets involved, drama always gets ramped up…at least in the short run.  Drama that some like and others run from.  Imaginations provide explosions for popping sounds or turn gunshots into backfires or place us in the middle of the excitement where we were really just bystanders or make us observers instead of the one threatened or in pain.  We are in control when we were not. It is how we make sense of our feelings many times when our memories are pieces we later want to put together in an coherent, reassuring way. Some reassure themselves by later downplaying the drama; others feel safer I think by upping the drama so it makes sense to them why they were fearful. 
 

I don’t know what happened to Pres Nelson on that flight, but it is not hard for me to imagine that when the crisis whatever it was happened, ideas and images flashed through his mind of what might be going on or what might happen if it got worse…and later those images were perhaps remembered as memories of what took place instead of realizing it was what went through his mind during those moments. I have minor similar experiences all the time where I remember my rehearsals of what I am going to tell people as if I actually had that conversation with them. It is easy to do because I tend to visualize talking to someone when thinking of what to say.  And I have flown enough (Dad worked for United so we flew for free and I have never understood the appeal of road trips) to remember people screaming a few times when some nasty turbulence hit (don’t like flying into Denver).  I am hoping that was never me..panic when I can’t do anything about it makes me freeze, so more likely I had a really stupid look on my face. The Pres Nelson story sounds much more like images that flashed through his mind later being taken for memories of what happened rather than memories of his thoughts to me instead of the creations we make when we want to attract attention to ourselves, portray ourselves as the hero in a little set piece, the one others always depend on or go to for advice, who saves the day. 

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16 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I came here to ask that someone with this kind of background might take up the gantlet and find the woman or pilot on that plane. 

On 30 November 2018, my former housemate and I flew five hours to attend a best mate's wedding. We took two aeroplanes and had one layover. When the second flight was landing, something went wrong. As we approached the landing strip, the aeroplane basically just fell straight down, its wheels hitting the bitumen so hard that it hurt me. Almost immediately, we took off again, but that was not smooth at all. The aeroplane was shuddering and shaking, dipping wings and bouncing around. If loose items hadn't been stowed for landing, they would have been flying all over the cabin. If we hadn't been seatbelted down, we would have been too.

People screamed when we smashed into the landing strip, and people continued to make distressed noises throughout this ordeal, including weeping. It was obvious that many were scared. Mentally, I thought I should be scared too, but I felt an overwhelming sense of peace.

The plane had onboard wi-fi, and I had been using it throughout the flight to chat with my eldest brother (who still lives where we grew up) via my mobile. I thought he needed to know what was happening, so in the midst of all this, I was sending him short messages telling him what was happening. He was scared and wanted to know if we were going to be OK. I responded, 'I hope so'. Things finally settled down, and our second landing went fine. As soon as it was obvious that we were safe, passengers spontaneously erupted into applause.

I can still access all of the messages that my brother and I wrote to each other during this experience, assisting my memory, but to be honest, I have pretty clear recall of it. I've mentioned it to a number of people on a number of occasions, telling them how intense it was.

What I don't know is what happened. Why did we just drop like that? Why was everything so rough after we ascended again? I have no clue. I don't even know if what I experienced is exactly what happened.

It's entirely possible that nothing serious was going on. What I know is that everyone on an aeroplane is aware that she or he is hurtling through the air, and when something unexpected happens, it's scary. I was not the only person on that flight that morning who thought that we were in serious trouble ... whether we were or not. Being in serious trouble is how we experienced what was happening. I suspect the pilots were having a much more informed and therefore possibly very different experience.

I don't know if we have records that I can access, but a member of my ward works for the aviation authority, so I'm going to ask him. Hopefully I'll have an update.

In the meantime, I thought I'd ask my former housemate to tell me what he remembered, so I did that this afternoon. I specifically asked him to tell me what he remembered about what occurred when we landed in the destination city. His response: 'I can't remember??'

So I told him what I remember. His response: 'I wouldn't have remembered if you hadn't told me, and even now I only vaguely remember'.

Interesting. We went through the exact same event, sitting in adjacent seats, but clearly we had two very different experiences.

I don't have a definite point to all this, but that's my experience with once more retelling what I experienced on a scary flight.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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9 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

True and somehow the church has felt it to be ok to keep his conference talks posted. I mean who knows what is fact or fiction in those talks? It took a reporter and a few suspicious people to investigate and put Dunn out to pasture but for a couple decades not one apostle or prophet could figure out he was full of it.  Just wonder why they keep his material up there instead of a placeholder stating something to the effect of  “this guy is a liar and since we don’t know what he said is true or false the entirety of his talks have been removed to prevent any further deception.”

I don't think Pres Nelson's story compares to Paul H. Dunn really. I think it's that generation perhaps, especially in the church. Or how would I know maybe it happens across the board. I don't think some of these men mean to outright lie, I think in their minds they take these experiences and feel through them possibly different than some of us. 

As an side, I was on a flight that was the most calm I've been and I'm normally afraid to land and take off. I guess the flight attendants were good at masking how they feel because they didn't have frightened faces. But we were told that the flaps weren't working as well and that we would be landing a little faster than normal. Now here's my faulty memory too, I probably am forgetting the technical version and will edit after verifying it with my husband. I remember the cabin being extremely quiet and the lights either turned off or low. But we made the softest landing I every remember and when we landed there were fire trucks and ambulances ready for us in case. I remember walking through the tunnel right close to the pilot and hearing his crew congratulating him for a safe landing and all the while I had not known the danger we could have been in. 

Edited by Tacenda
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9 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

So by that measure; “no malicious intent” should our missionaries lie to potential converts? I mean it would be good for them to join the church right? Even under false pretenses? 

My main point is that I am going to reserve judgment to God about a person. I hold no ill will against Elder Dunn. 

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9 hours ago, JAHS said:

As missionaries in the early 70's we listened to Paul Dunn talks on tape and, regardless of whether they were true or not, they were inspiring and taught lessons, just like the Parables of Jesus.

So apparently the spirit testified of a lie to you (an me)>  And they were not presented as parables.  Amazing the concessions you are willing to give when it comes to things LDS.

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