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Why do we desire separation?


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There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

Edited by JLHPROF
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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

I think the reason many feel uncomfortable with it is because when we say we will be Gods, it is focusing on things that are not as important as the reality.

If I pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true… but my understanding of what it means for it to be true includes an addendum that all other books of scripture are evil and from the devil, I will likely get a negative response to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

So if someone is told “You will be a God”, they  likely imagine something like Zeus hurling lightening bolts at everyone, waving your fingers magically at space and planets forming, and snapping your finger and entire realities disappearing. All of which are likely false images of what it means to be God.

We don’t know the reality of what it means to be like God. Nor do we know the full nature of God’s existence. (I say ‘we’ in a general sense. Some may have had it revealed to them)

Personally, I believe we are the same species. The image of him being our father is engrained in me and I feel I have had spiritual confirmation that he is my father.

Additionally, the concepts of living eternally with my father and my earthly family, growing forever and ever, and one day having a perfect love for all sounds more beautiful, truthful, enticing, and reachable than being an old man that can hurl lightening bolts and create worlds. I find the former to be closer to reality and what God intends for us. 
 

Perhaps becoming gods or Gods is accurate, but it comes with too much baggage for it to be justifiably used in a regular sense.

Edited by Fether
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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

Perhaps the difference between God and man is not that we are different kinds of beings (I don't think we are), but that we are different in our stage of progression:

"And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."  (Abraham 3:19)

If you bristle at the idea that God the Father and Jesus Christ have never sinned because that would make them different than us and make something less of our own progression, could it be that they simply established the rules by which righteousness is to be judged and are ahead of the game, and we are being offered an opportunity to participate in the same kind of life and discipline that they enjoy? 

We are also told that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  We may at some point receive all the intelligence and "all things" that God has, but on the scale of work and glory, will we ever be the same as he is?  He will always be our God and we will always be his children.  Not different kinds of beings, but certainly different in our experiences.

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18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

Part of the reason why some may bristle is because they fail to comprehend and appreciate that when men become like God it will only be because God dwells within them. A man cannot become a God unless the mind (Spirit) and power of the very God whom he worships dwells within him in infinite and eternal fulness. Men do not become Gods on their own, but only through the indwelling of the mind, power and might of the Godhead. In other words, men become Gods when God dwells within them; men can’t become God’s on their own.

It never ceases to amaze me just how spiritually blind some people can be. Joseph Smith said he constantly encountered this phenomenon of spiritual blindness among the saints, and it was ever a source of great frustration to him.

Edited by teddyaware
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12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

I wonder if it’s basically for the same reason so many LDS people reject the concept of evolution. That line between mortal and immortal is scary because none of us remember ever crossing it. Church teachings indicate that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically. How could this be if our bodies have evolved? If we can become gods, did God used to look like one of the more ancient primates?  We tend to get tripped up on these types of questions. If God is perfect (which many people seem to interpret as never having sinned), how could we ever progress to that level; ourselves being sinful?

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The King Follett Discourse, and the Sermon in the Grove (a week before the martyrdom) teach that one has to be a savior in order to become a head God (Elohim). So, there are ideas harking back to Joseph Smith that align with exaltation (godhood) for everyone but saviors not entailing becoming a head God. This is further supported by Orson Pratt's talk (at Brigham Young's behest) formally and publicly announcing polygamy before being sent on a mission back East to preach it (sidenote: B.H. Roberts in CHC documents the shot in the arm this preaching was for Saints still living in the East. Everyone knew about polygamy, but the Church had been silent about it. "Timely, and about time!" was how Roberts described it). This talk immediately follows the primary "Adam-God" talk, so around volume 1, page 60 or so. Pratt noted that D&C 76:24 describes spirit children as "begotten unto God," not "of" (he laid great emphasis on the choice of preposition here). Pratt laid out a cosmology where the firstborn of each spirit wife are saviors (with the potential to become head Gods), and exaltation for the rest of God's children consisting of providing spirit children for head Gods. This is also consistent with Brigham Young's teaching that every world has its own savior and tempter (which has always made much more sense to me than Jesus being the only savior of all inhabited worlds in the universe). It's also consistent with what it taught in the temple (for now). 

Many Mormons hate this idea, because they have always thought that we can become head Gods, and they don't want to be spirit children of "lesser gods." My wife and I have no problem whatsoever with our godhood consisting of creating, building, assisting, and providing spirit children for adoption. The fact (under this view) that we might be literal children of other exalted people but adopted and claimed by Elohim seems neat to me. It makes sense, since almost no one is or can be a savior.

Edited by rongo
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16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

Just chiming in to say you are not talking about me or someone like me so I will be bowing out of this discussion.

I have no problem believing I can become like our Father in heaven, and I think I may even be able to do it quickly.  I just need to work a bit more on doing only what he wants me to do or not do.  How long that takes is pretty much up to me.

Up to me because I believe our Father, and our Lord, are already willing and even anxious to help me become as they are, right now.

Edited by bOObOO
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4 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I wonder if it’s basically for the same reason so many LDS people reject the concept of evolution. That line between mortal and immortal is scary because none of us remember ever crossing it. Church teachings indicate that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically. How could this be if our bodies have evolved? If we can become gods, did God used to look like one of the more ancient primates?  We tend to get tripped up on these types of questions. If God is perfect (which many people seem to interpret as never having sinned), how could we ever progress to that level; ourselves being sinful?

There is also a sense of safety, I think, in that we know how much we lack, that there is always a risk in our interactions with other humans that we know here and it is reassuring to think that God is beyond that risk…but we don’t really know how.  If by willpower, that for us would mean the possibility of failure at sometime, so I think some deal with that by focusing on difference to remove any sense of risk.

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I have heard members say that even if they are are faithful, it will be a long time they will become like God.  Apparently comparing their current state to God and thinking that even after the resurrection it will take an enormous amount of time to reach the level of God the Father.  I think they sell themselves short and listen to a lie of the devil.  We call our mortal life as a test.  I think its far more than just another test.  Those who seek to become doctors take many tests in their lives to become doctors from high school to medical school. However the most important test they will take is their board exams. If they pass those, they become doctors.  Other tests may come afterwards but they are doctors at that point.  Mortal life is our board exams to become Gods.  We don't have to worry about learning a lot of new stuff after the resurrection as we pretty much learned all the information to become Gods in the premortal life.  Think of how much we learned in the billions of years before we were born here.  All that knowledge is being withheld from us for now but its not lost.  We are not going to have to start over again.  All of it will be returned to us at some point.  Once the resurrection and restoration of all that we "forgot" has occurred, I think we will find ourselves to the point of being "gods' and knowing all things. 

The scriptures say that Abraham has obtained his exaltation and sits on a throne and is a god.   It is not something in the distant future for him.  He passed his board exam and is he a god.   I think that same is true for most if not all of us.  We are closer to exaltation than we can imagine.  It is also the great tragedy of this life as well for those who do not make it.  All that time in the premortal life learning and taking tests and losing it right at the end.   Like running a 400 meter race and falling at 395 meter mark.   Yes mortal life is a test, but it is more than just another test.  It is THE test.  It is our celestial board exam.

Edited by carbon dioxide
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20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

I think that it is a deep-seated reverence that was inculcated, that perhaps was a naturally-occurring consequence of our divine upbringing. It follows us from the Pre-existence to mortality. Even some atheists seem to feel it, even while denying that true Divinity even exists. 

This leads to the natural rejection of the idea that we are of the same species as the Almighty. It's an essential humility; an avoidance of hubris that even the most prideful of us are subject to. 

And upon reflection, for the first time I think I understand the reason why that one-third of the hosts of heaven were cast out after the war in heaven. I had a very hard time understanding how it was that so many were able to rebel in favor of Lucifer against Father. Now the idea occurs to me that he and all those who followed after him did not have that particularly humility, or had it but rejected it. While we do not have Lucifer's own testimony, the records states that he demanded Father give him His honor, in exchange for the trammeling of agency, in order to make sure all who enter mortality came back unstained (but ultimately untested and incapable of exaltation). In other words, they rebelled because they could imagine to themselves that they could exceed the Father. Which none of us can; we shall be forever indebted to Him, but He raises us to be like Him.

So naturally we are uncomfortable when hearing the idea that we can be like God. That we can only be gods, not Gods. Except that requires that we try to explain away the plain words of the New Testament: Joint-heirs with Christ. Is Christ of the same species as the Father? Of course He is, and therefore so are we.  But in our current state we find this naturally difficult to credit, for ultimately we do recognize our subordination.

 

Edited by Stargazer
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1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

I have heard members say that even if they are are faithful, it will be a long time they will become like God.  Apparently comparing their current state to God and thinking that even after the resurrection it will take an enormous amount of time to reach the level of God the Father.  I think they sell themselves short and listen to a lie of the devil.  We call our mortal life as a test.  I think its far more than just another test.  Those who seek to become doctors take many tests in their lives to become doctors from high school to medical school. However the most important test they will take is their board exams. If they pass those, they become doctors.  Other tests may come afterwards but they are doctors at that point.  Mortal life is our board exams to become Gods.  We don't have to worry about learning a lot of new stuff after the resurrection as we pretty much learned all the information to become Gods in the premortal life.  Think of how much we learned in the billions of years before we were born here.  All that knowledge is being withheld from us for now but its not lost.  We are not going to have to start over again.  All of it will be returned to us at some point.  Once the resurrection and restoration of all that we "forgot" has occurred, I think we will find ourselves to the point of being "gods' and knowing all things. 

The scriptures say that Abraham has obtained his exaltation and sits on a throne and is a god.   It is not something in the distant future for him.  He passed his board exam and is he a god.   I think that same is true for most if not all of us.  We are closer to exaltation than we can imagine.  It is also the great tragedy of this life as well for those who do not make it.  All that time in the premortal life learning and taking tests and losing it right at the end.   Like running a 400 meter race and falling at 395 meter mark.   Yes mortal life is a test, but it is more than just another test.  It is THE test.  It is our celestial board exam.

I do see what you're saying, but I think that time and space in the eternities is not what we see here. The Father created the Universe, if the scientists are correct, 13.5 billion years ago. And if nothing happens to it outside of what appears to be its natural progression, it will continue for many trillions of years, perhaps even thousands or millions of trillions of years from now, until either its heat death, or some other rolling up that God initiates or finalizes. What I see is that God does not live in our present, or our Time and Place, but He is completely outside of the universe that we perceive, and He sees this entire universe from end to end in Place and end to end in Time. Time does not exist for Him -- or at least, Time in the sense we perceive.  This means that every spirit that God sent into mortality on every planet that ever existed, or will ever exist, has already reached his or her final judgment in God's Kingdom, and has been rewarded appropriately. Our perception of Time is linear only. We are limited; God is not.

So when it comes to the idea that it will take us one year, a hundred, or a million years to become as God -- this is a meaningless concept within the mortal universe.

Edited by Stargazer
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2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I do see what you're saying, but I think that time and space in the eternities is not what we see here. The Father created the Universe, if the scientists are correct, 13.5 billion years ago. And if nothing happens to it outside of what appears to be its natural progression, it will continue for many trillions of years, perhaps even thousands or millions of trillions of years from now, until either its heat death, or some other rolling up that God initiates or finalizes. What I see is that God does not live in our present, or our Time and Place, but He is completely outside of the universe that we perceive, and He sees this entire universe from end to end in Place and end to end in Time. Time does not exist for Him -- or at least, Time in the sense we perceive.  This means that every spirit that God sent into mortality on every planet that ever existed, or will ever exist, has already reached his or her final judgment in God's Kingdom, and has been rewarded appropriately. Our perception of Time is linear only. We are limited; God is not.

So the idea that it will take us one year, a hundred, or a million years to become as God? A meaningless concept within the mortal universe.

When someone thinks time is a mortal construct I think they mean time as we reckon it based on our sun and Greenwich mean time while also accounting for various time zones on this planet.  I do not think they mean the concepts of past, present and future, which I regard as eternal.  There will always be past, present and future, even for God, because some things have already happened, in the past, or are happening now, in the present, or will happen at some time in the future.  Even God has things he hasn't done yet, like coming to this planet to make it a celestial planet.  So when will we be like our Father in heaven, perfectly, as joint heirs with Jesus Christ.  When it happens, if it happens, and as of this moment in time it has not happened yet.

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3 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

When someone thinks time is a mortal construct I think they mean time as we reckon it based on our sun and Greenwich mean time while also accounting for various time zones on this planet.  I do not think they mean the concepts of past, present and future, which I regard as eternal.  There will always be past, present and future, even for God, because some things have already happened, in the past, or are happening now, in the present, or will happen at some time in the future.  Even God has things he hasn't done yet, like coming to this planet to make it a celestial planet.  So when will we be like our Father in heaven, perfectly, as joint heirs with Jesus Christ.  When it happens, if it happens, and as of this moment in time it has not happened yet.

Yes, but we are inside of a bubble of space-time, a bubble which God created and which he knows in detail from beginning to end. A billion trillion years of our time is instantaneous in His space-time.

And while I can write the words to express this idea, I cannot truly conceive it while within this space-time.

I had an amazing realization while reading physicist Stephen Hawking's last book, in which he wrote of the existence of God. 

Hawking wrote:

"As we travel back in time towards the moment of the Big Bang, the universe gets smaller and smaller and smaller, until it finally comes to a point where the whole universe is a space so small that it is in effect a single infinitesimally small, infinitesimally dense black hole. And just as with modern-day black holes, floating around in space, the laws of nature dictate something quite extraordinary. They tell us that here too time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the Big Bang because there was no time before the Big Bang. We have finally found something that doesn’t have a cause, because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means that there is no possibility of a creator, because there is no time for a creator to have existed in."

Whatever one thinks of Big Bangs, the brilliant Hawking seems to have missed a very important absurdity in these last two sentences.

In order for a creator to have created the Big Bang, he could not possibly be in the universe then created, because it would have required that He create Himself. Which is an absurdity. So that which is the Cause of the universe had to have caused it from outside that universe -- and thus the argument that "there [was] no time for a creator to have existed in" fails. 

And as you imply, the Creator's time is not our time. 

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, but we are inside of a bubble of space-time, a bubble which God created and which he knows in detail from beginning to end. A billion trillion years of our time is instantaneous in His space-time.

And while I can write the words to express this idea, I cannot truly conceive it while within this space-time.

I had an amazing realization while reading physicist Stephen Hawking's last book, in which he wrote of the existence of God. 

Hawking wrote:

"As we travel back in time towards the moment of the Big Bang, the universe gets smaller and smaller and smaller, until it finally comes to a point where the whole universe is a space so small that it is in effect a single infinitesimally small, infinitesimally dense black hole. And just as with modern-day black holes, floating around in space, the laws of nature dictate something quite extraordinary. They tell us that here too time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the Big Bang because there was no time before the Big Bang. We have finally found something that doesn’t have a cause, because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means that there is no possibility of a creator, because there is no time for a creator to have existed in."

Whatever one thinks of Big Bangs, the brilliant Hawking seems to have missed a very important absurdity in these last two sentences.

In order for a creator to have created the Big Bang, he could not possibly be in the universe then created, because it would have required that He create Himself. Which is an absurdity. So that which is the Cause of the universe had to have caused it from outside that universe -- and thus the argument that "there [was] no time for a creator to have existed in" fails. 

And as you imply, the Creator's time is not our time. 

Not at all what I was thinking and not how I see things from my perspective.  Our Father's time is not our time because he is not on Greenwich mean time or in one of our time zones... Pacific, Mountain, Central, etc.  He is on a different planet altogether.

And where he is there is a past and a present and a future pertaining to that planet or whatever type of orb it is... perhaps a sun rather than a planet.  And just like us he lives in the present while realizing the past and expecting a future.

Maybe you should sing Hie to Kolob again while getting in tune with the Holy Spirit, again.

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49 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Not at all what I was thinking and not how I see things from my perspective.  Our Father's time is not our time because he is not on Greenwich mean time or in one of our time zones... Pacific, Mountain, Central, etc.  He is on a different planet altogether.

And where he is there is a past and a present and a future pertaining to that planet or whatever type of orb it is... perhaps a sun rather than a planet.  And just like us he lives in the present while realizing the past and expecting a future.

Maybe you should sing Hie to Kolob again while getting in tune with the Holy Spirit, again.

Well, I won't insist upon my version of things to you, if you insist on keeping God restricted to a planet. Or a sun.

I know that my version is hard for some folk to visualize.

But I do reject your suggestion that I am not in tune with the Holy Spirit. Who are you to judge?

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15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I won't insist upon my version of things to you, if you insist on keeping God restricted to a planet. Or a sun.

I know that my version is hard for some folk to visualize.

But I do reject your suggestion that I am not in tune with the Holy Spirit. Who are you to judge?

My suggestion that you sing the hymn Hie to Kolob while feeling the influence of the Holy Spirit, again, was perhaps poorly worded.  I was simply suggesting you sing the hymn while feeling the power of those words in that hymn.  I have felt and usually feel a very strong assurance from the Holy Spirit when I sing that hymn, based on those words, and I believe your words were inconsistent with that assurance.  But perhaps you have somehow found some way to bridge that gap.

I do believe our Father lives on an orb of some kind, probably a planet I think rather than a sun, or a moon, because there are not many other viable options.  On a ship, sometimes, maybe a really nice, big ship, but not likely where he would like to be forever.  Otherwise, if not living on something in space, then he is just floating around out there in space, constantly hovering somehow, rarely setting foot on any object.  He is a man, you know, with a body, and I believe he knows how to create planets that he would like to live on.  Maybe not in a house like you and me, maybe just in a nice, big cave with a really nice view of an ocean or a forest or maybe both.  Probably the kind of place where I would like to live with my wife when I become as perfect as he is.  With a lot of space around me for family when they come to visit.

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19 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

do believe our Father lives on an orb of some kind, probably a planet I think rather than a sun, or a moon, because there are not many other viable options.  On a ship, sometimes, maybe a really nice, big ship, but not likely where he would like to be forever.  Otherwise, if not living on something in space, then he is just floating around out there in space, constantly hovering somehow, rarely setting foot on any object.  He is a man, you know, with a body, and I believe he knows how to create planets that he would like to live on.  Maybe not in a house like you and me, maybe just in a nice, big cave with a really nice view of an ocean or a forest or maybe both.  Probably the kind of place where I would like to live with my wife when I become as perfect as he is.  With a lot of space around me for family when they come to visit.

If I remember correctly, you also believe you’ll be doing laundry in heaven, right Ahab?

Edited by MiserereNobis
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25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If I remember correctly, you also believe you’ll be doing laundry in heaven, right Ahab?

I won't reply as Ahab, but yes if we are going to be wearing clothes forever while we are in heaven, then we will either need to clean our clothes occasionally, or throw those away and make some new clothes or have new clothes made for us.

Seems wasteful to me though to think of throwing clothes away just because they have some dirt or food on them.  So I think we'll have 2 options, either cleaning them, somehow, or find someone who will make some new clothes for us.

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On 7/26/2021 at 8:03 PM, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

Perhaps members hedge because they've seen the church hedge in it's Gospel Topics Essay- Becoming like God.

The topic surely isn't taught the same way it once was which leads to a lack of confidence.

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4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Perhaps members hedge because they've seen the church hedge in it's Gospel Topics Essay- Becoming like God.

The topic surely isn't taught the same way it once was which leads to a lack of confidence.

I'm not really thinking it's a confidence issue with the doctrine.  It's definitely a pedestal issue.  If I view Christ and the Father as unattainably higher than mortal man could ever be then I feel less bothered by my own imperfections.

We in general don't like the idea of a God who used to be just like us.  We want a God that has always been utterly perfect.  If we view him as an unreachable glorious authority instead of a goal to strive towards it lets us off the hook a bit.

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4 hours ago, bOObOO said:

My suggestion that you sing the hymn Hie to Kolob while feeling the influence of the Holy Spirit, again, was perhaps poorly worded. 

No worries. I was probably being oversensitive.

4 hours ago, bOObOO said:

I do believe our Father lives on an orb of some kind, probably a planet I think rather than a sun, or a moon, because there are not many other viable options.  On a ship, sometimes, maybe a really nice, big ship, but not likely where he would like to be forever.  Otherwise, if not living on something in space, then he is just floating around out there in space, constantly hovering somehow, rarely setting foot on any object.  He is a man, you know, with a body, and I believe he knows how to create planets that he would like to live on.  Maybe not in a house like you and me, maybe just in a nice, big cave with a really nice view of an ocean or a forest or maybe both.  Probably the kind of place where I would like to live with my wife when I become as perfect as he is.  With a lot of space around me for family when they come to visit.

One thing I have noticed is that virtually all Christians visualize resurrection/heaven as just like mortal life, but a First Class version of it, with no cares, no sickness, and no death, but otherwise just like their mortal life. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. The scriptures are full of verbiage that tries to exalt the visualization, to indicate that things will be significantly better than our expectations. But if all we can imagine is a First Class version of our mortality, no problem. Our salvation/exaltation does not depend upon our understanding of this. I have a rather more expansive view of the matter, based on what I see others write about it, that's all. 

Of course Father dwells in one "place". Is it an orb? Maybe. Does it need to be? The sole indication we have of "where" is found in Abraham 3:3-4:

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

Kolob is near to God. But what is "near" in this context. Does it mean physically near? Or spiritually near? He says that Kolob is set to govern all those stars belonging to the same order that we stand on. What order is that? Where is it? If I choose to imagine Kolob as the black hole sitting in the center of our galaxy, that's just as valid as any other imagined idea. 

There are no answers to these questions. Kolob could just as well be a "state capital", so to speak, whereas the "federal capital" is wherever the Father actually does dwell. Is this "federal capital" even located in this universe? Or outside this universe? 

The Father's physical form need not dwell on an orb; but if that is how one wishes to imagine things, there's nothing wrong with this. He obviously has instant access to all times and places within His creation, so His exact location is immaterial. IMHO. YMMV.

Edited by Stargazer
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22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm not really thinking it's a confidence issue with the doctrine.  It's definitely a pedestal issue.  If I view Christ and the Father as unattainably higher than mortal man could ever be then I feel less bothered by my own imperfections.

We in general don't like the idea of a God who used to be just like us.  We want a God that has always been utterly perfect.  If we view him as an unreachable glorious authority instead of a goal to strive towards it lets us off the hook a bit.

But do you view the resistance to the doctrine increasing? If so, why is resistance increasing? Or has it always been the way you see it and you just happen to be commenting on it now?

Personally, I don't think there would have been a significant resistance to the idea of becoming like God (in every way) 10-20-30 years ago.

I view the change as reflective of leadership, or at least the PR arm of the church.

Edited by HappyJackWagon
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On 7/26/2021 at 6:03 PM, JLHPROF said:

There are two new threads today addressing our potential exaltation as Gods and God's mortal origin.

Both threads contain statements arguing that God (and probably Christ) are simply different kinds of beings than the rest of us.

I'd like to discuss the mindset we have as believers in God that makes so many of us want to keep this differentiation strong.  Many members bristle at the idea we become Gods, instead saying gods.  Joint heirs?  Not really exactly having every blessing Christ receives.  Some even seem to loathe any comparison between us and Deity.

Why do we want to keep godhood on an unreachable pedestal?  Why do we want to keep God and Christ eternally different from us? Why can't many of us believe we can become exactly as they are, even if it takes millennia?

I think we have it backwards.

The way we should see it is that we have  a God who had the option of  transcendence and all that implies, and made a free choice to give it all up so He could be US, a worm child crawling in the mud, because he loved us.

It's not that He's too high for us to aspire to his level, what is unbelievable to me is that He gave it all up for US, to enable us to become LIKE HIM.

THAT was Christ's sacrifice: to take on the punishments applied to sinners like us so He could be enough like us to show us the way back.

He took on our form to be like us so we could be like him, to die like him so we could be like him in death, that we might live again like Him in the eternities.

He gave us that.

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

No worries. I was probably being oversensitive.

One thing I have noticed is that virtually all Christians visualize resurrection/heaven as just like mortal life, but a First Class version of it, with no cares, no sickness, and no death, but otherwise just like their mortal life. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. The scriptures are full of verbiage that tries to exalt the visualization, to indicate that things will be significantly better than our expectations. But if all we can imagine is a First Class version of our mortality, no problem. Our salvation/exaltation does not depend upon our understanding of this. I have a rather more expansive view of the matter, based on what I see others write about it, that's all.

Of course Father dwells in one "place". Is it an orb? Maybe. Does it need to be? The sole indication we have of "where" is found in Abraham 3:3-4:

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

Kolob is near to God. But what is "near" in this context. Does it mean physically near? Or spiritually near? He says that Kolob is set to govern all those stars belonging to the same order that we stand on. What order is that? Where is it? If I choose to imagine Kolob as the black hole sitting in the center of our galaxy, that's just as valid as any other imagined idea. 

There are no answers to these questions. Kolob could just as well be a "state capital", so to speak, whereas the "federal capital" is wherever the Father actually does dwell. Is this "federal capital" even located in this universe? Or outside this universe? 

The Father's physical form need not dwell on an orb; but if that is how one wishes to imagine things, there's nothing wrong with this. He obviously has instant access to all times and places within His creation, so His exact location is immaterial. IMHO. YMMV.

I appreciate the spirit with which you are giving and taking and it's not really important that we understand all of those details now.  While sharing and exchanging ideasa I just like to point out when I do and when I do not agree, sometimes, if I feel my thoughts are welcomed by whoever I am sharing and exchanging my ideas with.  So don't take it too hard if I tell you I don't agree with you on something or another.  It's just me sharing my ideas with whoever I think may be interested in them.  And you are most welcome to share your ideas with me, whatever they may be, at which point I will usually share my ideas with you.

The Kolob thing being a black hole thing, meh, I'm not really in favor of that idea, at least not as something our Father lives on or near.  He was talking, through our Lord as his mediator, about things that govern planets such as the one we now live on, calling Kolob a great one because it governs a greater order of planets than the one we live on and is near to him.  So unless there are lesser black holes and black holes govern planets it sounds more likely that Kolob is some kind of star that governs the order of planets our Father lives on, like how suns govern planets by holding those planets in orbit that are near them.  Like our sun in our solar system governs the planets in our solar system.  So from that I gather that our sun is in orbit around some other sun with other suns of the same order as our sun, with each sun governing planets around each sun.  We aren't told there how many orders of suns and planets there are and I think there are a heck of a lot more than only 3 orders, but we can see how suns can be said to be governors of planets by dictating their orbits with gravity.  So there you have it.  My reasoning for why I believe our Father dwells on a planet near a sun called Kolob that is far enough away from a black hole so that his planet and the sun it orbits doesn't get sucked into a black hole.  YMMV

Edited by bOObOO
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