Ye are gods - A BYU speech from 2012

[theplains]

From the historical archives.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/tad-r-callister/our-identity-and-our-destiny/

TAD R. CALLISTER
Of the Presidency of the Seventy

August 14, 2012

Being immersed in a world of good and evil, having the capacity to choose, and 
being able to draw upon the powers of the Atonement resulted in man having 
unlimited opportunities to progress toward his destiny of godhood.

To this He readily acknowledged that He was and declared that they should be 
likewise: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:32–34; 
emphasis added). In other words, He said not only am I a god, but all of you 
are potential gods. He was referring to His own Old Testament declaration, 
with which the Jews should have been familiar: “Ye are gods; and all of you 
are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). The Savior was merely reaffirming 
a basic gospel teaching that all men are children of God, and thus all might 
become like Him.

When I read the passages spoken by Jesus, I don't see that the form "you are"
is changed to mean the future whereas the form "I am" is preserved to mean the 
present.

And it is exactly what the Savior promised in this dispensation for all faithful 
Saints: “Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels 
are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20; see also verse 19; see also D&C 76:58–60).

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the 
impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He 
said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words...
The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in 
for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.8

For several centuries this doctrinal truth survived, but eventually the Apostasy 
took its toll, and this doctrine in its purity and expansiveness was lost. The 
doctrine of man’s potential for godhood as taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith was 
not his invention—not his creation, not conjured up by some fertile mind. It was 
simply and solely a restoration of a glorious truth that had been taught in the 
scriptures and by many early Christian writers of the primitive Church.

Perhaps B. H. Roberts expressed it best when he said:

If within the short space of mortal life there are men who rise up out of infancy 
and become masters of the elements of fire and water and earth and air, so that 
they well-nigh rule them as Gods, what may it not be possible for them to do in 
a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years? 26

Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.  But there is
no indication whether it took him a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years.
 

This does not mean they became gods who replaced our Father in Heaven but rather 
exalted men who have enlarged capabilities to honor and glorify Him. Our Father 
in Heaven will forever stand supreme as our God, whom we will love and revere 
and worship, worlds without end.

There is a different implication taught in the 1997 version of Gospel Principles
in the Exaltation chapter.

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father
and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them
and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit
children will have the same relationship to them as we do
to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

According to #3, it seems to be implied that the children of some world  that you 
create and populate (if you become a God) worship you like you worship the Heavenly 
Father of Earth (since it is the same relationship).  If this is incorrect, then
why do you worship Heavenly Father of Earth instead of his Father?

Thank you,
Jim

Edited July 26, 2021 by theplains

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, theplains said:

From the historical archives.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/tad-r-callister/our-identity-and-our-destiny/

TAD R. CALLISTER
Of the Presidency of the Seventy

August 14, 2012

Being immersed in a world of good and evil, having the capacity to choose, and 
being able to draw upon the powers of the Atonement resulted in man having 
unlimited opportunities to progress toward his destiny of godhood.

To this He readily acknowledged that He was and declared that they should be 
likewise: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:32–34; 
emphasis added). In other words, He said not only am I a god, but all of you 
are potential gods. He was referring to His own Old Testament declaration, 
with which the Jews should have been familiar: “Ye are gods; and all of you 
are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). The Savior was merely reaffirming 
a basic gospel teaching that all men are children of God, and thus all might 
become like Him.

When I read the passages spoken by Jesus, I don't see that the form "you are"
is changed to mean the future whereas the form "I am" is preserved to mean the 
present.

And it is exactly what the Savior promised in this dispensation for all faithful 
Saints: “Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels 
are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20; see also verse 19; see also D&C 76:58–60).

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the 
impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He 
said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words...
The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in 
for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.8

For several centuries this doctrinal truth survived, but eventually the Apostasy 
took its toll, and this doctrine in its purity and expansiveness was lost. The 
doctrine of man’s potential for godhood as taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith was 
not his invention—not his creation, not conjured up by some fertile mind. It was 
simply and solely a restoration of a glorious truth that had been taught in the 
scriptures and by many early Christian writers of the primitive Church.

Perhaps B. H. Roberts expressed it best when he said:

If within the short space of mortal life there are men who rise up out of infancy 
and become masters of the elements of fire and water and earth and air, so that 
they well-nigh rule them as Gods, what may it not be possible for them to do in 
a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years? 26

Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.  But there is
no indication whether it took him a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years.
 

This does not mean they became gods who replaced our Father in Heaven but rather 
exalted men who have enlarged capabilities to honor and glorify Him. Our Father 
in Heaven will forever stand supreme as our God, whom we will love and revere 
and worship, worlds without end.

There is a different implication taught in the 1997 version of Gospel Principles
in the Exaltation chapter.

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father
and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them
and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit
children will have the same relationship to them as we do
to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

According to #3, it seems to be implied that the children of some world  that you 
create and populate (if you become a God) worship you like you worship the Heavenly 
Father of Earth (since it is the same relationship).  If this is incorrect, then
why do you worship Heavenly Father of Earth instead of his Father?

Thank you,
Jim

#3 states that the relationship is that of an eternal family, and does not say we will be worshipped as we currently worship Heavenly Father.

But what if one infers that we, as exalted beings, are to be worshipped as Heavenly Father is? You may regard any mortal ancestor the same as (or perhaps above) your own father -- nothing wrong with that if that is what your father taught you.

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

From the historical archives.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/tad-r-callister/our-identity-and-our-destiny/

TAD R. CALLISTER
Of the Presidency of the Seventy

August 14, 2012

Being immersed in a world of good and evil, having the capacity to choose, and being able to draw upon the powers of the Atonement resulted in man having unlimited opportunities to progress toward his destiny of godhood.

To this He readily acknowledged that He was and declared that they should be likewise: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:32–34; emphasis added). In other words, He said not only am I a god, but all of you are potential gods. He was referring to His own Old Testament declaration, with which the Jews should have been familiar: “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). The Savior was merely reaffirming a basic gospel teaching that all men are children of God, and thus all might become like Him.

So far, so good.

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

When I read the passages spoken by Jesus, I don't see that the form "you are" is changed to mean the future whereas the form "I am" is preserved to mean the present.

Okay.  But I think the context matters quite a bit here.  The statement in question ("Ye are gods") were not spoken anew by Jesus.  Rather, he was quoting Psalm 82:

Quote

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Verse 1 provides some important context.  What is this "congregation of the mighty?"  What is this divine assembly?

Verse 6 also.  Who are these purportedly divine beings?

Verse 7 also.  How could "gods" "die like men?"

Psalm 82 being a poem, how literally should it be construed ("poetic license" and all that)?

I have found the following article, written by Daniel C. Peterson, to be very helpful: Ye Are Gods: Psalm 82 and John 10 as Witnesses to the Divine Nature of Humankind

In this article DCP provides a fairly substantial survey of the relevant scholarly treatment of the John 10 and Psalm 82, then compares and contrasts the Latter-day Saint concepts of A) plurality of gods, B) a premortal divine assembly, C) human beings as "of the same genus or species as God" (particularly in a nascent/emryonic sense), and more.  He states:

Quote

But can human beings be called “gods” now? In an obvious sense, no. Yet just as an acorn is much more to be called an oak than it can be termed a soup or a submarine or even a palm tree, there is another sense in which they clearly can be termed “gods” even now. And at least some early Christians were apparently quite willing to do so.  The illustrious third-century church father Clement of Alexandria, for example, wrote that Heraclitus, the equally illustrious pre-Socratic philosopher, correctly declared that “Men are gods, and gods are men.”

The article is long (40 pages, excluding footnotes), but it's definitely worth a read for anyone seriously interested in understanding how Latter-day Saint doctrine and belief fit with John 10 and Psalm 82.

As an aside, I think it is really cool that we live in a time when such substantive materials are immediately and freely available to pretty much anyone on the planet (though it being in English is an impediment for many).

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

This does not mean they became gods who replaced our Father in Heaven but rather exalted men who have enlarged capabilities to honor and glorify Him. Our Father in Heaven will forever stand supreme as our God, whom we will love and revere and worship, worlds without end.

There is a different implication taught in the 1997 version of Gospel Principles in the Exaltation chapter.

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

I'm not sure I see the "different implication" you reference here.

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

According to #3, it seems to be implied that the children of some world that you create and populate (if you become a God) worship you like you worship the Heavenly Father of Earth (since it is the same relationship).  

Yep, I don't have an answer to this.  There seems to be a difference of kind between us and Heavenly Father, namely, His and Jehovah's perfection.

I'm not particularly worried about it, though.  I figure things will be made clear to us in the long run.

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

If this is incorrect, then why do you worship Heavenly Father of Earth instead of his Father?

We worship Him whom the Savior tells us to worship.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bOObOO]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

3. They will have their righteous family members with them
and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit
children will have the same relationship to them as we do
to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

According to #3, it seems to be implied that the children of some world  that you 
create and populate (if you become a God) worship you like you worship the Heavenly 
Father of Earth (since it is the same relationship).  If this is incorrect, then
why do you worship Heavenly Father of Earth instead of his Father?

Thank you,
Jim

It is correct, I think.  I believe our spirit children will worship their spiritual Father (and Mother) in heaven, and I will teach my spirit children who I worship just as I expect that our Father will teach us who he worships, as we will also see for ourselves.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

From the historical archives.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/tad-r-callister/our-identity-and-our-destiny/

TAD R. CALLISTER
Of the Presidency of the Seventy

August 14, 2012

Being immersed in a world of good and evil, having the capacity to choose, and 
being able to draw upon the powers of the Atonement resulted in man having 
unlimited opportunities to progress toward his destiny of godhood.

To this He readily acknowledged that He was and declared that they should be 
likewise: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:32–34; 
emphasis added). In other words, He said not only am I a god, but all of you 
are potential gods. He was referring to His own Old Testament declaration, 
with which the Jews should have been familiar: “Ye are gods; and all of you 
are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). The Savior was merely reaffirming 
a basic gospel teaching that all men are children of God, and thus all might 
become like Him.

When I read the passages spoken by Jesus, I don't see that the form "you are"
is changed to mean the future whereas the form "I am" is preserved to mean the 
present.

And it is exactly what the Savior promised in this dispensation for all faithful 
Saints: “Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels 
are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20; see also verse 19; see also D&C 76:58–60).

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the 
impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He 
said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words...
The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in 
for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.8

For several centuries this doctrinal truth survived, but eventually the Apostasy 
took its toll, and this doctrine in its purity and expansiveness was lost. The 
doctrine of man’s potential for godhood as taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith was 
not his invention—not his creation, not conjured up by some fertile mind. It was 
simply and solely a restoration of a glorious truth that had been taught in the 
scriptures and by many early Christian writers of the primitive Church.

Perhaps B. H. Roberts expressed it best when he said:

If within the short space of mortal life there are men who rise up out of infancy 
and become masters of the elements of fire and water and earth and air, so that 
they well-nigh rule them as Gods, what may it not be possible for them to do in 
a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years? 26

Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God.  But there is
no indication whether it took him a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years.
 

This does not mean they became gods who replaced our Father in Heaven but rather 
exalted men who have enlarged capabilities to honor and glorify Him. Our Father 
in Heaven will forever stand supreme as our God, whom we will love and revere 
and worship, worlds without end.

There is a different implication taught in the 1997 version of Gospel Principles
in the Exaltation chapter.

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father
and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them
and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit
children will have the same relationship to them as we do
to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

According to #3, it seems to be implied that the children of some world  that you 
create and populate (if you become a God) worship you like you worship the Heavenly 
Father of Earth (since it is the same relationship).  If this is incorrect, then
why do you worship Heavenly Father of Earth instead of his Father?

Thank you,
Jim

Because Christ commands us to worship the being who is the literal Father of our spirits, in the same way God commands earthly fathers to stand at the head of leadership in their own families. It’s called the Patriarchal order, and can be seen in both substance and action all throughout the Old and New Testaments.

And as far as being called gods in the here and now, it’s nothing more than an acknowledgment that human beings are of the race of Gods who were created the image and likeness of God. Christ was every bit God even at the time when he was a helpless infant who was dependent upon his parents who were commanded to raise him in the nature and admonition of the Lord until the time that he was was no longer under their authority and discipline. Joseph was warned to take the Christ child into Egypt, not Joseph’s father. Eventually, through the  process of continually receiving increased grace for grace, the Lord was finally made perfect, thereby becoming the author of our salvation. A member of the race of gods who is not fully mature can still be rightly called a god, in the same way a human man child is rightly considered a member of the race of man by birthright.

Edited July 26, 2021 by teddyaware

[bOObOO]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Because Christ commands us to worship the being who is the literal Father of our spirits, in the same way God commands earthly fathers to stand at the head of leadership in their own families. It’s called the Patriarchal order, and can be seen in both substance and action all throughout the Old and New Testaments.

And as far as being called gods in the here and now, it’s nothing more than an acknowledgment human beings are the race of Gods who were created in his own image. Christ was every bit God even at the time when he was yet a helpless infant who was dependent upon his parents who were commanded to raise him in the nature and admonition of the Lord until the time that he was was no longer under their authority and discipline. Joseph was warned to tale the Christ child into Egypt, not Joseph’s father. Eventually, through the  process of continually receiving increased grace for grace, the Lord was finally mad perfect, thereby becoming the author of our salvation. A member of the race of gods who is not fully mature can still be rightly called a god, in the same way a human child is considered a member of the race of man by birthright.

Good point regarding the kind of being we are.  Human is a secular term, not used by our Father in heaven.  We are either male or female, men or women, or boys or girls.  We are God, or persons who are God, or Gods while still we are the same kind of being.

[teddyaware]

56 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Good point regarding the kind of being we are.  Human is a secular term, not used by our Father in heaven.  We are either male or female, men or women, or boys or girls.  We are God, or persons who are God, or Gods while still we are the same kind of being.

While ‘human’ may be regarded as a secular term, Church leaders and scholars alike have often used it in a gospel context throughout the years.

[bOObOO]

23 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

While ‘human’ may be regarded as a secular term, Church leaders and scholars alike have often used it in a gospel context throughout the years.

Which is unfortunate, in my perspective, because when basically they are trying to teach others that we are the same kind of being God is then it comes across as if they are saying God is human. It adds to confusion where we do not need any.

But then again, I think sometimes God wants us to work things out with him with a lot of study and prayer rather than giving us knowledge on a silver platter.  I think he could be a lot plainer if he really wanted to be.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

When I read the passages spoken by Jesus, I don't see that the form "you are"
is changed to mean the future whereas the form "I am" is preserved to mean the 
present.

I have never been a huge fan of using the Bible to prove our beliefs. It’s like using chemistry to prove all the concepts of quantum theory. I’m sure there is evidence of it in Chemistry, but there are so many more fields of study to pull from that can more fully show what we believe. 
 

I cringe a little when I see missionaries and people in debates use John 3:5 to prove baptism is necessary, or Paul being caught up in the third heaven as proof of there being degrees of glory. The same is often done with Baptisms for the dead and the spirit world. We don’t need our doctrine to be proven in the Bible, we believe in continuing revelation and scripture.

Though I believe all these reference we use are evidence of the doctrine, they are not and should not be used as proof, or a source of where our unique beliefs come from. Our unique beliefs come from more full revelations… not some one off comment made by an apostle in a larger document.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Fether

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, bOObOO said:

Which is unfortunate, in my perspective, because when basically they are trying to teach others that we are the same kind of being God is then it comes across as if they are saying God is human. It adds to confusion where we do not need any.

But then again, I think sometimes God wants us to work things out with him with a lot of study and prayer rather than giving us knowledge on a silver platter.  I think he could be a lot plainer if he really wanted to be.

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Further, the word ‘human’ means “having to do with man.” So a human is a living being with the biological composition, attributes, intelligence, and characteristics of a man. So I’m trying to fathom why the word human is somehow deficient to the word man in the context of the gospel. Are not the two words interchangeable? What’s the difference between a man and a male human being? It appears as if you’re drawing a distinction without any substantive difference. Do you believe God was once a man who lived on a planet like this one?

[bOObOO]

43 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Further, the word ‘human’ means “having to do with man.” So a human is a living being with the biological composition, attributes, intelligence, and characteristics of a man. So I’m trying to fathom why the word human is somehow deficient to the word man in the context of the gospel. Are not the two words interchangeable? What’s the difference between a man and a male human being? It appears as if you’re drawing a distinction without any substantive difference. Do you believe God was once a man who lived on a planet like this one?

The point I was making, or trying to make, was that we are the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, already.  Same kind, just not as perfect/complete as he is now.  I think one word can refer to the kind of being he is and we are now.

I noticed you asked if I believe God (our Father) was once a man who lived on a planet like this one.  I believe he still is a man and still lives on a planet like this one.  Same kind of planet, just more perfect/complete than this one.

You also asked what's the difference between a man and a male human being.  How about a man who is as perfect as our Father in heaven?  Still a man?  Yes, still a man, just more perfect than all of us other men on this planet.

Edited July 26, 2021 by bOObOO

[theplains]

On 7/26/2021 at 4:58 PM, Fether said:

I have never been a huge fan of using the Bible to prove our beliefs.

You may want to consider that the Book of Mormon does not teach some of your beliefs.

Edited August 2, 2021 by theplains

[theplains]

On 7/26/2021 at 2:41 PM, teddyaware said:

A member of the race of gods who is not fully mature can still be rightly called a god, in the same way a human man child is rightly considered a member of the race of man by birthright.

Do you believe God created angels who are not members of the race of gods?

[teddyaware]

47 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe God created angels who are not members of the race of 

No. All the spirit children of God have the God-given potential to become as he is. But there will be many of God’s spirit children in the eternities who will be relegated to the status of angels and will not become gods, because they did not fully overcome the world through faith in Christ and obtain the right to be crowned and enthroned on the very throne of Christ.

16 Therefore, when they (God’s spirit children who do not fully overcome the world) are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D&C 132).

Meanwhile, there will be those others who are now called angels (such as the angel Moroni) who will obtain that promised “far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory” and eventually be crowned and enthroned as gods. In other words, for some the status of being classified as an angel is temporary.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

You may want to consider that the Book of Mormon does not teach some of your beliefs.

Of course not.  It's from an earlier dispensation, from a society that for most of its span didn't even have the higher laws of the gospel and were under Mosaic law.
Finding certain doctrines from our dispensation in the Book of Mormon would be far more anachronistic.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Do you believe God created angels who are not members of the race of gods?

No. 
D&C 130:5
    But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

[OGHoosier]

On 8/2/2021 at 9:54 AM, JLHPROF said:

No. 
D&C 130:5
    But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

That doesn't mean that all the angels which God has created minister to this earth. Therefore D&C 130:5 doesn't have bearing on all angels. 

On 8/2/2021 at 9:31 AM, teddyaware said:

No. All the spirit children of God have the God-given potential to become as he is. But there will be many of God’s spirit children in the eternities who will be relegated to the status of angels and will not become gods, because they did not fully overcome the world through faith in Christ and obtain the right to be crowned and enthroned on the very throne of Christ.

I think this response misses the point of @theplains's question. He didn't ask whether all of God's spirit children have the potential to become like Him, he asked whether or not there are angels that are not of the race of Gods - in other words, angels which are not God's spirit children. Depends on your definition of angel. If you define "angel" as "one of God's spirit children made in His image", then obviously not. However, if you define angel as "an intelligent spirit/resurrected being in the service of God", then I see no scriptural reason why not. Under such circumstances the four beasts of Revelation could be considered angels. 

I should state that I see no reason why God could not create intelligent spirits that were not His spirit children. 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by OGHoosier

[echelon]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:20 AM, theplains said:

Do you believe God created angels who are not members of the race of gods?

I don't think race is the right word to describe those who have potential to be gods.  If a god can be appointed an angel and vice versa, it seems to me that godhood is a title bestowed by God the father giving you all the privilege's that come with that title. (like a feudal system among gods)

This verse, also from section 132, may be an oversimplification but effectively sums up what it takes to be a god.  Speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

"and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods." v37

That's it...perfect obedience = exaltation = godhood.

The not so simple part is, that it is in the commandments we are given and must obey that test and mold us according to God's desire into someone who is worthy and capable of living as a 'god'.

[bOObOO]

16 hours ago, echelon said:

I don't think race is the right word to describe those who have potential to be gods.  If a god can be appointed an angel and vice versa, it seems to me that godhood is a title bestowed by God the father giving you all the privilege's that come with that title. (like a feudal system among gods)

This verse, also from section 132, may be an oversimplification but effectively sums up what it takes to be a god.  Speaking of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

"and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods." v37

That's it...perfect obedience = exaltation = godhood.

Great point!  I knew that already but I appreciated (and still appreciate) the words you chose to say it that way.

16 hours ago, echelon said:

The not so simple part is, that it is in the commandments we are given and must obey that test and mold us according to God's desire into someone who is worthy and capable of living as a 'god'.

The part that makes the not so simple part simple though is how easy it is to repent when we recognize we did something wrong.  Who wants to continue to do something bad when they know better?  Not me, and not most people, I think.  Most want to do what is right as far as they know and understand what being right means.  Even if it takes us some time to overcome what we did in the past which was wrong.