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A science-based reason to avoid caffeine habituation


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5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Cognitive bias comes for us all. We should all try and increase our skepticism of things we see that confirm our beliefs. That’s hard though. And antithetical to maintaining faith (doubt your doubts and all that). 

Ok sure.  But what a thread. Agonizing about drinking coffee or tea.  What a horrible way to live.  I am happy to be free of it.

Please provide some substance in your posting. Negativity gets old fast. 

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17 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Agonizing about drinking coffee or tea.  What a horrible way to live.  I am happy to be free of it.

I have never even considered drinking coffee or tea. God said X and I said “cool, no problem!”

Im sorry it was so difficult for you to say no to coffee and tea :(. But don’t make the assumption this is every members plight.

Edited by Fether
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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Caffeine is a blessing. Don't think one item that Scott posted to confirm his bias is the end all.

I drink lots of Diet Dr. Pepper but wish I could kick the habit because of what's in the soda, not the caffeine really. But I do envy people that can be alert and have energy w/o the caffeine, just haven't been able to achieve it for most of my life. First Tab with my mom every Saturday morning to clean the house, haha. Then throughout my life it was many versions of Tab....but in actuality I guess everyone has their vice, sugar or lots of carbs. Everyone is different.

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21 hours ago, JAHS said:

 Elder Mark E. Peterson once said:
"At no time has cocoa or chocolate been included in the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom, and at no time has the Church said that cocoa is as harmful as coffee. Those who make these claims do so on their own responsibility, and obviously without knowing the facts of the matter" (Elder Mark E. Peterson, Patterns for Living [Bookcraft, 1962], pp. 235-37).

Dang. If someone is more orthodox on something than Peterson, you know they're way out there.

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On 7/16/2021 at 9:48 AM, california boy said:

I don’t know who these guys are that wrote this article, but Johns Hopkins strongly disagree with their conclusions

What are the top health benefits of drinking coffee?
  • You could live longer. ... 
  • Your body may process glucose (or sugar) better. ... 
  • You're less likely to develop heart failure. ... 
  • You are less likely to develop Parkinson's disease. ... 
  • Your liver will thank you. ... 
  • Your DNA will be stronger.
 
Both coffee and tea have significant health benefits.  If the reason you aren’t drinking coffee or tea is for health reasons you are seriously misguided 

 

I must be getting slow in my old age, but I read the article thinking about some close friends I have who admit they drink way too much soda and energy drinks, but fail every time they cut back. Mentally, I didn't even connect the article to the WoW and tea and coffee.

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11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it commendable that you gave up caffeine, and I’m glad you attained health benefits thereby. 
 

That said, I wonder why you felt the need to pray about it beforehand. What are the upsides, if any, to caffeine consumption (or that of any habit-forming stimulant) that would make you ambivalent about the decision to the point of needing to seek divine approval? 
 

 

I'm a type 1 diabetic.  Rarely, even in Utah, can I go somewhere, except grocery stores, and find diet soda with no caffeine. 

There are a lot of things I do that are not perfectly healthy.  I would guess few people do everything healthy.

I wanted to see if this is an area that God wanted me to focus on.  He knows me and knows I can't do it all perfectly.  He said yes on quitting caffeine.  

Now I'm focusing on a different area.  The timing is right for it, just like the timing was right for stopping caffeine years ago.

Edited by Rain
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When I became a member 30 years ago, my friend (also a member), said it wasn’t the caffeine that was the problem but it was the tannins. Sounded as good as any explanation to me. I gave up caffeinated soft drinks many years ago, not because of the church, but because of rebound headaches. If I got a headache I would drink a coke to get rid of it, not realizing that it was caffeine “withdrawals” causing it. When I quit I had a horrible headache for a couple of days, but then I felt better and stopped getting the afternoon headache every day. 

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Since we are giving testimonials here, I love my caffeine. Coffee drinking picked up in earnest 2.5 years ago when baby 5 came along. She was and is a horrible night time sleeper. And now baby 6 (and done!) is here. Oh my. Being able to supplement with extra caffeine on the really bad nights is really nice. Plus it tastes great. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, there is no substitute for a good nights sleep, but caffeine definitely helps for those of us that can’t get it. Wish I had it years ago when I had to work month long night shift turnarounds. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Since we are giving testimonials here, I love my caffeine. Coffee drinking picked up in earnest 2.5 years ago when baby 5 came along. She was and is a horrible night time sleeper. And now baby 6 (and done!) is here. Oh my. Being able to supplement with extra caffeine on the really bad nights is really nice. Plus it tastes great. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, there is no substitute for a good nights sleep, but caffeine definitely helps for those of us that can’t get it. Wish I had it years ago when I had to work month long night shift turnarounds. 

There are much worse things one can use as a stimulant, imho, and babies will drive you to drink, lol. 

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2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Don’t get me wrong, there is no substitute for a good nights sleep, but caffeine definitely helps for those of us that can’t get it. Wish I had it years ago when I had to work month long night shift turnarounds. 

Just make sure it remains the exception rather than the standard and it makes sense to use it, imo. When it becomes a need in and of itself rather than a solution to a need (such as staying up with baby or staying awake the day after staying up with baby)…that is when people need to step away from it, imo. 
 

Unnecessary sleep disorders is something people should avoid with as much effort as possible as too easy to slip into damaging oneself as one gets older (and that poor quality of sleep starts putting the pounds on, back injuries happen more often and take longer to heal, quality of work suffers, mood changes, etc). 
 

I was just read a confession (his word) of a retired LEO who was ashamed and depressed by the quality of work he did the past several years as his sleep disorder (and some back issues…likely a bigger problem because of the crap sleep) made him less capable of dealing with stress and less able to put solid energy into doing his job, including being better with people, more respectful in paying attention, etc).  He retired early because he couldn’t give the job what it needed. 

Edited by Calm
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41 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

It's mentioned as to those weakest among us. Which to me just means those with the greatest vulnerabilities at any given time. Because the truth is is no one knows when they will fit in the category of "weak" or "weakest of all." To me, at least, that's what the Wow initially points to....communal reasons and the security/growth of the whole as the main driver for giving it.  

 

Very well observed and stated. 

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10 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ok sure.  But what a thread. Agonizing about drinking coffee or tea.  What a horrible way to live.  I am happy to be free of it.

Please provide some substance in your posting. Negativity gets old fast. 

 

10 hours ago, Fether said:

I have never even considered drinking coffee or tea. God said X and I said “cool, no problem!”

Im sorry it was so difficult for you to say no to coffee and tea :(. But don’t make the assumption this is every members plight.

Same here. 
 

“Agonizing about drinking coffee or tea” is as foreign to me as agonizing over whether to have my nose pierced and fitted with a brass ring. I’m every bit as free of it (the agonizing) as Teancum professes to be. 

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9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

For the record, I drink caffeine. Specifically a drink/herbal tea called mate cocido mix with cocao powder served maybe with some sort of milk (usually almond). I drink it for only two reasons. Migraine management and a few times when I really really need a pick me up. I know with migraines caffeine can become a double edged sword, so I only have it when it's apparent I'm getting a migraine or at risk to. As a general rule I'm fairly averse to just about anything that can become an unnecessary or addictive habit. I couldn't fully tell you why. 

 

This said I do find problems in the underlying assumptions these discussions some times have around the WOW. Namely..

1.) the focus on individual health/benefits (or lack)

 2.) The use of science to bolster or deconstruct the WOW

 On the first i think it's a bit reductionist to the purpose of the WOW. It isn't simply about individual benefit, but community concerns. It's not necessarily for everyone equally, but somewhat like herd immunity for the larger community by reducing the concerns for the "weak and weakest of all saints."  it was also for concerns about "conspiring men" and their "designs" in the last day.Which means on the individual level any side can be right about the argument. Individual benefits aren't really mentioned as the the main purpose but rather part of many types of blessing one can receive by following it. Yes, in one way or another following the WOW will likely benefit most anyone who follows it, health wise. And yes most people can also be fairly healthy and happy with moderation of many of the 'no' items attributed to the WOW (namely coffee, tea, wine/beer as the major ones usually mentioned). It doesn't mean the WoW is right or wrong because I personally benefit for living it and another is personally benefiting from not. We as a society are most comfortable thinking about what's good for most is good enough or what's good for me is right. God's way (at least the version ascribed in the LDS scriptures) is far more communal and focused on all coming together in one, being seen, and cared for by the whole under God. For each person to have the capacity to grow in a divine manner. To do so can be hindered by temporal matters. Not for every body at all times or equally applicable on all points. It's mentioned as to those weakest among us. Which to me just means those with the greatest vulnerabilities at any given time. Because the truth is is no one knows when they will fit in the category of "weak" or "weakest of all." To me, at least, that's what the Wow initially points to....communal reasons and the security/growth of the whole as the main driver for giving it.  

My point on 1 probably already indicates why 2 also doesn't make sense. Because this is showing not just the health constructs of a specific food, drink, or substance... but the social contexts in which they take place. That's far harder to simply prove or disprove.   

 

So interesting....caffeine can be ineffective. It hasn't for me most the time I've had it to some degree. But it doesn't really speak one way or another for the WoW as a whole. 

 

With luv,

BD

These are good meta-points, especially about the issues of community and overall health. I do think that coffee and tea are very good modes of community bonding and ritual. In some cultures they are indeed intrinsic. And can be integrated well as health benefits.

Edited by Meadowchik
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14 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm a type 1 diabetic.  Rarely, even in Utah, can I go somewhere, except grocery stores, and find diet soda with no caffeine. 

There are a lot of things I do that are not perfectly healthy.  I would guess few people do everything healthy.

I wanted to see if this is an area that God wanted me to focus on.  He knows me and knows I can't do it all perfectly.  He said yes on quitting caffeine.  

Now I'm focusing on a different area.  The timing is right for it, just like the timing was right for stopping caffeine years ago.

I think I may be addicted to the aspartame in diet drinks as well, I tried going off diet and drinking regular Dr. Pepper and felt like I needed the diet. 

ADDED: Just googled and I guess aspartame is addictive! https://www.healthieruny.com/aspartame-withdrawal#:~:text=Aspartame and other artificial sweeteners,affects dopamine in the brain.

Edited by Tacenda
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8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

These are good meta-ponits, especially about the issues of community and overall health. I do think that coffee and tea are very good modes of community bonding and ritual. In some cultures they are indeed intrinsic. And can be integrated well as health benefits.

I have a few scatter shot thoughts tied to is. 
 

First, I think it’s important to remember that the WOW is specifically meant for the modern era. Don’t get me wrong I think parts of it are universally fairly applicable. I’d be hard pressed to find an era when tobacco was generally good for ingestion or smoking, for example. But I think some of the point you bring up will also be tied to the context it’s been given. 

In places like China, tea has been a solid cultural phenomenon for millennia. That is true. So has alcohol in so many cultures. But the practices in other communities of major tea drinkers (ex. Britain) are a comparatively recent practice of bonding. And how they’ve grown and changed as an industry has rapidly altered as well. this doesn’t take away the fact that they are/were forms of community bonding/ritual. It just fits that assertions of goodness for some may not outweigh the cost for others. Particularly to a divine and all loving God who values each child. And some of these costs are because of “conspiring men” less concerned about ritual and connect but maximum profits at all costs. Tea during JS’ time is an excellent example. Yes, it became highly popular in the UK insomuch that it became integrated into cultural norms. But this phenomenon caused monetary destabilization and conflicts, fostered global exploitation of certain populations to meet demands for not only tea but sugar, and inevitably facilitated the opium epidemic in China. Even with just focusing on the social aspect, this would still fit what I meant by a source of social bonding that doesn’t necessarily take in the concerns of all in its implementation. 
 

note, there are still things that are commonly enjoyed in LDS circles that don’t fit the WOW and may fit in the similar concern from a straight read and focus on communal health (both physically and socially). Chocolate and sugar come to mind. Excessive meat and ultra processed food consumption would be another. Several of these also have developed culture and ritual around them. It doesn’t necessarily justify the social, environmental, and health costs on others. (Also noting here that I definitely still eat chocolate, for example, even though I think there’s serious problems with the industry, moral injustice in access, and environmental concerns tied to excessive scope and use) 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited by BlueDreams
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On 7/17/2021 at 2:26 PM, Fether said:

I have never even considered drinking coffee or tea. God said X and I said “cool, no problem!”

Im sorry it was so difficult for you to say no to coffee and tea :(. But don’t make the assumption this is every members plight.

I see my point went right over your head. I never agonized over either of these. I don't drink coffee now.  I do like tea. So don't assume dude.

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Talking about the inherent evils of consuming some substances seems to me to ignore that the Word of Wisdom is a temporary law fit for our day specifically due to current conditions and I have a suspicion that its primary purpose is less about avoiding some stuff and more about being a differentiating factor as an aid to missionary work.

The article also endorses the best way to use caffeine. In an emergency or tight spot where you desperately need to be focused and alert. If you don't ingest it regularly you get the benefit without making it habitual.

Alcohol and "hot drinks" have also outlived one of their primary purposes for a lot of the world. Fermentation made for a safer drink than water and boiling it to make coffee and tea was even safer. With much of the world having access to reasonably safe drinking water it is less of a health benefit. Will the Word of Wisdom be rescinded once the Water Wars start? Stay tuned.....

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I see my point went right over your head. I never agonized over either of these. I don't drink coffee now.  I do like tea. So don't assume dude.

Don’t assume? You said “Agonizing about drinking coffee or tea.  What a horrible way to live.  I am happy to be free of it.”

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2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Don’t assume? You said “Agonizing about drinking coffee or tea.  What a horrible way to live.  I am happy to be free of it.”

Yes you seem to not understand. It is the true believer who cannot figure out what to drink or not. Hot chocolate? Coke or Pepsi? Energy drinks?  Understand?  By the way coffee and tea are actually quite healthy for you.  

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Another example of an article about science that provides no scientific evidence…trying to be used to make someone feel good about their life decisions….maybe the next article will be about how applying tobacco to wounds in milk cows will cause a higher yield of milk production… (added extra snark for entertainment purposes:)

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3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Another example of an article about science that provides no scientific evidence…trying to be used to make someone feel good about their life decisions….maybe the next article will be about how applying tobacco to wounds in milk cows will cause a higher yield of milk production… (added extra snark for entertainment purposes:)

When I was a kid I thought if you fed cows Hershey bars they would give chocolate milk. 😊

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Quote

By the way coffee and tea are actually quite healthy for you.  


 

Not for me.  They would both be highly detrimental for me and for the vast majority of my paternal relatives (as most seem to have the same genetic disorder to varying degrees). 

Last time I did research on this aspect, it was rated the number one movement disorder in the US.  About 10% have it, but 2% were moderate to severe. Given it is degenerative, being careless about it when younger can lead to it being severe when older. I am convinced I would be moderate at most at this time in my life looking at all my siblings and my dad’s trajectory if I hadn’t used medications that augmented the disorder…all recommended by doctors and many I was given no other option to help, but in the end they made things worse.  I can only imagine how much worse off I would be if I had ever used caffeine on a regular basis…as has been recommended by some back in the day before the disorder became more than an obscure note in some medical histories (it was  identified in the 1600’s iirc, but no one paid much attention until the 1990’s for the most part, I was still introducing my doctors to the latest research in the early 2000’s).

I wonder how many of the 2% are at that point because they did use caffeine frequently over their lifetime. 

——

You are assuming that devout members agonize over choosing what to drink. Perhaps some do, but I suspect most early on in their lives as members have taken a bit of time, decided what they will and will not drink and then think little about it as they get older.   In discussions about how they address WoW choices, very few have sounded agonized in speaking about how they made choices. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:


 

Not for me.  They would both be highly detrimental for me and for the vast majority of my paternal relatives (as most seem to have the same genetic disorder to varying degrees). 

Last time I did research on this aspect, it was rated the number one movement disorder in the US.  About 10% have it, but 2% were moderate to severe. Given it is degenerative, being careless about it when younger can lead to it being severe when older. I am convinced I would be moderate at most at this time in my life looking at all my siblings and my dad’s trajectory if I hadn’t used medications that augmented the disorder…all recommended by doctors and many I was given no other option to help, but in the end they made things worse.  I can only imagine how much worse off I would be if I had ever used caffeine on a regular basis…as has been recommended by some back in the day before the disorder became more than an obscure note in some medical histories (it was  identified in the 1600’s iirc, but no one paid much attention until the 1990’s for the most part, I was still introducing my doctors to the latest research in the early 2000’s).

I wonder how many of the 2% are at that point because they did use caffeine frequently over their lifetime. 

——

You are assuming that devout members agonize over choosing what to drink. Perhaps some do, but I suspect most early on in their lives as members have taken a bit of time, decided what they will and will not drink and then think little about it as they get older.   In discussions about how they address WoW choices, very few have sounded agonized in speaking about how they made choices. 

Don't jump to conclusions. Many members wake up every morning and struggle with whether they should go on a mass murder spree. At least I assume they do. I'm not the only one....right guys? RIGHT?!?!?!?!!?

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53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Don't jump to conclusions. Many members wake up every morning and struggle with whether they should go on a mass murder spree. At least I assume they do. I'm not the only one....right guys? RIGHT?!?!?!?!!?

“It is always projection

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