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A science-based reason to avoid caffeine habituation


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3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Briefly stated, I think that’s nonsense. There are no indispensable benefits to either. 
 

Your arguments remind me of the rationalization that wine drinking is healthy because wine is an antioxidant. Grape juice is also an an antioxidant, with none of the ill effects from wine drinking. 

Just to be clear, they are not my arguments, they are Johns Hopkins researchers data and studies 

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47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.  There is something disingenuous about limiting it to tea and coffee.  And something plain wrong about making caffeine the reason.

I agree about the caffeine thing, but are you calling Hyrum Smith disingenuous? It was he who said that coffee and tea is what is meant.

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Just now, Stargazer said:

I agree about the caffeine thing, but are you calling Hyrum Smith disingenuous? It was he who said that coffee and tea is what is meant.

No I'm calling us limiting it to tea and coffee disingenuous.  In Hyrum's day that's basically all they had.  We have cocoa, postum, Horlicks, green tea, pero/caro, chai...etc.

Hyrum named the hot drinks of his day.  We haven't done the same.

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One does wonder how much influence Sylvester Graham (the father of the Graham Cracker - which was nothing like today's Graham Cracker) had on the word of wisdom:

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Born in West Suffield, Connecticut, in 1794, this future evangelical preacher briefly attended Amherst College before becoming ordained in 1826. After lecturing for a short time around New England, Graham suffered a long illness that led to the health regime for which he is known today, one full of progressive ideas. This included consuming whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables, and abstaining from stimulants such as coffee and tea. A strong believer in the temperance movement, Graham also condemned the use of alcohol and tobacco. Though these opinions were not so unusual, even in the 1820s, it was his support for vegetarianism and criticism of refined flour that drew the most attention.

https://connecticuthistory.org/sylvester-graham-progressive-advocate-for-healthy-living/

It wasn't just the stimulating effect of coffee and tea that Graham was against however, his followers also abstained from all hot beverages, including plain ol' hot water.  It all had to be cold. 

It seems that the word of wisdom is a more moderate version of the Graham diet.  Graham insisted on complete abstinence of all meat, etc. while the word of wisdom allowed for a more moderate approach and "not by way of command".  

Edited by pogi
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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

the 19th century interpretation was coffee/tea (all that really existed at the time in the absence of the other options above)

Which may mean the reason was some behaviour attached to the hot drinks rather than the drinks themselves even…do we take the instruction in the context of the lives of those who first received it or assume context doesn’t matter and it is applicable across the board…and if so, how picky do we get?  If it is the temperature, then maybe we should be avoiding all hot food, after all. 
 

As soon as we start making assumptions about the why, we may expand it beyond what it was meant to cover or shrink it so it doesn’t cover all that was intended. 
 

My approach is to be obedient to the policy to the best of my ability for the sake of my covenant to sustain leaders, but look to science and experience to figure out what is healthy.  There are benefits I get from living my covenant and benefits on learning how to live healthy.
 

Sometimes they overlap.  For example, alcohol is definitely not something I should be using recreationally, neither is cannabis, or any other drug I have used, my body hits ‘toxic’ levels very quickly where side effects outweigh benefits (I get massive headaches before I get a decent high, a high while in pain or vomiting…yeah, not worth it).  I know a sibling had turned to alcohol for a time as a way to cope with some of the issues of our genetic disorder and that didn’t turn out well for so many reasons, so I believe the WoW has been a great blessing for me medically even in the limited way it has been taught. I am very grateful that I didn’t go that route as I likely would have if not for the WoW, same with caffeine which my body really overreacts to (I can’t sleep even with sleep drugs for 20 hours after any caffeine).  

Sometimes they appear to contradict (health benefits claimed for coffee or alcohol)…but research generally provides other options that can provide the same benefits with less costs, so I have never found myself missing out on health because of my covenant. 

Edited by Calm
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30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No I'm calling us limiting it to tea and coffee disingenuous.  In Hyrum's day that's basically all they had.  We have cocoa, postum, Horlicks, green tea, pero/caro, chai...etc.

Hyrum named the hot drinks of his day.  We haven't done the same.

Ah, I see. You're thinking that it needs to be updated for current conditions. But chai and green tea are the same plant as standard black tea. Why should we need to name them? Everyone knows that coffee is the base of latte and all the rest, so is there really a need for naming them all?  It would begin to sound like the Pharisees had won. And if we start listing all the forbidden drinks, well, we'd need Wikipedia to keep track of them all. And everytime some imaginative soul came up with a new drink version, we'd have to have the Mormon version of the American Kosher Council decide whether or not the drink would get the approved label. What symbol should be used? How about an "M" in a circle, or a beehive symbol? 

And it's clearly not the temperature that is the problem, or else we could drink iced tea and coffee, but clearly we can't. And then we'd have to let our tomato soup cool down before eating/drinking it. 

I've known members of the church who won't drink peppermint tea because the word "tea" is there, even though there's not a lick of tea in the drink (of course, some peppermint drinks do have black tea in the blend). Just because the word "tea" has become synonomous with dried plant matter steeped in hot water does not make all infusions ("dried plant matter steeped in hot water") against the WoW. If "dried plant matter steeped in hot water" were against the word of wisdom, then you wouldn't be allowed to put dried herbs and spices into water-based food items such as soups and stews, because they'd be tea!!!

Even worse is the fact that in the UK (and Ireland, too) the word "tea" can refer to a mealtime (usually not breakfast, but lunch and dinner have been called "tea" by those pesky Brits). So Britons might not be allowed to eat anything other than breakfast (and second breakfast for Hobbits).

Postum and Pero/Caro are made from grain, which are specifically approved in DC 89. Cocoa? Why would cocoa be a problem? It's not coffee or tea.  And if the problem is not temperature, and it's not caffeine what difference does it make that chocolate contains some caffeine? What about theobromine? Do we want to drag theobromine into the case? Please, let's not.

Hey, I have a very RADICAL IDEA! Why don't we just let Hyrum Smith have the last word on this? Hot drinks means coffee and tea. Call their derivatives and variations what you want, if they have coffee or tea in them, then the Word of Wisdom applies. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Ah, I see. You're thinking that it needs to be updated for current conditions. But chai and green tea are the same plant as standard black tea. Why should we need to name them? Everyone knows that coffee is the base of latte and all the rest, so is there really a need for naming them all?  It would begin to sound like the Pharisees had won. And if we start listing all the forbidden drinks, well, we'd need Wikipedia to keep track of them all. And everytime some imaginative soul came up with a new drink version, we'd have to have the Mormon version of the American Kosher Council decide whether or not the drink would get the approved label. What symbol should be used? How about an "M" in a circle, or a beehive symbol? 

And it's clearly not the temperature that is the problem, or else we could drink iced tea and coffee, but clearly we can't. And then we'd have to let our tomato soup cool down before eating/drinking it. 

I've known members of the church who won't drink peppermint tea because the word "tea" is there, even though there's not a lick of tea in the drink (of course, some peppermint drinks do have black tea in the blend). Just because the word "tea" has become synonomous with dried plant matter steeped in hot water does not make all infusions ("dried plant matter steeped in hot water") against the WoW. If "dried plant matter steeped in hot water" were against the word of wisdom, then you wouldn't be allowed to put dried herbs and spices into water-based food items such as soups and stews, because they'd be tea!!!

Even worse is the fact that in the UK (and Ireland, too) the word "tea" can refer to a mealtime (usually not breakfast, but lunch and dinner have been called "tea" by those pesky Brits). So Britons might not be allowed to eat anything other than breakfast (and second breakfast for Hobbits).

Postum and Pero/Caro are made from grain, which are specifically approved in DC 89. Cocoa? Why would cocoa be a problem? It's not coffee or tea.  And if the problem is not temperature, and it's not caffeine what difference does it make that chocolate contains some caffeine? What about theobromine? Do we want to drag theobromine into the case? Please, let's not.

Hey, I have a very RADICAL IDEA! Why don't we just let Hyrum Smith have the last word on this? Hot drinks means coffee and tea. Call their derivatives and variations what you want, if they have coffee or tea in them, then the Word of Wisdom applies. 

:nea:Nah.

I don't know if you're getting the point.  It's not about listing every permutation.

WHY did Hyrum specify tea and coffee as the meaning of hot drinks?  That's what they drank.  If they drank cocoa he'd have included it.  (And why is Hyrum the authority?)

So WHY do we not extend it to other hot drinks and instead mistakenly blame caffeine for decades?

Sorry but hot drinks doesn't exclusively refer to the tea plant and coffee because they happen to be the ones Hyrum Smith mentioned once.

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8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

:nea:Nah.

I don't know if you're getting the point.  It's not about listing every permutation.

WHY did Hyrum specify tea and coffee as the meaning of hot drinks?  That's what they drank.  If they drank cocoa he'd have included it.  (And why is Hyrum the authority?)

So WHY do we not extend it to other hot drinks and instead mistakenly blame caffeine for decades?

Sorry but hot drinks doesn't exclusively refer to the tea plant and coffee because they happen to be the ones Hyrum Smith mentioned once.

Was it Hyrum?. The version I have goes like this.  Joel H. Johnson, with whose family the Prophet Joseph Smith was intimate, relates that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

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5 hours ago, pogi said:

It only suggests that it is pointless in terms of using it habitually to stave off fatigue.  It is not suggesting that there are no other potential health benefits from it as cali-boy has pointed out. 

Benefits that are available from other sources that don’t carry a habit-forming stimulant, as T-shirt has pointed out. 

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52 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So WHY do we not extend it to other hot drinks…

Because we don’t know why Hyrum identified tea and coffee and not hot chocolate or soups, etc as “hot drinks”, both available at that time. 
 

https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-americas/history-of-chocolate

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Chocolate arrived in Florida on a Spanish ship in 1641. It’s thought the first American chocolate house opened in Boston in 1682. By 1773, cocoa beans were a major American colony import and chocolate was enjoyed by people of all classes

From wiki:

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Hot chocolate was first brought to North America as early as the 17th century by the Dutch, but the first time colonists began selling hot chocolate was around 1755. Traditionally, hot chocolate has been associated with cold weather and winter in the United States and Canada.

Chocolate (drink as solid chocolate had to wait until 1828 when cocoa powder was invented) was apparently available before coffee was to colonists:

https://americanhistory.si.edu/blog/2012/12/george-washington-drank-hot-chocolate.html

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This changes everything. George Washington could afford chocolate, but so could the fur traders out on the frontier. What else was everyone drinking? Were all colonial beverages so readily available? The Enterprise team and I came up with a list of six beverages readily available to the colonists: chocolate, tea, cider, water, milk, and whiskey.

Barley water or other grain drinks, made by boiling grains and then straining the water, could have been drink hot or cold (important thing in our modern POV was the water was boiled).

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chocolate was a popular drink for all ages. The beverage was simple to prepare for the imported cocoa beans were merely ground and then brewed for the desired thickness with water or milk. As Americans moved further into the eighteenth century, chocolate and coffeehouses became popular in seaport towns such as Boston, New York, and Phildelphia...The taste of coffees, teas, and chocolates was unpredictable at best. Today's beverages are a smooth blend of leaves or beans of many types. However, in colonial times, a ship's cargo usually included not a mixture of several strong and mild beans, but only the products of a single plantation. Past experiences with the crop of a particular producer were of little value in judging later shipments, for changing climatic and soil conditions altered the tastes of a particular grower's crop from year to year...When coffee was not available or was beyond the means of the poor farmer, parched rye, chestnuts, or grape seeds were substituted for coffee beans and brewed into hot drinks...Tea substitutes were also popular, particularly on the frontier where imported merchandise was difficult to purchase. Sassafras tea was considered particularly pleasing..." ---Hung, Strung & Potted: A History of Eating in Colonial America, Sally Smith Booth [Clarkson Potter:New York] 1971 (p. 199-202)

What did patriots drink instead of tea after the famous Boston party?
"Colonial tea addicts were sorely tested when the nationwide tea strike began about ten years before the Revolutionary War. Supporters of the boycott against British tea published numerous testimonials by patriotic doctors who claimed that tea-drinking not only shortened the life of a drinker, but weaked his spleen and stomach...High prices as well as patriotism discouraged many from drinking tea...Rhubarb, goldenrod, strawberry, and blackberry leaves were also collected for brewing into tea during the long show of solidarity against the British. The later revolution saw a great decreas in the amount of American tea-drinking, and in the first years of the new republic, coffee became the overwhelming favorite drink. Though never to regain its prewar popualrity as a general beverage, tea remained popular as a medicinal home remedy for various illnesses, a turnabout from the boycott claims to the opposite effect."
---ibid (p. 202)

"The young ladies of Boston signed a pledge, 'We the daughters of those patriots who have, and do now appear for the public interest, and in that principally regard their posterity, as do with pleasure engage with them in denying ourselves the drinking of foreign tea, in hope to frustrate a plan that tends to deprive a whole community of all that is valuable to life.' They were joined by others around the country, drinking instead 'Balsamic hyperion' made from dried raspberry leaves, or infusions of other herbs. The Boston Tea Party did not destroy the American taste for tea, although few retailers in Boston dared to offer it for sale for a number of years. George and Martha Washington continued to serve the best quality tea"
---A Social History of Tea, Jane Pettigrew [National Trust Enterprises:London] 2001 (p. 48-51)

https://www.foodtimeline.org/foodbeverages.html
 

Hot broths would have been pretty common too, especially for the sick. Look up beef tea. 

Edited by Calm
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17 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Was it Hyrum?. The version I have goes like this.  Joel H. Johnson, with whose family the Prophet Joseph Smith was intimate, relates that on a Sabbath day in July (1833) following the giving of the "Word of Wisdom," when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints: "I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

That makes sense.  As those were the hot drinks of the day.

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32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That makes sense.  As those were the hot drinks of the day.

So was chocolate. And there must have been other hot drinks that were being used as excuses for the WoW not applying to tea and coffee, so that Hyrum had to identify tea and coffee as what the WoW was talking about…yet Hyrum did not say these other drinks were included as well. 
 

Anyone know if there is documentation of the excuses people were making that led to Hyrum or Joseph making that clarification?

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:
20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That makes sense.  As those were the hot drinks of the day.

So was chocolate. 

 Elder Mark E. Peterson once said:
"At no time has cocoa or chocolate been included in the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom, and at no time has the Church said that cocoa is as harmful as coffee. Those who make these claims do so on their own responsibility, and obviously without knowing the facts of the matter" (Elder Mark E. Peterson, Patterns for Living [Bookcraft, 1962], pp. 235-37).

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9 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 Elder Mark E. Peterson once said:
"At no time has cocoa or chocolate been included in the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom, and at no time has the Church said that cocoa is as harmful as coffee. Those who make these claims do so on their own responsibility, and obviously without knowing the facts of the matter" (Elder Mark E. Peterson, Patterns for Living [Bookcraft, 1962], pp. 235-37).

Exactly. So it would appear that it was one of the three popular hot drinks at the time and yet was not included…ever.  Nor was there any council to cool off hot soups and grain or herb drinks. Can’t be just temperature that matters then, it seems to me.  

Edited by Calm
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43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

:nea:Nah.

I don't know if you're getting the point.  It's not about listing every permutation.

Not sure what your point is then, actually. You seemed to be edging towards listing permutations as they occurred. You wrote:

"Hyrum named the hot drinks of his day.  We haven't done the same."

The same? Naming the hot drinks of his day? Sounds like making a list. Perhaps checking it twice.

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

WHY did Hyrum specify tea and coffee as the meaning of hot drinks?  That's what they drank.  If they drank cocoa he'd have included it.  (And why is Hyrum the authority?)

I think the Prophet's brother is well-positioned to understand what Joseph understood, and he was in a good position to know what the Lord meant. It's not his "authority". It's his knowledge.

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So WHY do we not extend it to other hot drinks and instead mistakenly blame caffeine for decades?

Because the Lord meant those drinks that were commonly drunk hot to fall under the aegis of the WoW? Not because of their temperature, clearly, because then it'd be OK to drink them iced, right? We'd have problems with soups, too. Your chicken soup for the soul will then keep you out of the temple. And what if there were hot drinks not drunk at the time among the early Saints? Did the Lord want to include those, too? Yerba Mate? 

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Sorry but hot drinks doesn't exclusively refer to the tea plant and coffee because they happen to be the ones Hyrum Smith mentioned once.

And why not? Do you really want to start listing various hot drinks and give them a Yea or Nay, depending upon something?

How complicated do you want to get?

Does hot drinks refer to hot water, neat? I see no reason to drink plain hot water, but if it's cold outside, then a nice warming drink of hot water would be great, right? Except that it's a "hot drink"!!! 

I think that it is very wise to say that "hot drinks" refers to coffee and tea, and leave off getting technical about it.

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3 hours ago, pogi said:

One does wonder how much influence Sylvester Graham (the father of the Graham Cracker - which was nothing like today's Graham Cracker) had on the word of wisdom:

It wasn't just the stimulating effect of coffee and tea that Graham was against however, his followers also abstained from all hot beverages, including plain ol' hot water.  It all had to be cold. 

It seems that the word of wisdom is a more moderate version of the Graham diet.  Graham insisted on complete abstinence of all meat, etc. while the word of wisdom allowed for a more moderate approach and "not by way of command".  

Which makes it strange if it was temperature that matter, why weren’t they as extreme as Graham?  Or at least include the other common hot drink, chocolate?

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

If they drank cocoa he'd have included it.

Evidence is they did drink it…at least hot chocolate from cocoa beans, not cocoa as we think of it as that comes from cocoa powder invented in 1828…need to check when it became common in states. 
 

So was it an oversight not to include it or maybe chocolate was even the hot drink people were using to excuse drinking tea and coffee….or was it specifically tea and coffee meant not to drink and Joseph had written “hot drinks” thinking of what they had in common for easy identification when it was really coffee and tea God meant people to abstain from, Hyrum giving the correction Joseph had likely told him (since Joseph was apparently on the stand when Hyrum spoke or spoke it himself even…but whichever, Joseph was there to correct if an incomplete clarification had been given).

Edited by Calm
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16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I see no reason to drink plain hot water

I learned by watching Asian TV shows not uncommon for them to drink hot water. I tried it one time I needed comfort but didn’t want sugar (don’t like herbal teas except ones that appear to be diuretic for me, :unknw:) and it was surprisingly appealing.  I prefer it with eating nowadays in fact. My stomach at times rebels against cold water. Drink hot water more than I drink cold water (we have a water dispenser that offers both) now. 

Edited by Calm
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When it comes to the hobby-horse pursuit of exactitude in connection with the Word of Wisdom, and the effort to find new things to forbid in search of some kind of perfection, I am reminded of the following, from an article by Elder Quentin Cook of the Seventy, Looking beyond the Mark:

"This Athenian response to Paul [in Paul's preaching to the Athenians about resurrection] was not unlike that of the people described by the prophet Jacob during an even earlier period: 'But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble' (Jacob 4:14; emphasis added).

"Today there is a tendency among some of us to “look beyond the mark” rather than to maintain a testimony of gospel basics. We do this when we substitute the philosophies of men for gospel truths, engage in gospel extremism, seek heroic gestures at the expense of daily consecration, or elevate rules over doctrine. Avoiding these behaviors will help us avoid the theological blindness and stumbling that Jacob described." [emphasis added]

Elder Cook specifically addresses that which is under discussion in this thread when he continues:

"Certain members have wanted to add substantially to various doctrines. An example might be when one advocates additions to the Word of Wisdom that are not authorized by the Brethren and proselytes others to adopt these interpretations. If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.

"Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the 'meat' the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the 'milk.' Others want to counsel the Brethren and are critical of all teachings that do not comply with their version of what should be taught."

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I learned by watching Asian TV shows not uncommon for them to drink hot water. I tried it one time I needed comfort but didn’t want sugar (don’t like herbal teas except ones that appear to be diuretic for me, :unknw:) and it was surprisingly appealing.  I prefer it with eating nowadays in fact. My stomach at times rebels against cold water. Drink hot water more than I drink cold water (we have a water dispenser that offers both) now. 

Well, you better cut it out. It's apparently against the Word of Wisdom.

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Found a reference where chocolate and coffee beans were being sold for the same 13¢ a pound in Nauvoo in 1842.  And given its popularity elsewhere, I think it is safe to assume it was a very popular drink in Nauvoo as well  

https://tinyurl.com/Chocolate-in-Nauvoo

So if as popular a hot drink as tea and coffee, why wasn’t it included if all hot drinks meant?  Why wasn’t the clarification ‘when I said hot drinks, I meant hot drinks, which includes coffee and tea’ rather than saying “tea and coffee was what was meant”…not “part of what was meant”.

Joseph was apparently there and likely spoke (which would explain why Brother Johnson got mixed up), so could have corrected…added more info…given there seemed to be a big deal that people were making false assumptions. 

Edited by Calm
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22 minutes ago, Calm said:

I learned by watching Asian TV shows not uncommon for them to drink hot water. I tried it one time I needed comfort but didn’t want sugar (don’t like herbal teas except ones that appear to be diuretic for me, :unknw:) and it was surprisingly appealing.  I prefer it with eating nowadays in fact. My stomach at times rebels against cold water. Drink hot water more than I drink cold water (we have a water dispenser that offers both) now. 

 

16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, you better cut it out. It's apparently against the Word of Wisdom.

During hot Japanese summers hot green tea is still served, you hydrate faster.  Assuming both of you are not green tea drinkers, I grew up on it and still drink a lot of it.  It's one of the healthiest things out there.  Closer something is to your body temp closer it gets absorbed into your body.  Older cousins are all retired but when they were still in the military they'd train with the Japanese military quite a bit, i've seen them in Oahu.  It can be hot, humid and just plain miserable but they'll still drink hot tea.  Whenever mom and I have Japanese food (and pretty much anything else) hot tea is usually on the table.  Granted we do ice it in the summer sometimes but still we drink our hot tea.  Combination of culture and science has kept many of that side of the family healthy as well as given them long lives, when I think of how they are now compared to what i've seen here I drink my tea with pride, elders know best.

I know the LDS faith has it's rules and dogma via things such as the word of wisdom, just thought I'd share something from my world.  

BTW, sugar in tea is a nono.  I had tea with Brits once and had tea without sugar.  I had no idea they added stuff to it.  Minute I added tea and cream I got this nod of approval.  To this day I can't stand earl grey tea, if you need to dump stuff in it to make it drinkable it sucks.  I'm funny that way, I'll add almond milk to coffee but tea?  Ohh no if i'm not at someones house it's green tea in it's natural state or nothing.  I still have that image of mom telling 7 year old me we don't add anything to our tea.

Edited by poptart
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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I think that it is very wise to say that "hot drinks" refers to coffee and tea, and leave off getting technical about it.

Well if that's the position we're going to stick with it can't really be about health.  There's no nutritional or medical reason to ban those two substances and not other with similar content.

So that's fine with me, but it's not a health issue if those are the only two banned.

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57 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, you better cut it out. It's apparently against the Word of Wisdom.

Yeah, how crazy of the God of all to misspeak like that.  He might want to check his stutter.

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