The Nehor Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 6 minutes ago, Navidad said: It is pretty interesting and moderately entertaining to read this thread as a non-member. I don't mean the moderately entertaining part to be offensive. It just is what it is. I find it entertaining because it reminds me so much of the convulations that Mennonites go through to justify or explain the cultural prohibitions in our faith that assumed theological proportions over time. Most of them have gone away since the 1950s. Some that come to mind are the prohibitions against dancing (we don't allow premarital sex because it leads to dancing!), no movie theaters, no face card playing (but we are vicious Rook players, cheating as regularly as possible), no television, especially on Sunday (until your father discovers I've Got a Secret and What's My Line? on Sunday night after evening service - then sitting around the TV with mac n cheese and stewed tomatoes becomes "family time), no tobacco in any form (except cigars for those farmers who grew Connecticut shade tobacco for cigar wrappers), men and women sitting on opposite sides of the church service, no instruments in worship services (we invented the acapella genre of singing before it was popular), no make-up or jewelry, prayer coverings for ladies, no alcohol except for the occasional beer behind the barn, etc etc. The one that stuck with me was the one about playing face cards or gambling. Although I must admit (please keep it confidential) that about thirty years ago I once put a quarter in a slot machine at a gas station in Hawthorne, NV. I figured there couldn't possibly be a Mennonite anywhere near Hawthorne. The thing started clinging and clanging and I think I won $10. After that one episode I thought that maybe there was something to this gambling thing! Ha! I drink coffee on occasion. My wife drinks it more regularly. I sense zero addiction to it. I have a cup of hot tea most mornings. I enjoy that but don't feel any compulsion about it. I do regularly drink Dr. Pepper - always diet. We really don't consciously use any sugar as an additive to anything and don't drink any sugared drinks. We live in a real beer culture here in Mexico. No temptation for me - I really don't like it. The tug-of-war in my heritage between cultural prohibitions and scriptural/theological ones has always been an interesting phenomenon. Here is Mexico we still have Mennonites without electricity, certain modes of transportation, and lots of dress restrictions. It may entertain you to know that there are still some amongst us who find face cards an abomination and three Sundays ago I was playing poker Sunday evening. For chips instead of money though. I'm not a sinner. Link to comment
Warlock Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 43 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It may entertain you to know that there are still some amongst us who find face cards an abomination and three Sundays ago I was playing poker Sunday evening. For chips instead of money though. I'm not a sinner. Everyone is a sinner Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 Just now, Warlock said: Everyone is a sinner Stop projecting. Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Five children in six years and two more four years later...sleep deprivation is inevitable. ::shudders:: that’s literally one of my nightmares i’m pretty sure. I knew you had a large family, but I couldn’t remember how large. I’m assuming I’m older than when you started (I was 31 when I had my daughter) and I came from a large family as the oldest with parents that used me heavily to help raise them while I was in the house. So I’ve always known I wanted kids but not a ton of them and never to the point that I couldn’t manage their care with my spouse. The age also comes with an awareness of my body and needing it not to be super taxed. Can’t ignore that like i used to un my 20’s. So I’ve been extremely mindful and cautious about the context before deciding to try. I was thinking of another last year. But the contexts of pandemic and where our daughter was at was one big fat no! 4 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It does help, even the ritual of sitting with a mug of hot liquid and sipping, alone or with someone else socialising, can be comforting and then energising in itself. It’s summer. It’s definitely iced for me 😋 i think most that ritual for me is still tied more to herbal teas. I have an extensive garden and several herbs that I regularly make tea with. To make loose leaf tea I need to go into the garden, pluck the herbs I want while meandering through my plants, I smell them deeply in my hands and get a bit of aromatherapy from the chamomile, peppermint, lemon verbana, and Hyssop. There’s nothing tastier or more relaxing than fresh herbal tea after a long day. If I have a guest, I make a big batch and serve it to them as a novelty. And in the winter i store the dried leaves and use them. It brings sweet reminders of my garden. caffeinated tea is medicinal for me. I drink it when I’m usually not at my best. So it’s deeply appreciated but doesn’t have nearly the ritual or joy that comes from a fresh cup of herbal tea or food. i know I keep probably coming off as contradictory to both ends. I don’t think caffeine, coffee, or tea is terrible and inherently unhealthy. But I also don’t think they’re uniquely magical, nutritious, or irreplaceable. And at times they can have a few negative consequences. But at the end of the day, they’re just liquids that either side have at times applied meaning and emotions to. to me abstaining from coffee and certain teas hold meaning to me towards covenants I value and principals I deeply believe in and hope for. For you they hold new meanings of friends, comfort, and a jolt of energy. And that’s a-okay to me. with luv, BD Edited July 27, 2021 by BlueDreams 2 Link to comment
Warlock Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 53 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Stop projecting. I've never met a fellow human being who's not a sinner can you point me in the right direction? Link to comment
bOObOO Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Warlock said: I've never met a fellow human being who's not a sinner can you point me in the right direction? I think the word sinner refers to someone who is actively committing a sin, rather than someone who committed a sin in the past while no longer actively committing a sin. Consider the difference between someone who repents and someone who doesn't repent. So I could point you to people who have repented and no longer commit those sins they committed in the past, referring to those who have repented as saints rather than sinners. Edited July 27, 2021 by bOObOO Link to comment
Bob Crockett Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, Warlock said: Everyone is a sinner Yer Bill Reel, right? Same run-on sentences. Comments upon only simple issues. I know yer Bill Reel. As soon as you came on the board you went and found about five of my posts on unrelated topics and voted them down. Hmm. Nobody else has it out for me. Yer so obvious. Is this how your antiMormon effort works? I don't care. Welcome back. Come by my offices and I'll treat you to lunch. Edited July 28, 2021 by Bob Crockett Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 17 minutes ago, bOObOO said: I think the word sinner refers to someone who is actively committing a sin, rather than someone who committed a sin in the past while no longer actively committing a sin. Consider the difference between someone who repents and someone who doesn't repent. So I could point you to people who have repented and no longer commit those sins they committed in the past, referring to those who have repented as saints rather than sinners. No. Link to comment
bOObOO Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No. Say it with some style why don't cha Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, bOObOO said: Say it with some style why don't cha No. Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 11 hours ago, BlueDreams said: I don’t think caffeine, coffee, or tea is terrible and inherently unhealthy. But I also don’t think they’re uniquely magical, nutritious, or irreplaceable. And at times they can have a few negative consequences. But at the end of the day, they’re just liquids that either side have at times applied meaning and emotions to. to me abstaining from coffee and certain teas hold meaning to me towards covenants I value and principals I deeply believe in and hope for. For you they hold new meanings of friends, comfort, and a jolt of energy. And that’s a-okay to me. with luv, BD For many people in the world, tea and coffee *are* just liquids. People may or may not consume them, purely based on their own preferences and experience with them. A personal expression of devotion is one thing, an outward expression of worthiness is another. I don't think that the attachment of worthiness to something so relatively trivial (and sometimes possibly helpful) is good. Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 55 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: For many people in the world, tea and coffee *are* just liquids. People may or may not consume them, purely based on their own preferences and experience with them. A personal expression of devotion is one thing, an outward expression of worthiness is another. I don't think that the attachment of worthiness to something so relatively trivial (and sometimes possibly helpful) is good. I’m not sure how one could tell the difference looking from the outside. Or fully what you mean…(?) with luv, BD 1 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Meadowchik said: For many people in the world, tea and coffee *are* just liquids. People may or may not consume them, purely based on their own preferences and experience with them. I live in a nation that subsidises private health cover in order to relieve demand on the public (universal) system. My cover includes a 'healthy challenges' program that rewards me with credits for completing certain health-generating activities, and in turn these credits can be used to reduce my premiums or redeemed for medical goods or services. (I use mine to get my supply of contact lenses for free.) One of the 'healthy challenges' that I am encouraged to complete each day as part of this program is to abstain from coffee and tea. Clearly, the medical, statistical and financial experts tasked with running health funds and keeping them solvent understand that tea and coffee are not 'just liquids'. Edited July 28, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 3 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 9 hours ago, BlueDreams said: I’m not sure how one could tell the difference looking from the outside. Or fully what you mean…(?) with luv, BD The difference between what? Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I live in a nation that subsidises private health cover in order to relieve demand on the public (universal) system. My cover includes a 'healthy challenges' program that rewards me with credits for completing certain health-generating activities, and in turn these credits can be used to reduce my premiums or redeemed for medical goods or services. (I use mine to get my supply of contact lenses for free.) One of the 'healthy challenges' that I am encouraged to complete each day as part of this program is to abstain from coffee and tea. Clearly, the medical, statistical and financial experts tasked with running health funds and keeping them solvent understand that tea and coffee are not 'just liquids'. I'm sure that the common use of sugar and condensed milk in drinks including coffee and tea has nothing to do with that health challenge. I can't stand sweetened drinks, though. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I'm sure that the common use of sugar and condensed milk in drinks including coffee and tea has nothing to do with that health challenge. And you would be right ... despite your intended sarcasm. I was 98 per cent certain you would fall back on that exact deflection. By the way, I've never seen condensed milk used in hot drinks here, just steamed milk (both dairy and soy) for coffee, cold milk for certain teas. And in cafes, both coffee and tea are served unsweetened, with paper packets of sugar to be added if the consumer wishes. (My health program also rewards those who reduce their sugar consumption.) 2 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: And you would be right ... despite your intended sarcasm. I was 98 per cent certain you would fall back on that exact deflection. By the way, I've never seen condensed milk used in hot drinks here, just steamed milk (both dairy and soy) for coffee, cold milk for certain teas. And in cafes, both coffee and tea are served unsweetened, with paper packets of sugar to be added if the consumer wishes. (My health program also rewards those who reduce their sugar consumption.) Where is "here?" Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Where is "here?" In the nation where I live. Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 57 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: The difference between what? The two motivations you bring up. And I’m still not fully sure what you mean or are picturing on this second part: “anoutward expression of worthiness is another. I don't think that the attachment of worthiness to something so relatively trivial (and sometimes possibly helpful) is good.” with luv, BD 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 11 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I don't think that the attachment of worthiness to something so relatively trivial (and sometimes possibly helpful) is good. Otoh, if we neglected the relatively trivial, mundane, then it would be IMO more difficult to create sacred space in our daily lives…which offer many trivial opportunities to do so, but far fewer reliable eventful, extraordinary moments. Link to comment
Bob Crockett Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 On 7/16/2021 at 9:57 AM, Scott Lloyd said: I ran across this article about the effects of caffeine on the human body. It gives good, science-based rationale for my hearty support of the prohibition in the Word of Wisdom against coffee and tea consumption (including green tea). Furthermore, it gives rationale for my continued abstinence from colas and other caffeine-laden beverages, notwithstanding they seem to have found unprecedented acceptance among our people and present-day Church leaders no longer discourage their use. https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/05/the_proper_way_to_drink_caffeine.html I have no doubt this is true, being a long-time Diet Coke drinker. My sports gels all have caffeine and I get some boost out of them. But I know it is bad for the body, as using caffeine requires me to take blood pressure medicine. Thanks for the very timely reminder. 1 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 29 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: In the nation where I live. 15 minutes ago, BlueDreams said: The two motivations you bring up. And I’m still not fully sure what you mean or are picturing on this second part: “anoutward expression of worthiness is another. I don't think that the attachment of worthiness to something so relatively trivial (and sometimes possibly helpful) is good.” with luv, BD For you, the "abstaining from coffee and certain teas hold meaning" related to your beliefs. Would you still abstain if the abstinence weren't a requirement of worthiness? For example, you might choose to abstain from dairy products for spiritual reasons also, but that abstinence has no impact on church worthiness. There's a difference between making such decisions based on personally-developed decisions versus church requirements. Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Otoh, if we neglected the relatively trivial, mundane, then it would be IMO more difficult to create sacred space in our daily lives…which offer many trivial opportunities to do so, but far fewer reliable eventful, extraordinary moments. The little things *can* make a difference indeed. They can spark joy and be a part of positive moves which enhance life. Which is why external interference in them can be troublesome. Link to comment
Calm Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Which is why external interference in them can be troublesome. Advertising, choice of what to supply by producers and distributors, advice from medical professionals and tons more from amateurs…all that is external interference and yet everyone survives that….sure, external interference can be troublesome, but it is not inherent and need not be. Edited July 28, 2021 by Calm Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 19 hours ago, Bob Crockett said: Yer Bill Reel, right? Same run-on sentences. Comments upon only simple issues. I know yer Bill Reel. As soon as you came on the board you went and found about five of my posts on unrelated topics and voted them down. Hmm. Nobody else has it out for me. Yer so obvious. Is this how your antiMormon effort works? I don't care. Welcome back. Come by my offices and I'll treat you to lunch. Haha, lol. Bill's posts don't have as good of grammar than even Warlock's. But that's not to say Bill is unintelligent, he's just not worried about that as much. Link to comment
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