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Reconciling bruce r. McConkie


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23 minutes ago, Chum said:

How many decades did law enforcement find this monstrous, systemic abuse so uninteresting, they couldn't be bothered to protect even one child?

What you have to understand is that the law did not get involed because they were natives. How else could these schools take children and allow no parental visits. Some schools let parents visit once a week for a month and then no visits. Even prisons let you visit your loved ones.

Edited by Metis_LDS
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1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

What you have to understand is that the law did not get involed because they were natives. How else could these schools take children and allow no parental visits. Some schools let parents visit once a week for a month and then no visits. Even prisons let you visit your loved ones.

I'm unclear that their native status matters in this case. I base that on 100 years of N. American LEO ~never, ever protecting children from serial abuse.

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3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Someone gives you directions to a destination far far away.  You follow those directions in ever detail but long into your journey you discover that many of the directions you were given were either false, based on bad information or sending you to a destination that may not even exist.  Do you continue to follow those original directions or do you stop, seek more information and reevaluate the path you are on? I chose the latter.

This is not a specific example for how you were irretrievably led astray from your practice of the religion by Church leaders' teachings. Given your assertions, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to engage on that -- I've asked a couple of times at least.

Edited by CV75
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2 hours ago, Amulek said:

I don't want to derail the thread, but this isn't even remotely close to being an accurate characterization of the Galileo affair.

Scientists at that time had serious and valid challenges to the theory that the earth moved around the sun - the biggest being the absence of stellar parallax.

No one in the 17th century was able to observe parallax effects, not even Galileo himself. In fact, it wasn't until more than 150 years after his death that stellar parallax was finally observed.

So, no, it wasn't a matter of "merely look[ing] through the telescope to prove that the earth moved around the sun."

Galileo happened to be correct, but he certainly wasn't able to prove that he was right. He was pushing his theory beyond what the facts (read: science) supported.

Which, in a way, is kind of ironic when you think about it. Because isn't that what faith really is - a belief in something that is true but yet to be proven.

 

I was using it as more of a metaphor, but thanks

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

This is not a specific example for how you were irretrievably led astray from your practice of the religion by Church leaders' teachings. Given your assertions, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to engage on that -- I've asked a couple of times at least.

Losing ones faith in the church does not come down to a single item.  Most of us , including me, can over come a single item or two or three and just set those issues aside. It's when those items become overwhelming that faith is lost.  My journey is my own and what might seem impactful to me could very well seem trivial to you.

Specific to your question, I've lost faith in the brethren as prophets, seers and revelator.  I view them simply as mortals with the same foibles as any other human being but especially having no special insight into the question of the eternities an any other human being's speculations.  They make the best of what they do, but to me they are faking it, playing a role acting the part.  I do not believe that any of them speak with a God. And so I must conclude that they are being deceitful as well. 

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6 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Honestly I try to walk a very fine line on this board.

Thanks for clarifying. It helps understand your other responses better and to see them in a more positive light. 

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21 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Losing ones faith in the church does not come down to a single item.  Most of us , including me, can over come a single item or two or three and just set those issues aside. It's when those items become overwhelming that faith is lost.  My journey is my own and what might seem impactful to me could very well seem trivial to you.

Specific to your question, I've lost faith in the brethren as prophets, seers and revelator.  I view them simply as mortals with the same foibles as any other human being but especially having no special insight into the question of the eternities an any other human being's speculations.  They make the best of what they do, but to me they are faking it, playing a role acting the part.  I do not believe that any of them speak with a God. And so I must conclude that they are being deceitful as well. 

This still doesn’t answer my question, it just beats around the bush with repeated general statements of bias -- not a very scientific approach.

So, it seems you’ve never been led astray, but just decided to go elsewhere for “whatever” reasons (I don’t care about those, and wasn’t asking) and need to reconcile yourself by portraying those who stay as rationalizing their being led astray.

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3 hours ago, Amulek said:

I don't want to derail the thread, but this isn't even remotely close to being an accurate characterization of the Galileo affair.

Scientists at that time had serious and valid challenges to the theory that the earth moved around the sun - the biggest being the absence of stellar parallax.

No one in the 17th century was able to observe parallax effects, not even Galileo himself. In fact, it wasn't until more than 150 years after his death that stellar parallax was finally observed.

So, no, it wasn't a matter of "merely look[ing] through the telescope to prove that the earth moved around the sun."

Galileo happened to be correct, but he certainly wasn't able to prove that he was right. He was pushing his theory beyond what the facts (read: science) supported.

Which, in a way, is kind of ironic when you think about it. Because isn't that what faith really is - a belief in something that is true but yet to be proven.

 

As I understand it, Galileo's point about looking through the telescope is not that one could actually see the earth going around the sun, but that one could see that not everything in the universe revolved around the earth.  Galileo was able to show through his telescope that Jupiter had moons that revolved around it, and not around the earth, proving that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

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18 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Losing ones faith in the church does not come down to a single item.  Most of us , including me, can over come a single item or two or three and just set those issues aside. It's when those items become overwhelming that faith is lost.  My journey is my own and what might seem impactful to me could very well seem trivial to you.

Specific to your question, I've lost faith in the brethren as prophets, seers and revelator.  I view them simply as mortals with the same foibles as any other human being but especially having no special insight into the question of the eternities an any other human being's speculations.  They make the best of what they do, but to me they are faking it, playing a role acting the part.  I do not believe that any of them speak with a God. And so I must conclude that they are being deceitful as well. 

I have never believed that they have actual conversations with God; probably not not since Joseph Smith. They pray and receive revelation in the form of thoughts that come into their minds that are inspired of God. The Holy Ghost bears witness to them in their minds and spirits that what they have received is from God.
"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." (D&C 9:8)  

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7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This still doesn’t answer my question, it just beats around the bush with repeated general statements of bias -- not a very scientific approach.

So, it seems you’ve never been led astray, but just decided to go elsewhere for “whatever” reasons (I don’t care about those, and wasn’t asking) and need to reconcile yourself by portraying those who stay as rationalizing their being led astray.

I took your bate and provided you with an answer to your question but as long as we've started I'll provide you with an extremely specific doctrine taught by McConkie that is verifiably false.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/three-pillars-eternity/

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6 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I post here to help me sort out the things I ask myself in my head.  I've put more mental effort into investigating the truth claims of the church than into any other thing in my life. 

One suggestion I have is to settle the #1 truth claim: that God lives and loves you and build from there. To paraphrase https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/07/afc-eng-local-pages/local-news-002?lang=eng :

  • Decide about God.
  • Decide whether He knows and loves you.
  • Decide whether you can speak to Him.
  • Decide whether Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.
  • Decide whether the kingdom of God is on the earth.
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15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It is not bait -- is this what led you astray? How?

It's an example of doctrines being taught as if true that are in fact false.  So yes its an example of being led astray.

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The fall of Adam brought temporal and spiritual death into the world, and the atonement of Christ ransomed men from these two deaths by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This makes the fall as essential a part of the plan of salvation as the very atonement itself.

This doctrinal assertion that according to McConkie is just as essential a part of the plan of salvation (rebranded as the Plan of Happiness) as the atonement itself...IS FLATY NOT TRUE

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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24 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I have never believed that they have actual conversations with God; probably not not since Joseph Smith. They pray and receive revelation in the form of thoughts that come into their minds that are inspired of God. The Holy Ghost bears witness to them in their minds and spirits that what they have received is from God.
"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." (D&C 9:8)  

I look at them as spiritual men acting on revealed to them feelings. Just like the rest of us that are spiritual and strive to stay close to spirit. I'm bad at it, it's what I'm working on though. 

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4 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

It's an example of doctrines being taught as if true that are in fact false.  So yes its an example of being led astray.

That is not what I was asking. It seems you have a blind spot about providing a specific example for how you were irretrievably led astray from your practice of the religion by Church leaders' teachings. That might mean that you have less of a blind spot for my previous post: Posted 6 minutes ago

 

Edited by CV75
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7 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'll provide you with an extremely specific doctrine taught by McConkie that is verifiably false.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/three-pillars-eternity/

As I asked before, is your problem really with Elder McConkie or with biblical literalism?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the "verifiably false" doctrines you keep bringing up seem to all hinge on a very literal interpretation of scripture.

These are the kinds of things that seem to be more problematic for fundamental evangelicals who hold to a literal (inerrant) view of scripture than Latter-day Saints.

 

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7 minutes ago, Amulek said:

As I asked before, is your problem really with Elder McConkie or with biblical literalism?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the "verifiably false" doctrines you keep bringing up seem to all hinge on a very literal interpretation of scripture.

These are the kinds of things that seem to be more problematic for fundamental evangelicals who hold to a literal (inerrant) view of scripture than Latter-day Saints.

 

I'm merely sharing examples of straws being placed on the back of the camel that over time and with accumulation broke the back.   I shared an example where McConkie taught false doctrine.  If he can teach false doctrine so can current GA's.  its a slippery slope. 

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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10 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm merely sharing examples of straws being placed on the back of the camel that over time and with accumulation broke the back.   I shared an example where McConkie taught false doctrine.  If he can teach false doctrine so can current GA's.  its a slippery slope. 

But not all 15 apostles and prophets are collectively going to allow false doctrine to be preached to the church. If one of them does make a mistake they are corrected by the other 14, just like elder McConkie was. Anything official that has a bearing on our eternal lives has to be agreed upon by all 15 of them.

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1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Losing ones faith in the church does not come down to a single item. 

I wonder if it should come down, though, to a few items.  The fundamentals.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Most of us , including me, can over come a single item or two or three and just set those issues aside. It's when those items become overwhelming that faith is lost. 

But what if "those items" are not central to faith?  What if they are not foundational?  What if they are off the mark?  What if we blow them up to being disproportionately significant in our perspective?

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Specific to your question, I've lost faith in the brethren as prophets, seers and revelator.

Okay.  I hope you keep moving forward, and that you do so in faith (the tenor of your posts and thread titles tends toward cynicism).

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I view them simply as mortals with the same foibles as any other human being

That's pretty much how I view them, though I think they are generally very good and decent people.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

but especially having no special insight into the question of the eternities an any other human being's speculations. 

Ah.  And there's where our paths diverge.  The scriptures are replete with insights about "the question{s} of the eternities."  And if the revelations are confirmed and ratified by the Holy Spirit, then they are quite distinguishable from "other human being's speculations."

I don't think Joseph Smith fabricated the Book of Mormon.  I don't think he formulated the doctrines and insights in the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.  I don't think he was part of a conspiratorial hoax.

This brings me back to my above comments about "fundamentals."  As an attorney, I am intrigued by the Book of Mormon.  I think critics and opponents of the Church have done a very poor job of explaining its origins.  Hugh Nibley had it right, I think:

Quote

The Book of Mormon is tough. It thrives on investigation. You may kick it around like a football, as many have done; and I promise you it will wear you out long before you ever make a dent in it.

“A Twilight World,” CWHN 5:153

When I was young I prayed about and received what I understood to be a spiritual confirmation of the Book of Mormon.  In the ensuing years, I continued to read it and strengthen by belief in and understanding of it.  I went into the Army.  I served a mission, from which I returned in 1995 to find this "Internet" thing that included all sorts of divergent viewpoints about the origins of the book.  I was on ZLMB prior to this board, and joined this board in 2004.

Through all of that, I keep going back to the beginning.  I believe the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.  From there, I reason and extrapolate.  I infer and deduce.  

As for the Brethren, I cut them a lot of slack.  I think the early leaders of the Church were working with a fairly limited toolset.  Few precedents.  Our current crop of leaders are working hard and, in the main, doing admirably well in their fields of stewardship.  And again, I think they are overwhelmingly good and decent men and women.  And yet, I believe they are broadly in communion with God and are doing what He wants them to do.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

They make the best of what they do, but to me they are faking it, playing a role acting the part.

Sorry, but I can't go along with that.  I think they are sincere.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I do not believe that any of them speak with a God. And so I must conclude that they are being deceitful as well. 

That's not really based on evidence, though, is it?  You've reached a conclusion, and so are starting from there and working backwards (which takes you to "deceit").

I believe in God.  I believe in Jesus Christ.  I believe there is a plan for us.  I believe that plan includes God communicating with man cumulative through prophets and apostles, and also with individuals directly via the Holy Spirit.  I believe important truths and authority were restored through Joseph Smith.  I believe that these truths and authority continue to be propagated and held by the Church of Jesus Christ.  The leaders of the Church today aren't perfect, but I don't need them to be.  

I wish you well in your efforts.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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48 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm merely sharing examples of straws being placed on the back of the camel that over time and with accumulation broke the back.   I shared an example where McConkie taught false doctrine.  If he can teach false doctrine so can current GA's.  its a slippery slope. 

As said elsewhere, the only ex cathedra statements in the Church are those approved by the Q12.  

I sure as heck know that Bishops and Stake Presidents make mistakes and are only men.  Why are not the Brethren the same?

Edited by Bob Crockett
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46 minutes ago, JAHS said:

But not all 15 apostles and prophets are collectively going to allow false doctrine to be preached to the church. If one of them does make a mistake they are corrected by the other 14, just like elder McConkie was. Anything official that has a bearing on our eternal lives has to be agreed upon by all 15 of them.

If “no death before the fall” (meaning no physical death) is one of FD’s false doctrines, that is pretty much a collective error in the sense of being officially promoted, as can be demonstrated by a search on the Church’s website. 
 

Now whether that has a bearing on eternal life is debatable as it is a consistent contribution in discussions about the Fall and therefore the Atonement. 

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