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Interest in the mexican colonies?


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Good morning again from sunny Chihuahua. I am hoping this will be an interesting (at least for me) conversation. This morning I was at our former bishop's home in Colonia Juarez. He and his wife are in the process of moving to the Mesa area. He laughingly told me that "everyone in the Mesa area has a connection to the colonies (by which he meant the Mormon Mexican colonies). I have found the same thing in various meetings, conferences, etc. I have attended. I know I have had discussions with SMAC about his close family ties here, but I don't remember if, in my active (this forum) years I ever had discussions with anyone else. So my questions to start a conversation are basically these:  Do any of you have any particular interest in the Mexican colonies? Any familial ties here? How many of you have actually been to any of the 8, 10, or 12 (like everything else it depends on who you ask) Mexican colonies? Have any of you actually studied, read about the colonies because of a particular interest?

In the same vein, do any of you have an interest in the LeBaron Mexican colonies or those started by Bautista (one for sure still exists)? Last, as faithful (or not) members of the church, do you have any particular questions about the colonies that interest you? If so, related to what?   I am simply trying to gauge the interest in the colonies on the part of "regular" LDS folks wherever they might live.

We are still active in the ward - enjoying it and learning something new all the time. One thing for sure, it is a learning experience. Thanks so much and best wishes to all.

Edited by Navidad
clarity
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16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Good morning again from sunny Chihuahua. I am hoping this will be a fairly safe and interesting (at least for me) conversation. This morning I was at our former bishop's home in Colonia Juarez. He and his wife are in the process of moving to the Mesa area. He laughingly told me that "everyone in the Mesa area has a connection to the colonies (by which he meant the Mormon Mexican colonies). I have found the same thing in various meetings, conferences, etc. I have attended. I know I have had discussions with SMAC about his close family ties here, but I don't remember if, in my active (this forum) years I ever had discussions with anyone else. So my questions to start a conversation are basically these:  Do any of you have any particular interest in the Mexican colonies? Any familial ties here? How many of you have actually been to any of the 8, 10, or 12 (like everything else it depends on who you ask) Mexican colonies? Have any of you actually studied, read about the colonies because of a particular interest?

In the same vein, do any of you have an interest in the LeBaron Mexican colonies or those started by Bautista (one for sure still exists)? Last, as faithful (or not) members of the church, do you have any particular questions about the colonies that interest you? If so, related to what?   I am simply trying to gauge the interest in the colonies on the part of "regular" LDS folks wherever they might live.

We are still active in the ward - enjoying it and learning something new all the time. One thing for sure, it is a learning experience. Thanks so much and best wishes to all.

I have no family ties there.  If I ever go to Mexico, I highly, highly  doubt it will be for the purpose of visiting a Mormon colony.  But the subject is of interest to me and I always enjoy your participation and reading your historical expertise and insight on the area. 

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Half of my great-grandparents were born in the colonies.  My grandparents and parents have been there.  I have no memory of visiting them but it is possible that I did when I was a young child since my grandparents were just across the border in New Mexico and had family there.

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I don't have any particular connection to the Colonies of which I am aware, but perhaps that bears further investigation.  Regardless, history always has fascinated me, and, for that reason alone, I think the Colonies would be worth a visit ... provided no one considered me an interloper and sought, for that reason, to eject me forthwith. ;)

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On 7/13/2021 at 11:14 AM, pogi said:

I have no family ties there.  If I ever go to Mexico, I highly, highly  doubt it will be for the purpose of visiting a Mormon colony.  But the subject is of interest to me and I always enjoy your participation and reading your historical expertise and insight on the area. 

Thanks Pogi for your kindness and the reply.

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On 7/13/2021 at 11:22 AM, Rain said:

I have no particular interest, but I do live in Mesa and have heard many times of connections of people I know to the colonies.

I hope someday you get to meet and chat with our former bishop. He is a wonderful Godly man! He and his wife are leaving here to be closer to their grandchildren.

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On 7/13/2021 at 11:43 AM, rodheadlee said:

I live in Ensenada when I'm home. I've been down to Mexico quite a few times as far as the Guatemala border. I have never been to the colonies. I'm interested.

There was a fascinating fundamentalist Mormon colony quite close to  Ensenada. I would love to visit there some time. I lived in San Diego for years and never went to see it. I regret that.

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23 hours ago, webbles said:

Half of my great-grandparents were born in the colonies.  My grandparents and parents have been there.  I have no memory of visiting them but it is possible that I did when I was a young child since my grandparents were just across the border in New Mexico and had family there.

Come down and see us some time. It sounds like you have a strong heritage here. Thanks for the reply.

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20 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't have any particular connection to the Colonies of which I am aware, but perhaps that bears further investigation.  Regardless, history always has fascinated me, and, for that reason alone, I think the Colonies would be worth a visit ... provided no one considered me an interloper and sought, for that reason, to eject me forthwith. ;)

The folks here are very kind and welcoming, even to the occasional stray Mennonite!

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20 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I have plenty of ties.  I have been to the outskirts of the city where my grandfather had a ranch but never in the city.   Lots of fond memories.  Both material grandparents born in the Colonies.

Thanks for your reply. Do you know which colony your grandparents were born in?

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I guess I have a couple of more questions - Do most members of the church have a familiarity with the Mexican and Canadian colonies? Are there any teachings about them in the seminaries or other classes? Of those who know of the colonies is the sense one of pride, embarrassment  because of the poligamous connection, or just a simple informational knowledge. The folks who came here described themselves as the stalwarts of the church. They certainly had strong connections to the church leaders at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th. Thanks to all who have or will reply.

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I guess I have a couple of more questions - Do most members of the church have a familiarity with the Mexican and Canadian colonies?

I cannot speak for "most members of the Church" of Jesus Christ, but the information is out there if one knows where to look.  (By the way, speaking of "information [being] out there" and "know(ing) where to look," your starting the thread has piqued my curiosity and led me to seek out additional information of which, previously, I was unaware.  Thank you. :hi: )

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Are there any teachings about them in the seminaries or other classes?

It's been awhile since I was in Seminary or Institute.  It's not really a focus, since, historically, members of the Church of Jesus Christ have tended to dwell (and were commanded, at least at that time, to gather) where the leadership and the main body of the Latter-day Saints have been.  The focus is on doctrine rather than on history, although, certainly, Latter-day Saints in Mexico are (and have been) superb examples of living their faith, and there is much that can be learned from them.  

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Of those who know of the colonies is the sense one of pride, embarrassment  because of the poligamous connection ...

Proper pride?  Definitely.  As I say, we can learn much both from the history and the current faithfulness of Latter-day Saints in Mexico.  Embarrassment?  Not for me, Commissioner! :D 

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

... or just a simple informational knowledge.

I don't know that there's much thought given to the colonies generally, since, as you know having attended classes of the Church of Jesus Christ, the focus is on doctrine (although, of course, you have attended classes in [at least one of] the colonies, so that may be something of "a different kettle of fish.) 

In history classes in secular settings that are, nonetheless, sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ, such as at one of Brigham Young University's campuses?  I would imagine that there is at least some interest there.  In that same vein, I'd like to see someone who is absolutely convinced that there must be an absolute, strict, impermeable, impenetrable separation between church and state attempt to teach Utah history without referring in any way to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  That would be a neat trick.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

The folks who came here described themselves as the stalwarts of the church. They certainly had strong connections to the church leaders at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th. Thanks to all who have or will reply.

I cannot possibly imagine what it was like for those initial settlers.  I hope that their descendants pay them appropriate homage, and I would imagine that they do.  As for what I have found in my brief investigation, some of which is on line (see the first two links below) and some of which I may have to look at purchasing at some point (see the third link below):

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1972/09/mormon-colonies-beacon-light-in-mexico?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/colonies-in-mexico?lang=eng

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Colonies-Mexico-Thomas-Cottam/dp/0874808383

And someone should do a documentary on the Latter-day Saint Mexican colonies.  (I nominate you to spearhead that effort! ;):D)

Edited by Kenngo1969
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On 7/13/2021 at 11:07 AM, Navidad said:

Good morning again from sunny Chihuahua. I am hoping this will be an interesting (at least for me) conversation. This morning I was at our former bishop's home in Colonia Juarez. He and his wife are in the process of moving to the Mesa area. He laughingly told me that "everyone in the Mesa area has a connection to the colonies (by which he meant the Mormon Mexican colonies). I have found the same thing in various meetings, conferences, etc. I have attended. I know I have had discussions with SMAC about his close family ties here, but I don't remember if, in my active (this forum) years I ever had discussions with anyone else. So my questions to start a conversation are basically these:  Do any of you have any particular interest in the Mexican colonies? Any familial ties here? How many of you have actually been to any of the 8, 10, or 12 (like everything else it depends on who you ask) Mexican colonies? Have any of you actually studied, read about the colonies because of a particular interest?

I visited Colonia Juarez, Colonia Dublan, and Colonia Garcia in 2006 with my father and older brother.

My dad knows quite a bit about the Colonies.  He has presented a number of times at Education Week.  From 2015:

Quote

Taylor O. Macdonald

The Mormon Colonies in Mexico B190 Joseph F. Smith Building (JFSB)

T Early Mormon Settlement in Mexico
W The Golden Age of the Mexican Colonies: 1890 to 1912
Th The Mexican Revolution and the Mormon Exodus of 1912
F Resettlement of Some of the Colonies, the Myths and Realities of Pancho Villa’s Activities in Relation to the Mormons, and the Colonies Today

From 2019:

Quote

The Latter-day Saint Colonies in Mexico: Early Explorations and Settlements
The Golden Age of the Mexican Colonies: 1890 to 1912
The Mexican Revolution and the Mormon Exodus of 1912
Resettlement, Pancho Villa, and the Colonies Today

Taylor O. Macdonald 

My dad's parents met in the Colonies.  My grandfather was from the Macdonalds and my grandmother was from the Taylors and Richardsons.

On 7/13/2021 at 11:07 AM, Navidad said:

In the same vein, do any of you have an interest in the LeBaron Mexican colonies

In an academic sense, sure.  It's an interesting anthropological area.  However, I feel no particular religious kinship with them.

We briefly visited Colonia LeBaron during our 2006 trip.  It was . . . not much to see.

On 7/13/2021 at 11:07 AM, Navidad said:

or those started by Bautista (one for sure still exists)?

I assume you are referencing this?

Quote

The Third Convention was a dissident group of Mexican Latter-day Saints (Mormons) who broke away from the main body of church authority in 1936 over a dispute about local governance and autonomy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Mexico.

A contributing cause of the dissension may have been the Cristero War of 1926-1929, a counter-revolutionary movement against certain anti-clerical provisions of the 1917 Mexican Constitution. These provisions had expelled foreign clergy from Mexico, resulting in isolation of Mexican Mormons from their church's headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah.[1]

As a result, a group of Mexican Mormons led by Abel Páez, first counselor of the Mexican district presidency, demanded that church leadership appoint a Mexican mission president "of pure race and blood" (de pura raza y sangre). After three rebuffs, a breakaway faction of the Mexican mission district organized what came to be known as the Third Convention, separate from and without authority from church leadership in the United States. These "Third Conventionists" (as they were known) conducted missionary activity in some small mountain villages in central Mexico.[2]

Several members of the Third Convention were temporarily excommunicated by the LDS Church during the period in which it was active, although most of these were changed to the lesser punishment of disfellowshipment by President George Albert Smith in 1946, signaling a compromise. Rapprochement continued with President Smith's visit to Mexico that year, resulting in most Third Conventionists returning to the fellowship of the LDS Church.[1]

Though scholars had believed the Third Convention movement had died out, anthropologist Thomas W. Murphy located an active Third Conventionist community in Ozumba, Mexico in 1996. The group was situated in Colonia Industrial, founded in 1947 as the community of Margarito Bautista, a prominent Third Conventionist. As of 2011, there are 800 people living in Colonia Industrial, and all are members of a church officially named El Reino de Dios en su Plenitud (The Kingdom of God in its Fullness), though adherents preferred to call themselves "Mormons."[3][4] The group practiced plural marriage and communal principles of the law of consecration, and seemed to be moderately affluent. They were affiliated with the Apostolic United Brethren Mormon fundamentalist church, and saw Owen Allred as a prophet.[4]

It looks like the "El Reino de Dios en su Plenitud" is still a think.  See here and here.

On 7/13/2021 at 11:07 AM, Navidad said:

Last, as faithful (or not) members of the church, do you have any particular questions about the colonies that interest you? If so, related to what?   I am simply trying to gauge the interest in the colonies on the part of "regular" LDS folks wherever they might live.

We are still active in the ward - enjoying it and learning something new all the time. One thing for sure, it is a learning experience. Thanks so much and best wishes to all.

I'm interested in all matters pertaining to the Colonies.

Thanks,

-Smac

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I have an interest in the colonies.  I have visited a few of them several years ago including Colonias Juarez and Dublan.  I have studied the history of the church in Mexico, and served a Spanish speaking mission.   

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4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I guess I have a couple of more questions - Do most members of the church have a familiarity with the Mexican and Canadian colonies? Are there any teachings about them in the seminaries or other classes? Of those who know of the colonies is the sense one of pride, embarrassment  because of the poligamous connection, or just a simple informational knowledge. The folks who came here described themselves as the stalwarts of the church. They certainly had strong connections to the church leaders at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th. Thanks to all who have or will reply.

I don't know about most members, but I've obviously known about the Mexican colonies and I've heard of the Canadian colonies.  The Cardston, Alberta temple is one of the early temples of the church and is built for the Canadian colonies.  If it wasn't for the Mexican revolution and the abandonment of a lot of the colonies, I bet a temple in the Mexican colonies would have happened a lot sooner.

I don't remember having any teachings about either the colonies, but I also don't remember any teachings about a lot of the various places that encompassed Deseret, such as all of the Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, and California locations.

I'm proud of those who made a living in the colonies and all of the other places.

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7 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Theodore Turley?  

My last Turley was Francis Turley who married Miles Archibald Romney in the colonies in the late 19th Century.

Yes, through wife Amelia and daughter Charlotte. 

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I have no connection to the colonies but I've always found them fascinating in origin and history.

I've wanted to read this for a while: https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Evolution-Margarito-Bautista-Evangelizer/dp/019094210X/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=margarito+bautista&qid=1626310879&sprefix=margarito+&sr=8-3

But not at that price...☹️

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6 hours ago, Navidad said:

There was a fascinating fundamentalist Mormon colony quite close to  Ensenada. I would love to visit there some time. I lived in San Diego for years and never went to see it. I regret that.

Where is it located?

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11 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I have an interest in the colonies.  I have visited a few of them several years ago including Colonias Juarez and Dublan.  I have studied the history of the church in Mexico, and served a Spanish speaking mission.   

Podemos platicar, entonces.  (For the benefit of the censors, so they don't think I'm plotting the overthrow of the Board, "We can chat, then.") :D 

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