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The state of deseret


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Would like some education on this, just learned about what the early LDS pioneers had before Utah was a thing.  So far, my impression is, as always you guys worked hard to make something not only habitable but also quite nice then the feds came along and well, here we are.  I had no idea just how much territory Deseret covered, it would explain why the LDS presence is seen as far as it is.  Living in CO as long as I have I can tell the difference whenever I'm in the western slope.  Besides the obvious (smaller population) the culture feels different, in a good way.  Input, education and enlightening discussion is appreciated, thanks!

Edited by poptart
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53 minutes ago, poptart said:

 Living in CO as long as I have I can tell the difference whenever I'm in the western slope.  Besides the obvious (smaller population) the culture feels different, in a good way.  

My family and I immediately notice a difference when we leave heavily LDS areas.  Just driving through Vegas down to San Diego and back recently neighborhood changes were noticeable.

We don't blend as well as we may think with the general population.

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

I had no idea just how much territory Deseret covered,

The amount of territory was enormous. I think the extent of the territory proposed may have depended upon the far-flung extent of LDS-sponsored settlements.

250px-State_of_Deseret,_vector_image_cro

More information can be found on Wikipedia: State of Deseret

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The State of Desert, being a non-starter, doesn't interest me as much as the Deseret Alphabet. Also a non-starter, but a far more rational one. The alphabet was intended to replace the traditional Latin alphabet with an alternative, more phonetically accurate alphabet for the English language.

Although interesting, it was a failure (no significant use outside of enthusiasts), and had a few flaws. It was based on the English pronunciation of the mostly-New England originating settlers in Utah. Unfortunately, they forgot to include a glyph for the sound referred to as "schwa" (the "uh" sound that is used for many vowels). Maybe it wasn't a matter of forgetting. I don't know. But I understand that there have been shift in pronunciations in English since the mid-1800s, and the alphabet doesn't account for them. 

Nevermind. I'd hate to have to start learning a new alphabet.

 

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I don’t know too. I have about it. I just remember Utah (Deseret at the time) tried multiple times to become part of the US and become a state, each time reducing the amount of territory they would claim… though I may be wrong about even that haha

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There was a show on discovery channel, history channel or National Geographic channel called “How the States got their Shapes”. It does a really good job explaining how Utah started as a territory called Deseret and how big it was originally proposed and then shrunk down to the size Utah is today.

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13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The amount of territory was enormous. I think the extent of the territory proposed may have depended upon the far-flung extent of LDS-sponsored settlements.

250px-State_of_Deseret,_vector_image_cro

More information can be found on Wikipedia: State of Deseret

Fun to think that the State of Deseret (as originally conceived) had a Pacific coastal port. It would have facilitated convert immigration and missionary travel I suppose. 

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Do you think we'll get the coastal port back in the millennium? ;)  Probably not.  Since the land masses are supposed to come back together, people who own prime West Coast real estate are going to be royally ticked (:angry:to find themselves living somewhere in the Midwest! ;):D :rofl:

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On 7/10/2021 at 5:24 PM, 2BizE said:

There was a show on discovery channel, history channel or National Geographic channel called “How the States got their Shapes”. It does a really good job explaining how Utah started as a territory called Deseret and how big it was originally proposed and then shrunk down to the size Utah is today.

No snark?  And in its place, substance and civility?  2BizE, I'm shocked! :o :blink: 

;):D 

(Since I can't give you a rep point, this'll have to do: +1! ;))

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On 7/10/2021 at 12:47 PM, JLHPROF said:

My family and I immediately notice a difference when we leave heavily LDS areas.  Just driving through Vegas down to San Diego and back recently neighborhood changes were noticeable.

We don't blend as well as we may think with the general population.

Lol no you don't, I can often times spot a Mormon a ways off.  If it makes you feel any better i've been mistaken for a member mostly because I have no tattoos, I like the outdoors and healthy living.  That and I still use ma'am/sir, don't swear much in public and know how to just lay low when need be.  Considering how unhealthy in body/mind a lot of the US population is, yeah a stereotypical LDS family with a bunch of kids would stick out like a sore thumb.

 

On 7/10/2021 at 1:13 PM, Stargazer said:

The State of Desert, being a non-starter, doesn't interest me as much as the Deseret Alphabet. Also a non-starter, but a far more rational one. The alphabet was intended to replace the traditional Latin alphabet with an alternative, more phonetically accurate alphabet for the English language.

Although interesting, it was a failure (no significant use outside of enthusiasts), and had a few flaws. It was based on the English pronunciation of the mostly-New England originating settlers in Utah. Unfortunately, they forgot to include a glyph for the sound referred to as "schwa" (the "uh" sound that is used for many vowels). Maybe it wasn't a matter of forgetting. I don't know. But I understand that there have been shift in pronunciations in English since the mid-1800s, and the alphabet doesn't account for them. 

Nevermind. I'd hate to have to start learning a new alphabet.

 

More I learn about Deseret for interested I am.  Most people have no idea just how much control you guys used to have, is that something that's not discussed outside of LDS circles much?  I know with say some Evangelicals they love to go on about how Christian the founding fathers were (They were Deists, funny how no one mentions the Jefferson bible...), how they founded this and that while bickering amongst themselves who's right and who isn't.  So far you guys are winning the civilization fight in this country, more power to you I'd have no complaints to see Deseret come back.  

13 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Do you think we'll get the coastal port back in the millennium? ;)  Probably not.  Since the land masses are supposed to come back together, people who own prime West Coast real estate are going to be royally ticked (:angry:to find themselves living somewhere in the Midwest! ;):D :rofl:

Will the Mormon elect associate with outsiders much?  I'd like to Visit Mormon heaven and see if John Browning is doing business.  If I have to sit through sacrament meeting to talk about his craft it would be worth it.  

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

I know with say some Evangelicals they love to go on about how Christian the founding fathers were (They were Deists, funny how no one mentions the Jefferson bible...),

You might be interested in this article in the online Encyclopedia Britannica: The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

In short, many were Deists, but certainly not all.

I recall having read something Franklin wrote about Deism, in which he wrote that while he thought well of Deism as a philosophy, but he recognized that it was devoid of the ability to influence men to do good. He was less keen on it later in life.

The LDS doctrine on the founding fathers of the US is expressed in a revelation to Joseph Smith, found in Doctrine and Covenants 101:80:

And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Apparently, the Lord didn't need properly devout men to establish the Constitution; just more-or-less honorable ones who understood the political principles He wanted them to promulgate. 

 

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On 7/12/2021 at 11:03 AM, Stargazer said:

You might be interested in this article in the online Encyclopedia Britannica: The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

In short, many were Deists, but certainly not all.

I recall having read something Franklin wrote about Deism, in which he wrote that while he thought well of Deism as a philosophy, but he recognized that it was devoid of the ability to influence men to do good. He was less keen on it later in life.

The LDS doctrine on the founding fathers of the US is expressed in a revelation to Joseph Smith, found in Doctrine and Covenants 101:80:

And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Apparently, the Lord didn't need properly devout men to establish the Constitution; just more-or-less honorable ones who understood the political principles He wanted them to promulgate. 

 

The enlightenment was in full swing as well as religious politics.  It was the 30 years war that made many Protestants flee Germany, needless to say many years later were not too thrilled with the status quo.  

To be fair that's kind of how the Church was and is supposed to be, that was why Christ set up the church, gave St. Peter the keys.  He might as well have said "here ya go, don't screw up lol".  Lot of the early saints had issues, St. Augustine for one and countless others.  St ignatius had his military career dashed to pieces and discovered his calling while in a sick bead with nothing but church stuff to read.  
On this side of the pond that wasn't always a great thing, the Great Awakening did much to ruin Christianity as well as help pave the way for the prosperity gospel.  Reason why I changed my mind about Joseph Smith, compared to what he had to deal with when he had his vision, lol yeah he'd have been the far better choice.  You still see the effects of all that on the various Baptist groups out there (hundreds I think)  They split over slavery and are still at each others throats.  Now because of politics they are losing people like crazy and are still playing the same divisive, backstabbing political games they've always played.  The irony, they fled (in some cases were kicked out) of Europe for similar stuff they pulled here and have the nerve to play the persecution card.  Even some Lutherans were guilty of similar things, read up on Stephanism and what became the Missouri Synod if you want some education on the more high church end of Protestantism.

The Rise and Fall of Martin Stephan - Leben

Martin Stephan - Wikipedia

Way I see it, the Supreme Being, whomever he/she is gives us all enough freedom/rope to do as we will, hanging ourselves included.  Even if you mess up, you get to glorify deity by being an example to the rest of the world of what not to do.  

Poor Joseph Smith, he really did get screwed.  Thats why I feel bad for the guy, he actually tried and the powers that be didn't like him getting converts and their money.  Funny how little has changed since then.

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On 7/12/2021 at 9:43 AM, poptart said:

  

Will the Mormon elect associate with outsiders much?  I'd like to Visit Mormon heaven and see if John Browning is doing business.  If I have to sit through sacrament meeting to talk about his craft it would be worth it.  

Sure.  When it comes to Zion here on earth, heck, if you agree to be peaceable, there's no real reason why you couldn't live among us.

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On 7/12/2021 at 9:43 AM, poptart said:

Lol no you don't, I can often times spot a Mormon a ways off.  If it makes you feel any better i've been mistaken for a member mostly because I have no tattoos, I like the outdoors and healthy living.  That and I still use ma'am/sir, don't swear much in public and know how to just lay low when need be.  Considering how unhealthy in body/mind a lot of the US population is, yeah a stereotypical LDS family with a bunch of kids would stick out like a sore thumb.

 

More I learn about Deseret for interested I am.  Most people have no idea just how much control you guys used to have, is that something that's not discussed outside of LDS circles much?  I know with say some Evangelicals they love to go on about how Christian the founding fathers were (They were Deists, funny how no one mentions the Jefferson bible...), how they founded this and that while bickering amongst themselves who's right and who isn't.  So far you guys are winning the civilization fight in this country, more power to you I'd have no complaints to see Deseret come back.  

Will the Mormon elect associate with outsiders much?  I'd like to Visit Mormon heaven and see if John Browning is doing business.  If I have to sit through sacrament meeting to talk about his craft it would be worth it.  

“Mormon heaven” IS heaven. 

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On 7/10/2021 at 11:41 AM, poptart said:

Would like some education on this, just learned about what the early LDS pioneers had before Utah was a thing.  So far, my impression is, as always you guys worked hard to make something not only habitable but also quite nice then the feds came along and well, here we are.  I had no idea just how much territory Deseret covered, it would explain why the LDS presence is seen as far as it is.  Living in CO as long as I have I can tell the difference whenever I'm in the western slope.  Besides the obvious (smaller population) the culture feels different, in a good way.  Input, education and enlightening discussion is appreciated, thanks!

Las Vegas & San Bernardino were both first settled by Mormon Pioneers to name just a few. They were also instrumental in the discovery of Gold in California

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“Mormon heaven” IS heaven. 

Depends who you ask, i'm not a believer in what many who follow some form of Christianity heaven, I'm more of a reincarnation/rebirth kind of guy with maybe a Pure Land/Elysium of sorts out there.  

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Las Vegas & San Bernardino were both first settled by Mormon Pioneers to name just a few. They were also instrumental in the discovery of Gold in California

>Gold

go on, i'm listening.

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Sure.  When it comes to Zion here on earth, heck, if you agree to be peaceable, there's no real reason why you couldn't live among us.

Looking forward to the Luaus.  That and making friends with Browning, that guy was awesome.  

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1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Las Vegas & San Bernardino were both first settled by Mormon Pioneers to name just a few. They were also instrumental in the discovery of Gold in California

IIRC, there was also Mormon presence at Los Angeles.  The boundaries of Deseret were expansive, but I think the plan Brigham Young followed for the “short term” was a strong of settlements along the Wasatch Front extending north into Idaho and southwest to a port around Los Angeles, with a person never having to travel more than a day’s journey without going through a Mormon town.

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2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Las Vegas & San Bernardino were both first settled by Mormon Pioneers to name just a few. They were also instrumental in the discovery of Gold in California

 

43 minutes ago, poptart said:

 

>Gold

go on, i'm listening.

 

FD has not yet responded, so I will. 
 

Discharged members of the Mormon Battalion, before heading east to reunite themselves with the Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City, went north to Sacramento, where they hired on with John Sutter, who had built Sutter’s Fort. While working for him at Sutter’s Mill, they found gold nuggets. This was the beginning of the historic Gold Rush of 1849. 

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3 hours ago,  Scott Lloyd said: 

“Mormon heaven” IS heaven. 

pop tart said:

Depends who you ask, …

I respond:

in the movie “The Ten Commandments,” after the plagues and after Pharoah with his hosts have failed to apprehend the fleeing Israelites, Pharoah is obliged to acknowledge, “Moses’s god IS God.” 
 

Likewise, everyone will one day recognize that “the Mormon god IS God,” “the Mormon Jesus IS Jesus,” and “the Mormon heaven IS heaven.”

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15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

FD has not yet responded, so I will. 
 

Discharged members of the Mormon Battalion, before heading east to reunite themselves with the Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City, went north to Sacramento, where they hired on with John Sutter, who had built Sutter’s Fort. While working for him at Sutter’s Mill, they found gold nuggets. This was the beginning of the historic Gold Rush of 1849. 

Additionally, the first written reference to the discovery of gold comes from the journal of Battalion veteran Henry Bigler; and it’s thanks to that journal that history has preserved the actual date of the discovery.  And it was another Mormon, Sam Brannan, who (having failed to convince Brigham Young to settle the Church in California) publicized the discovery by waving bottles newly-mined gold from the American River around the streets of San Francisco, in hopes of establishing himself as a merchant to gold-seekers.

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

FD has not yet responded, so I will. 
 

Discharged members of the Mormon Battalion, before heading east to reunite themselves with the Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City, went north to Sacramento, where they hired on with John Sutter, who had built Sutter’s Fort. While working for him at Sutter’s Mill, they found gold nuggets. This was the beginning of the historic Gold Rush of 1849. 

Interesting, thanks for sharing.  Part of me wishes we still lived in simpler times.

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

3 hours ago,  Scott Lloyd said: 

“Mormon heaven” IS heaven. 

pop tart said:

Depends who you ask, …

I respond:

in the movie “The Ten Commandments,” after the plagues and after Pharoah with his hosts have failed to apprehend the fleeing Israelites, Pharoah is obliged to acknowledge, “Moses’s god IS God.” 
 

Likewise, everyone will one day recognize that “the Mormon god IS God,” “the Mormon Jesus IS Jesus,” and “the Mormon heaven IS heaven.”

>Movie

>little evidence that all the stuff Moses did in the bible happened.

>Talking to a cultural Christian who's on a different specturm.

Nah, pass.  If you want to use something that's more in tune with me speak of he early church fathers and Saints who helped set up the first hospitals and schools.  Also St. Nicholas smacking a heretic, that was cool.  Also, Pope Francis and Elder Holland.  

Since you're going with Egypt, here's what comes to mind when I think of a supreme God of sorts.  

 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

in the movie “The Ten Commandments,” after the plagues and after Pharoah with his hosts have failed to apprehend the fleeing Israelites, Pharoah is obliged to acknowledge, “Moses’s god IS God.” 

So let it be written, so let it be done.

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

Interesting, thanks for sharing.  Part of me wishes we still lived in simpler times.

>Movie

>little evidence that all the stuff Moses did in the bible happened.

>Talking to a cultural Christian who's on a different specturm.

Nah, pass.  If you want to use something that's more in tune with me speak of he early church fathers and Saints who helped set up the first hospitals and schools.  Also St. Nicholas smacking a heretic, that was cool.  Also, Pope Francis and Elder Holland.  

Since you're going with Egypt, here's what comes to mind when I think of a supreme God of sorts.  

 

I wasn’t suggesting that the movie scene is historically accurate (I’m not an idiot). 
 

I was using the fictional dialogue as an allegory for the point I was making. You may accept or reject my point at will. 

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49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wasn’t suggesting that the movie scene is historically accurate (I’m not an idiot). 
 

I was using the fictional dialogue as an allegory for the point I was making. You may accept or reject my point at will. 

Ops my bad I read into that too much, sorry.

The whole Exodus thing to me was kinda iffy, I look at the Bible as allegory anyway.  Personally I liked the burning bush and this part.

 

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On 7/11/2021 at 8:11 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

No snark?  And in its place, substance and civility?  2BizE, I'm shocked! :o :blink: 

;):D 

(Since I can't give you a rep point, this'll have to do: +1! ;))

Thanks Kenngo. I’ll take the rep point. I’m not all snark, just…most of the time.  

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