Bernard Gui Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) On 7/9/2021 at 2:01 PM, Teancum said: I think it is pretty clear Jesus of Nazareth did not condone the accumulation of massive wealth. Do you really want to drill into that? Did He own the garments he wore? Edited July 12, 2021 by Bernard Gui Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, randy said: This notion is FALSE FALSE FALSE!!! I got married VERY young. Our Church family helped us countless times over the first decade and a half. The Bishop ALWAYS gave me opportunities to work for what I received. NEVER...EVER....was I ever made to feel like a "charity case"! Also, I never FELT like I was a charity case. Quite the contrary....although I knew I was in a tight spot, I always was able to maintain my dignity because I was working for what I received, plus...I was striving to live the gospel to the best of my ability and knowledge at the time. I went to the Bishops Storehouse to pick up my families order....my wife and I went to the Bishops Storehouse to work. I traveled with my EQ to Far West Welfare Farm to buck hay, repair fences and foundations. I did what I was asked to do and what I was justifiably expected to do. I was asked to pay my 5.00 a week in tithing because that is what the Lord had commanded me to do. The only "domino effect" that occured was my increased faith in the Lord, my Wife's increased faith in the Lord and my Childrens increased faith in the Lord.....among many many other priceless life lessons. You are laboring under a woefully incorrect and cynical notion of the true purpose of tithing. Because we paid our tithing on my 50.00 a week paycheck (thats right) the Lord blessed our family in ways that perhaps you cannot understand. But, I am now 64 yrs old....11 months away from a great retirement.....and in my heart of hearts...I know without doubt, hestitation or reservation that it is the DIRECT result of paying tithing "when we couldn't afford it"! Well, I feel like a dolt, thanks for this. I need to shut up then. I remember getting some help while growing up with food when my dad lost his job and then had to work 3 part time jobs with 6 children. But I should really think before posting from now on. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Me too! I have a strong testimony of tithing, would not be where I am without it! Add we need to think about other avenues that we receive with the church, like talking to members of the ward to find where there are jobs available at cetera. I said nothing about not paying tithing ever, just paying the bills. Edited July 12, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
Stargazer Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 23 hours ago, Teancum said: If that happens how much do you think their investments will be worth? A lot less! But much of that investment portfolio is land, which doesn't really lose value. Of course market value fluctuates with circumstances, but land value usually doesn't go to zero. I've seen reports (possibly rumors) that the super-rich have begun buying up land at a faster rate -- allegedly because they foresee a serious problem coming up. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Stargazer Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 21 hours ago, 2BizE said: Imagine taking your family to your favorite Italian restaurant. After eating the waiter presents you a check for $150 for the meal, which you pay. Then the restaurant tells you that the restaurant now requires that before leaving, the patrons of restaurant need to wash their own dishes, and clean the bathrooms and mop the restaurant floor…what would you do in that situation? Oh, that's amusing! Comparing a church to a restaurant. Could you find a less valid comparison? I doubt it. Restaurants are there to make money. Churches are there to make better people. Slightly dissimilar goals. 5 Link to comment
Popular Post Stargazer Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 16 hours ago, 2BizE said: I’m taking about immense poverty in South America and other areas of the world. There are no Bishop’s Storehouses to send the family. There is not a DI for non-food needs. There are not reserves of food. Most of the ward members are just as poor. These are the people that need help, yet the fast offerings paid are not really available like in parts of Utah. Do you live there? And why wouldn't fast offering be available to help out? Do you have numbers you can present, or are you just tossing out presumptions as if they were facts? There are no Bishops Storehouses in the UK, either, so far as I have heard, yet members here who are struggling to put food on the table here still get food assistance. As the clerk of my stake I am in a unique position to see this. Our stake is actually fully fast-offering self-sufficient -- not sure if this is common or not here in the UK. Over the past 12 months, our wards have paid out a total of nearly £10,000 in food assistance to those who needed it. Not all were members. We don't need a bishop's storehouse. Recently the church sent out debit cards, 3 to each ward, for bishops, RS, and EQ presidents to use to buy food for those who needed it. So our bishops storehouses are located in the local Sainsburys, Tescos, Aldis, and other grocery stores. Our wards have also been using fast offering funds to help out members having difficulty paying housing costs. We've paid out more in housing assistance, in fact, than food assistance. I don't know what the situation is in South America, but it would surprise me if the same facility we have here in the UK were not also present and working there, too. 6 Link to comment
Popular Post Stargazer Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 12 hours ago, 2BizE said: I agree with this. It is an unnecessary risk to have members cleaning toilets and using chemicals, etc. The church has $$ that members have already paid to cover the cost of church maintenance. The church should hire professional janitors. The church still has professional janitors. But they don't do routine cleanup. For example, in my old stake in the US (Washington state) the facilities department has full-time maintenance personnel who, although not assigned to just one meetinghouse, do the non-routine building maintenance that doesn't require licensed professionals (like HVAC, plumbing, electricians, etc). I have a friend who just recently retired from this work. When I first moved into the ward 36 years ago, he was the full-time building janitor, and he cleaned the building every week along with doing maintenance. When the church started asking members to do the routine cleaning, he was reassigned to a facilities maintenance district and along with other similar workers he did non-routine maintenance from that time on, in several buildings, sometimes in teams with other maintenance guys. Those members "risking their lives" using chemicals to clean toilets at church are, believe it or not, using the same chemicals to clean their own darned toilets at home. You're really over-reaching yourself to find something to complain about. Just curious, are you one of those people risking their lives cleaning your own toilet at home? Come on, 2BizE, are you too busy to find something slightly more substantive to gripe and moan about? 5 Link to comment
Popular Post randy Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: Well, I feel like a dolt, thanks for this. I need to shut up then. I remember getting some help while growing up with food when my dad lost his job and then had to work 3 part time jobs with 6 children. But I should really think before posting from now on. No need to shut up....just understand that there are other forces at work when a person steps out on that willow limb and pays their tithing the way the Church counsels us to. There are blessings that are being realized at the moment, and in my case...also blessings that our family didn't realize for almost 25 yrs. We had six kids as well. I know the drill about working working and doing whatever is required to work and solve the problem. You say you were not talking about "not" paying tithing. Well, a reasonable person reading your initial post could certainly draw that conclusion. I did, and I have pretty good reading comprehension. 5 Link to comment
Teancum Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Did He own the garments he wore? I imagine so. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Stargazer said: The church still has professional janitors. But they don't do routine cleanup. For example, in my old stake in the US (Washington state) the facilities department has full-time maintenance personnel who, although not assigned to just one meetinghouse, do the non-routine building maintenance that doesn't require licensed professionals (like HVAC, plumbing, electricians, etc). I have a friend who just recently retired from this work. When I first moved into the ward 36 years ago, he was the full-time building janitor, and he cleaned the building every week along with doing maintenance. When the church started asking members to do the routine cleaning, he was reassigned to a facilities maintenance district and along with other similar workers he did non-routine maintenance from that time on, in several buildings, sometimes in teams with other maintenance guys. Those members "risking their lives" using chemicals to clean toilets at church are, believe it or not, using the same chemicals to clean their own darned toilets at home. You're really over-reaching yourself to find something to complain about. Just curious, are you one of those people risking their lives cleaning your own toilet at home? Come on, 2BizE, are you too busy to find something slightly more substantive to gripe and moan about? Re-thinking my comments about the chemicals used to clean the bathrooms. It's not the chemicals that we should worry about since they are pretty safe, the church probably did make sure of that, but IMO they aren't what your average person uses in the bathroom to disinfect a toilet. So a problem still remains, the e-coli isn't totally prevented. I want to bet that your friend that cleaned the toilets years ago in the ward building used harsher chemicals than the church provides it's members to clean the bathroom toilets. In fact I cleaned the restrooms a few times in our old ward, especially when my husband was in the High Priest's presidency and he was in charge of getting the members to help clean. We didn't always have enough people. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, randy said: No need to shut up....just understand that there are other forces at work when a person steps out on that willow limb and pays their tithing the way the Church counsels us to. There are blessings that are being realized at the moment, and in my case...also blessings that our family didn't realize for almost 25 yrs. We had six kids as well. I know the drill about working working and doing whatever is required to work and solve the problem. You say you were not talking about "not" paying tithing. Well, a reasonable person reading your initial post could certainly draw that conclusion. I did, and I have pretty good reading comprehension. I didn't say not ever paying tithing did I? Edited July 12, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
Calm Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Just because something is packaged differently, doesn’t mean it is necessarily more dangerous or stronger. The stuff for home use is all about looking user friendly, professional is about looking cheap but effective. I think it would be important to actually look at ingredients and compare before assuming they are significantly different. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 4 hours ago, Amulek said: The chemicals which are accessible to members for cleaning the building are no more harmful than what you would use to clean your own bathroom. My kids have been involved in the 'high risk' activity of cleaning their own bathroom with these kinds of chemicals ever since they were eight years old. And we make them clean their bathroom every week. At church, we're talking about maybe having to clean a bathroom or two once a quarter at most. I think we'll live. Too bad the cleaner is just a general all purpose cleaner, hardly enough to kill bacteria. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/callings/meetinghouse-care/cleaning-cards-5x7-v4.pdf Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Just because something is packaged differently, doesn’t mean it is necessarily more dangerous or stronger. The stuff for home use is all about looking user friendly, professional is about looking cheap but effective. I think it would be important to actually look at ingredients and compare before assuming they are significantly different. Touche! I would like to get to the bottom of it. Link to comment
Popular Post bsjkki Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 If people are not wanting to clean the bathrooms, they don’t have to. It’s not like you will lose your temple recommend or anything. I don’t think Bishops would force someone if they had health concerns. People can set their own boundaries. We are discussing adults, right? My family has never minded and my husband heads straight to the bathrooms and dusts the top of doorways because he is tall. 5 Link to comment
Calm Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, bsjkki said: If people are not wanting to clean the bathrooms, they don’t have to. It’s not like you will lose your temple recommend or anything. I don’t think Bishops would force someone if they had health concerns. People can set their own boundaries. We are discussing adults, right? My family has never minded and my husband heads straight to the bathrooms and dusts the top of doorways because he is tall. I never did vacuuming as I hated the noise. 2 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Calm said: Just because something is packaged differently, doesn’t mean it is necessarily more dangerous or stronger. The stuff for home use is all about looking user friendly, professional is about looking cheap but effective. I think it would be important to actually look at ingredients and compare before assuming they are significantly different. This article mentions that our toilets should be cleaned with bleach. So I see a huge need for a professional to clean the toilets. And the handles on the faucets. And when I've cleaned the church I often wondered if the handles on all the doors/cupboards were cleaned....ever. I don't see it on the note cards left for the members cleaning the church. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/callings/meetinghouse-care/cleaning-cards-5x7- v4.pdfhttps://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/germs-in-bathroom Scrub the inside of the toilet bowl. "This should be done at least a couple times a week with products that contain bleach," Horowitz says. Edited July 12, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
Stargazer Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: If people are not wanting to clean the bathrooms, they don’t have to. It’s not like you will lose your temple recommend or anything. I don’t think Bishops would force someone if they had health concerns. People can set their own boundaries. We are discussing adults, right? My family has never minded and my husband heads straight to the bathrooms and dusts the top of doorways because he is tall. Doing the bathroom is probably something that keeps one from having to worry about the rest of the building, since most people would prefer to let others do the dirtier work. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: This article mentions that our toilets should be cleaned with bleach. So I see a huge need for a professional to clean the toilets. And the handles on the faucets. And when I've cleaned the church I often wondered if the handles on all the doors/cupboards were cleaned....ever. I don't see it on the note cards left for the members cleaning the church. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/callings/meetinghouse-care/cleaning-cards-5x7- v4.pdfhttps://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/germs-in-bathroom Scrub the inside of the toilet bowl. "This should be done at least a couple times a week with products that contain bleach," Horowitz says. My wife scrubs the inside of our toilet bowl at least twice a week with the nice, thick bleach that is commonly available in the UK. It's made thick for just this purpose, so it sticks to the bowl. Link to comment
Popular Post randy Posted July 12, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I didn't say not ever paying tithing did I? No...you did not. However, you did put forth the notion or questioned why members of the Church who are struggling financially should be required or expected to pay tithing. Also, that members who are struggling and need assistance from the Church's welfare system are some how made to feel that they are, in your words "a charity case". The impression that I received from your initial post was that if the math didn't add up....they should not be required or even encouraged to pay their tithing first..as the Prophets and Apostles have taught us to do. You also stated that.. to the member needing assistance, that they are required/expected to go to family first for assistance. This is good and wise counsel. Difficult to do for a variety of reasons...but still common sense. You mentioned about how we're taught to be self-reliant. This is true, but not just in temporal things...but spiritually self-reliant as well. When one pays their tithing first....the individual/family learn to be both spiritually and temporally self-reliant. win-win ! 7 Link to comment
Peacefully Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 hours ago, bsjkki said: If people are not wanting to clean the bathrooms, they don’t have to. It’s not like you will lose your temple recommend or anything. I don’t think Bishops would force someone if they had health concerns. People can set their own boundaries. We are discussing adults, right? My family has never minded and my husband heads straight to the bathrooms and dusts the top of doorways because he is tall. I’ve found that the earlier I arrive for my assignment, the more choices I have:) 1 Link to comment
Chum Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, Peacefully said: I’ve found that the earlier I arrive for my assignment, the more choices I have:) Definitely. Volunteer first to grab the assignment you want. 1 Link to comment
Chum Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: This article mentions that our toilets should be cleaned with bleach. Yeah I don't think we ever used bleach; it was some white bottle, commercial cleaner. I kept having to tell people is to dump buckets of water down the bathroom floor drains to keep the trap filled. Otherwise the sewer would waft up and no one understood where the smell came from. 1 Link to comment
2BizE Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 10 hours ago, Stargazer said: Oh, that's amusing! Comparing a church to a restaurant. Could you find a less valid comparison? I doubt it. Restaurants are there to make money. Churches are there to make better people. Slightly dissimilar goals. Who do you pay more money to each month? The restaurant down the street or the church? Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted July 13, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, 2BizE said: Who do you pay more money to each month? The restaurant down the street or the church? I'm far more interested in making people better than in having other people serve me. Consequently, I pay far more money to the Church each month than I would pay to restaurants over the course of the entire year. Edited July 13, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 5 Link to comment
Popular Post strappinglad Posted July 13, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 13, 2021 As a Stake building specialist/PFR I will say that the cleaning agents we use are Hydrogen peroxide based . They come in 2 strengths, one for general purpose cleaning and the other ( twice the concentration ) only for toilets. As I have said before, our building is a designated emergency shelter. The gov't inspectors come by twice a year. They have told me personally that our cleaning agents are the top of the line ones and are recommended . 5 Link to comment
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