'A message from the gay community performed by the san francisco gay mens chorus'

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

They are talking about making the world a friendlier and more fair place for the LGBTQ community.  Isn't that the same message the church has been supporting for quite some time now?  Didn't the church come out and support the Love Out Loud Concert series put on by the Imagine Dragons singer, which promotes this very same message?   Remember, there are many active Latter Day Saint members who identify as part of this community, including David Archuleta.  This is not going away.  They are saying that there is no stopping this infectious movement.  They do so in a comical style which pokes at the fears of the old-schooler fear/hate based mentality pretty much saying, you had your way for long enough and you lost, even hard-core old-schoolers are being converted by their children to this movement.  The fact is, they are absolutely right.  There is absolutely no new revelation here.  It has been happening for some time.   They are not talking about making your children gay for crying out loud.  

 

Spot on!  But your rational approach to this prevents those like Smac from generating a  false persecution complex.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It's French: Çette animal est très méchant.  Quand on l'attaque, il se defend.  "This animal is very vicious.  When attacked, it defends itself."

I guess I remembered it as being German because Dan spoke German on his mission. 
 

I do like my rendering better, though yours is the correct translation. 

[Kenngo1969]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Spot on!  But your rational approach to this prevents those like Smac from generating a  false persecution complex.

Smac97 is entitled to his own opinions and take on the matter, as you are, as I am, as anyone else is.  Speaking of rational approaches, you could try, you know, rhetoric, dialogue, logic, et cetera, in an effort to convince him he's mistaken instead of simply dismissing anything he has to say with an airy wave of the hand and a, "Meh!  He simply has a persecution complex."  Or, failing that, you could at least accord him credit for holding the opinions he does in good conscience and in good faith rather than imputing bad motives to him, even if you disagree with him.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I get it. You don’t understand what the song was about or what it was communicating. Just don’t try to draw conclusions about what was being communicated if you don’t understand it. The statements you are handwringing about are part of a deliberate and OBVIOUS parody. They are pretending to be the “gay agenda” you live in perpetual fear with their verbiage mimicking the paranoid ravings of those who would make them the source of all evil. While doing that they subvert the whole thing by changing the objective from the one you are paranoid about to the one they actually seek which is relatively benign.

It is also worth noting that by acting outraged in ignorance you are furthering their goals. The younger generation that is not poisoned gets the message and has a good laugh at the caricature. Meanwhile the outraged nuts further alienate the next generation by behaving like the caricature and looking like humor-blind idiots while they do it.

So, this outrage is hurrying social change you ostensibly do not want. Either that or you are one of our plants in the establishment in which case I commend your commitment to the resistance comrade! ALL HAIL THE REVOLUTION!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Important Note: If you feel the urge to lambast me as a communist or crazy revolutionary for what I just wrote I will give you a little hint:

I am not outraged by it, but I think it was done with extremely poor taste and I have to wonder why they thought this would be a good thing.  We are talking about parents great desire to protect and teach children here.  While there are a couple of lines to try to redeem the song and I get that it is satire just the words come out as such an attack that it is no wonder people react the way we do.

I strongly feel we should be kind, but the words come out so strong just when I read them that I have to go through the process of what is meant by them each time I read them.  I mean I am strongly trying to see it from their point of view, but it comes out so vicious that even while doing that it is very difficult to do.

And seriously, there is such an edge and attack to it that it takes it past satire.

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Rain

[california boy]

23 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Smac97 is entitled to his own opinions and take on the matter, as you are, as I am, as anyone else is.  Speaking of rational approaches, you could try, you know, rhetoric, dialogue, logic, et cetera, in an effort to convince him he's mistaken instead of simply dismissing anything he has to say with an airy wave of the hand and a, "Meh!  He simply has a persecution complex."  Or, failing that, you could at least accord him credit for holding the opinions he does in good conscience and in good faith rather than imputing bad motives to him, even if you disagree with him.

Except we have seen SMAC start numerous posts designed to disparage the LGBT community.  Here he had a really great post idea that he thought he could gin up fear and disgust against the gay community.  He even had a pedophile in his back pocket to spring on the thread at just the right moment.  He was so excited about that little nugget that he didn't even bother to check out to see if that was even accurate.  He even had some great online comments to post that were nasty and cutting that he could use to shore up his wobbly attack.  And just to insure his attack would bring out the worst of people on this board he left out the most important (and explanatory) line of the song:

WE'LL CONVERT YOUR CHILDREN...
WE'LL MAKE THEM TOLERANT AND FAIR.

What he found instead is more intelligent community that is not like the lynching right wing mob where he picked up this little attack.  A group of people that actually thought about what the song was saying and why.   He must be so disappointed.  And I am so proud of those posters on this forum that no longer put up with this kinda of crap.  

If I am wrong, please,  just what was the purpose of starting this tread if not to sow fear and disgust against the LGBT community?

Edited July 8, 2021 by california boy

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Quote

The problem with smac's post is that he assumes that my gay employees subscribe to this garbage.  It looks like garbage exploited by the right wing.

It looks like the type of scare-mongering posted on extreme right-wing media sites.

It looks like the video was intended to provoke and offend.  And it seems to be working.

Meanwhile, Queerty published an article in 2011 entitled "Can We Please Just Start Admitting That We Do Actually Want To Indoctrinate Kids?"  I won't provide a link, as the content is not suitable for this site.  

And HuffPo published this in 2016: "I Have Come to Indoctrinate Your Children Into My LGBTQ Agenda (And I’m Not a Bit Sorry)"

Some of what these articles say is meritorious.  But they sure seem to be going out of their way to provoke and offend.

I am concerned that stuff like this, and the stuff in the OP, is divisive and ultimately undermines the "let's all get along" efforts that I think are worth pursuing.  As a fellow on Twitter put it: "I get that this is a joke, but it’s like frat houses I’ve seen with signs for freshers arriving on campus 'Fathers, kiss your virgin daughters goodbye'. It’s a joke, but it’s in terrible taste and does not win them any fans or sympathy."  Yep.

And another: "I hate when these creeps entitle things 'A message from the gay community'. No. Most of us are sane, and want nothing to do with this woketard madness. FFS stay away from people's kids. It's not clever or funny. It pisses everyone off."  Yep.

And others:

• "Disgusting.  I’m gay and I’m appalled."
• "Do they want to turn their progress back 50 years? Because that's how you get people to hate gays."
• "Well if THIS wouldnt want to make you hate a group of people I dont know what would!..."
• "They just destroyed decades of support."
• "Anybody else notice the double entendre of the line, 'We’re coming for your children?'"

I think there are a lot of people like me.  People who are trying to suss out a path that involves continuing religious devotion alongside greater empathy, understanding and respect for our gay brothers and sisters.  But then stuff like this song comes along, which at once A) accuses anyone who doesn't think exactly like them of hatefulness and bigotry, and B) tauntingly states that they are "coming for {our} children."

Holy cow.  Who was the intended audience for this song?  Who are they trying to persuade?  And persuade them to what idea(s)?  Don't they see that they are playing with fire?  Don't they see that the provocateur schtick may get a few belly laughs from folks who already agree with them, but will likely offend and alienate people who have been seeking to find empathy and mutual respect?  How on earth can these guys expect to receive respect by insulting people like me, accuse us of terrible things, and then tauntingly sing about "coming for {our} children"?  Don't they see that they are are provoking fear, suspicious and anger with stuff like this?  And that responding with sentiments like "You're just a bigot if you dislike the song" only alienates even further?

As one fellow said: "What a stupid little song by a bunch of {} people who are just looking for attention.  Ignore them and their song and proceed loving the gay and straight people in your life, and being tolerant as you always have been."

This is good advice.  

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I'd be curious to know how SMAC first learned about it.

It was on a video website (not particularly political AFAICS).  I just happened across it. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 8, 2021 by smac97

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It looks like the video was intended to provoke and offend.  And it seems to be working.

Meanwhile, Queerty published an article in 2011 entitled "Can We Please Just Start Admitting That We Do Actually Want To Indoctrinate Kids?"  I won't provide a link, as the content is not suitable for this site.  

And HuffPo published this in 2016: "I Have Come to Indoctrinate Your Children Into My LGBTQ Agenda (And I’m Not a Bit Sorry)"

Some of what these articles say is meritorious.  But they sure seem to be going out of their way to provoke and offend.

I am concerned that stuff like this, and the stuff in the OP, is divisive and ultimately undermines the "let's all get along" efforts that I think are worth pursuing.  As a fellow on Twitter put it: "I get that this is a joke, but it’s like frat houses I’ve seen with signs for freshers arriving on campus 'Fathers, kiss your virgin daughters goodbye'. It’s a joke, but it’s in terrible taste and does not win them any fans or sympathy."  Yep.

And another: "I hate when these creeps entitle things 'A message from the gay community'. No. Most of us are sane, and want nothing to do with this woketard madness. FFS stay away from people's kids. It's not clever or funny. It pisses everyone off."  Yep.

And others:

• "Disgusting.  I’m gay and I’m appalled."
• "Do they want to turn their progress back 50 years? Because that's how you get people to hate gays."
• "Well if THIS wouldnt want to make you hate a group of people I dont know what would!..."
• "They just destroyed decades of support."
• "Anybody else notice the double entendre of the line, 'We’re coming for your children?'"

I think there are a lot of people like me.  People who are trying to suss out a path that involves continuing religious devotion alongside also greater empathy, understanding and respect for our gay brothers and sisters.  But then stuff like this song comes along, which at once A) accuses anyone who doesn't think exactly like them of hatefulness and bigotry, and B) tauntingly states that they are "coming for {our} children." 

Holy cow.  Who was the intended audience for this song?  Who are they trying to persuade?  And persuade them to what idea(s)?

As one fellow said: "What a stupid little song by a bunch of stupid little people who are just looking for attention.  Ignore them and their song and proceed loving the gay and straight people in your life, and being tolerant as you always have been."

This is good advice.  

It was on a video website (not particularly political AFAICS).  I just happened across it. 

Thanks,

-Smac

What video website, and how did you come across it? It's not like we just walk by websites on the way to the forum.

[smac97]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

What video website, and how did you come across it?

Why do you care?  The video was posted on YouTube originally.  And its provenance is not in question.

Again, I just happened across it.  

I am not a fan of the far right.  Far from it, actually.  I am also not a fan of the far left (but I repeat myself).

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It's not like we just walk by websites on the way to the forum.

Actually, we do.  All the time.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 8, 2021 by smac97

[smac97]

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

Except we have seen SMAC start numerous posts designed to disparage the LGBT community.  

Well, no.  As I said previously: "I am concerned that stuff like this, and the stuff in the OP, is divisive and ultimately undermines the 'let's all get along' efforts that I think are worth pursuing."

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

Here he had a really great post idea that he thought he could gin up fear and disgust against the gay community.  

Again, no.  As I said previously: "I am concerned that stuff like this, and the stuff in the OP, is divisive and ultimately undermines the 'let's all get along' efforts that I think are worth pursuing."

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

He even had a pedophile in his back pocket to spring on the thread at just the right moment.  

Again, no.

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

He was so excited about that little nugget that he didn't even bother to check out to see if that was even accurate.  

Actually, I did.  

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

He even had some great online comments to post that were nasty and cutting that he could use to shore up his wobbly attack.  And just to insure his attack would bring out the worst of people on this board he left out the most important (and explanatory) line of the song:

WE'LL CONVERT YOUR CHILDREN...
WE'LL MAKE THEM TOLERANT AND FAIR.

Again, no.  I quoted, verbatim, those very lyrics in the OP.

"WE'RE COMING FOR THEM / WE'RE COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN / WE'RE COMING FOR THEM / WE'RE COMING FOR THEM / WE'RE COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN / FOR YOUR CHILDREN."  Yeesh.  Not only is this provocative of offensive, it also comes across as a double entendre.

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

What he found instead is more intelligent community that is not like the lynching right wing mob where he picked up this little attack.

I "found" this board in 2004.  I have a pretty good idea as to its participants.

Also, you are only proving my point.

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

A group of people that actually thought about what the song was saying and why.   He must be so disappointed.  

Not at all.  I post on this board precisely because there are people on it who disagree with me.  The board rules (which you are presently violating by personalizing this thread) are usually sufficient to keep discussions minimally civil and keep them from going too far off the rails.

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

And I am so proud of those posters on this forum that no longer put up with this kinda of crap.  

I could respond by imputing all sorts of terrible motives onto you, I guess.  But I won't.

54 minutes ago, california boy said:

If I am wrong, please,  just what was the purpose of starting this tread if not to sow fear and disgust against the LGBT community?

To express disagreement with the content and purpose of the song.  I've laid out some additional reasoning here.

No need to speculate about or impute motives.  I'm happy to tell you what I think and why.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 8, 2021 by smac97

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Smac97 is entitled to his own opinions and take on the matter, as you are, as I am, as anyone else is.  Speaking of rational approaches, you could try, you know, rhetoric, dialogue, logic, et cetera, in an effort to convince him he's mistaken instead of simply dismissing anything he has to say with an airy wave of the hand and a, "Meh!  He simply has a persecution complex."  Or, failing that, you could at least accord him credit for holding the opinions he does in good conscience and in good faith rather than imputing bad motives to him, even if you disagree with him.

Once you start accusing your opponents of being child molesters based on innuendo and internet lynch mobs, we’ve moved beyond the point where we have to assume good faith on his part. 

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Once you start accusing your opponents of being child molesters based on innuendo and internet lynch mobs,

I didn't do that.

And I have retracted and stand corrected on what I did do.

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

we’ve moved beyond the point where we have to assume good faith on his part. 

No worries.  You having publicly branded me your "least favorite poster," I would not expect such an assumption from you.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Except we have seen SMAC start numerous posts designed to disparage the LGBT community.

If defending people who (for just one of many possible examples) as a matter of conscience oppose being forced to employ their talents and artistry in service of causes with which they disagree constitutes "disparaging the LGBT community," then I suppose Smac97 is guilty as charged.  If you wish to dismiss him and his opinions with an airy wave of the hand and a, "Pffft!  There goes crazy Smac97 again, with yet another one of his posts designed to disparage the LGBT community," you're free to do so.  I think that, rather, by and large, Smac97 (whether one agrees or disagrees with him) is a careful thinker who weighs his opinions and how he expresses them much more carefully than such an airy dismissal would suggest.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 Here he had a really great post idea that he thought he could gin up fear and disgust against the gay community.

I don't think he's simply trying to "gin up fear and disgust against the [LGBTQ] community."  As an earlier post points out above, even some members of that community are concerned about how the song will be perceived (and, hence, about how it will be received) among people they profess to want as allies.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 He even had a pedophile in his back pocket to spring on the thread at just the right moment.

It's not as though no reasonable parent would be concerned about the "we're-coming-for-your-children" schtick (which, by the way [again] is why even some people in the LGBTQ community are concerned about the song).

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 He was so excited about that little nugget that he didn't even bother to check out to see if that was even accurate.

He made an error.  He acknowledged the error.  He edited the offending post(s) accordingly.  Perhaps some will not be satisfied until he commits hari-kari. Ah, well.  Some people object to my very existence, too. C'est la vie!

1 hour ago, california boy said:

He even had some great online comments to post that were nasty and cutting that he could use to shore up his wobbly attack.

Hmm.  You seem to present an interesting contradiction here: On the one hand, his posts include "great online comments" that are "nasty and cutting"; yet on the other hand, his "attack" is "wobbly."  I tend to not pay too much attention to someone who, allegedly (according to you), can mount nothing but "wobbly" (or, to use another word, "weak") attacks.  Might it be true of you, on the other hand, that, Methinks thou dost protest too much?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 And just to insure his attack would bring out the worst of people on this board he left out the most important (and explanatory) line of the song:

WE'LL CONVERT YOUR CHILDREN...
WE'LL MAKE THEM TOLERANT AND FAIR.

I'm glad that you're concerned enough about the song to see to it that the message that it is actually trying to convey doesn't get lost, but it would seem that the powers-that-be that are responsible for its production don't share that concern to the degree that you do, since even some members of the LGBTQ community are concerned about that message getting lost ... for the same reason that you say Smac97 lost it.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

What he found instead is more intelligent community that is not like the lynching right wing mob where he picked up this little attack.

Perhaps you would be better served focusing on the argument itself than where it came from, especially since (at least as I write this; keep in mind that this is a fast-moving thread and I will not yet have had a chance to review the posts that will appear between yours and mine) all we know is that it "is from a video Web site."

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 A group of people that actually thought about what the song was saying and why.

Given the fact that even some members of the LGBTQ community are concerned about it ... for the very reasons Smac97 is concerned about it, no less ... I don't think his opinion is as far out on the fringe as you suggest.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 He must be so disappointed.

If he needs a psychologist, he can hire one.  He needn't accept the assessment of one who is of the amateur armchair variety.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 And I am so proud of those posters on this forum that no longer put up with this kinda of crap.

Perhaps you should be at least a little bit more concerned that at least some others ... others who, like you, are members of the LGBTQ community, no less ... are worried that the tone of the song and some of its lyrics may lead to just the sort of assessment you dismiss as "crap."

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

If I am wrong, please,  just what was the purpose of starting this tread if not to sow fear and disgust against the LGBT community?

Asked and answered.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Once you start accusing your opponents of being child molesters based on innuendo and internet lynch mobs, we’ve moved beyond the point where we have to assume good faith on his part. 

If you don't want to impute good faith to your interlocutors, that's your business.  Smac97 acknowledged the misidentification and edited the offending post(s) accordingly.  And while I realize we differ on this score, not only does the fact that he acknowledged his error and edited the offending post(s) accordingly demonstrate that he is acting in good faith, his entire 20-plus-years posting history on this Board and its predecessors are good evidence of that, as well.  I recognize that your mileage varies.  To each, his or her own.  (Personally, I try to remember Matthew 7:1-2.)

Edited July 8, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I didn't do that.

Well after your post, Calm thought the guy was a child molestor. I wonder where she got that impression from? Must have just sort of sprung up from nowhere since you didn’t do that.
 

Must be nice to live where you do where you get to assume the worst of your opponents, but take no responsibility for your actions. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I am not outraged by it, but I think it was done with extremely poor taste and I have to wonder why they thought this would be a good thing.  We are talking about parents great desire to protect and teach children here.  While there are a couple of lines to try to redeem the song and I get that it is satire just the words come out as such an attack that it is no wonder people react the way we do.

I strongly feel we should be kind, but the words come out so strong just when I read them that I have to go through the process of what is meant by them each time I read them.  I mean I am strongly trying to see it from their point of view, but it comes out so vicious that even while doing that it is very difficult to do.

And seriously, there is such an edge and attack to it that it takes it past satire.

Yep.  From this article:

Quote

What these smart-a***s in San Francisco did was make a satirical song and video that would win them plaudits in their own circles by making fun of normies. They posted this online on July 1. My guess is that they began hearing back today from LGBT people outside of safe blue districts telling them that they are out of their damn minds. This is confirming the worst possible stereotype: the gays are targeting our kids. I say fantastic: the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus said the quiet part out loud. Sure, they say in the video that they’re talking about converting them into being “tolerant and fair,” but that is not at all how it will be received. And that, I’m sure, is why the fools took it down.

...

I’m still flabbergasted by how idiotic this was. These childless men apparently have no idea at all how most people feel about their children.

...

Reader CrossTieWalker:

Quote

 

The point is the hostility projected by this group of gay men toward parents with children. At this late date, most people with teenagers are probably under 50, that is, they were themselves brought up in a world already quite accepting of gay people. But the deal sealing that acceptance was that each side would strive to show the other that putative threats from their own side were overblown.

This performance punctures that peace deal.

Parents of troubled and confused teens do not need a gaggle of childless activists intruding and getting in the way of dealing with teen development issues, however things turn out with those teens sexually.

 

Yes. The contempt these men show towards parents who don’t think like them is at the heart of this. The taunting that says, whatever your religious beliefs, we are going to steal the hearts and minds of your children, and there is nothing you hicks can do to stop us. It gives the game away.

I have been giving a lot of time and thought to my perspective on these issues.  I have altered my position on some aspects, and have been working on more empathy, respect and understanding for our gay brothers and sisters.

And then I see stuff like this video.  Then I read commentary about it and find that I'm not the only one who thought it "confirm{s} the worst possible stereotype."

And then folks like California Boy and the ironically-named SeekingUnderstanding move heaven and earth to paint me as a bigot for viewing the video in a way I'm pretty sure it was intended: "making fun of normies."  Taunting people like me.  Gloating about subverting my role as parent vis-à-vis my children.

Defending this stuff and disparaging those who take exception to it is not the way to persuade people like me to your point of view, guys.  Just sayin'...

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

19 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If you don't want to impute good faith to your interlocutors, that's your business.  Smac97 acknowledged the misidentification and edited the offending post(s) accordingly.  

The entire purpose of this thread is to drum up sentiment against gay people. SMAC didn’t gain enough traction with his misread of a parody, so he went back to the 1980’s to quote some other “secret gay agenda” piece. That didn’t work so he went and sourced his work to the internet lynch mob and brought over accusations of pedophilia against those in the choir. 

ETA: and he only went back and edited the post once asked. He gets no credit for taking initiative there.

At what point can we stop pretending good faith and just accept the obvious?

If Smac used the same methods here, but instead posted as a church critic he’d be run off the board in two days being labeled an anti-Mormon provocateur. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

It isn't really anti-parenting.  The song is saying that no matter how much churches and parents try to teach fear and condemnation against the LGBT community, love and knowing gay people will counter those teachings and ultimately overcome those misguided teachings.  And that is exactly what is happening.  How many hearts and minds have been changed when people know employees, relatives, working colleagues, sons, daughters and friends. They discover all the right wing and religious efforts to portray fear and hate against LGBT community is just plain wrong and has no basis.

The Church found out for itself the more they try to marginalized those that are gay by banning there underaged children from being baptized and calling gay parents apostates, no longer works.  Many people ended up walking away from the Church rather than uphold those beliefs.  The younger generation are even more adamant about not belonging to such an organization.  And they are no longer willing to embrace parents teachings that reinforce that kind of stuff.

In the back of my mind, I wonder if these recent surveys that show a significant uptick in those that identify as LGBT (whatever that number actually is) is perhaps the younger generation saying to those taking the poll, we know what you are doing and today we are all LGBT.Kind of like Kennedy saying  "Ich bin ein Berliner! "

I can appreciate your perspective, I just see it a different way.

I like the idea of the song but the tactic--we will work at every turn to undermine you as a parent to ensure that our perspective wins the day--doesn't speak very highly of the cause to me.  

I don't see it creepy in a pedophile sense at all.  I just see it as incredibly disrespectful of the parent/child bond.  

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by bluebell

[LoudmouthMormon]

Hey everyone!

Y'all are discussing a video from the San Francisco Gay Mens Chorus, yes?

I wonder - do you believe there will be any further joint ventures between the SFGMC and the  Tabernacle Choir At Temple Square?

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by LoudmouthMormon

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Why do you care?  The video was posted on YouTube originally.  And its provenance is not in question.

Again, I just happened across it. 

She’s trying to understand your motivation here. It’s curious you won’t reveal your source…

[smac97]

19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Once you start accusing your opponents of being child molesters based on innuendo and internet lynch mobs, we’ve moved beyond the point where we have to assume good faith on his part. 

From this article:

Quote

Meanwhile, Andy Ngo (who is gay), reports:

Andy Ngô

 

@MrAndyNgo·13h

 

"We'll convert your children," the SF Gay Men's Chorus (@SFGMC) sings in a new video. "We're coming for your children." The song was written by

@RosserandSohne. Last year the duo apologized for writing music accused of endorsing Afghan child sex abuse.

From the BBC:

Quote

When it comes to theatre and filmmaking in the West, portrayals of Afghanistan often don't go beyond women in blue burqas and men carrying AK-47s.

But in 2017, two Americans attempted something unconventional. Lyricist Charlie Sohne and composer Tim Rosser created a musical about a subject even Afghans would consider too sensitive and unsettling - "bacha bazi" or "boy play".

Bacha bazi is a practice whereby wealthy, powerful older men buy and keep adolescent boys - known as dancing boys - for entertainment and sex. The boys are trained to dance seductively at male-only parties and often sexually abused.

The Boy Who Danced on Air told a love story between a 16-year-old boy, Paiman, and another young boy caught in the same bacha bazi practice.

...

Fast-forward to 2020, after the coronavirus pandemic forced theatres to close, and The Boy Who Danced on Air joined many other productions on online streaming services instead. But, unexpectedly, the move provoked a wave of outrage and criticism from Afghans living around the world, who, learning of the musical for the first time, accused it of romanticising child sexual abuse and child rape.

 

Madina Wardak, an Afghan clinical social worker based in the US, said she watched 40 minutes of the musical and had to turn it off.

"I felt uncomfortable, misunderstood, frantic and anxious all at the same time," she said. "I cringed every time the actors tried to be believable and every time the audience had a laugh at the expense of real Afghan pain."

The show has also faced criticism for promoting bacha bazi as a tradition that is accepted in Afghanistan.

"Bacha bazi is a harmful practice that should not in any way be romanticised," said the Afghan actress and founder of Mena Arts, Azita Ghanizada. "To have another piece of art focused on Afghanistan completely through the white lens shook up our community."

As the criticism spread on social media, Troy Iwata, the Japanese-American actor who plays Paiman in the musical, posted an apology on his Instagram account.

"A while ago I did a show where I played someone of Afghan descent, which I am not," he said. "The show romanticised sexual assault and misconstrued an entire culture and its people. I am so sorry."
...
"The writers poured gasoline and lit a match on many of the wounds we are working hard to heal," added Ms Ghanizada.

 

The Afghan LGBTQ community in particular has expressed discontent with the orientalist nature of the story and many have said the show harmed sexual assault survivors.

 

Dr Qais Munhazim, a queer Afghan scholar and Assistant Professor at Thomas Jefferson University said: "The musical is not only an orientalist depiction of Afghans as a whole, but it is also painfully damaging to the queer and trans Afghans. The musical wrongfully associates paedophilia with queerness.
...
When the show moved to online streaming, it became accessible to people around the world. And according to Wazina Zondon, a queer sexuality educator, it "triggered discussions of rape and child sexual assault that span across sexual and gender identity".
...
"As a queer Afghan, I understand my experiences raised in the West are different from the realities of those in Afghanistan. However, the narrative this musical is telling dismisses, erases and co-opts the experiences and stories of LGBTQI Afghans."
...
Following the outrage over their musical, the makers were quick to issue an apology to the Afghan diaspora...
...
After the consultation with members of the Afghan community, including Ms Azita, Dr Munhazim, Ms Zondon and Ms Wardak, Sohne and Rosser issued a second apology, this time deciding to take down the production along with Youtube videos from the show, ending the sale of the album and removing it from streaming services.
...

They apologised to the victims of bacha bazi who were disturbed by the show and the posts promoting it and said the practice was "illegal and brutal and abusive".

"We also now realise that it was not our place as privileged white writers to tell stories about communities that are already underrepresented and under attack in this country," their statement read.

In the BBC article above the 2017 Sohne/Rosser musical is described as "romanticizing child sexual abuse and child rape," and Dr. Munhazim states that it "wrongfully associates paedophilia with queerness."  I agree with Dr. Munhazim.  Pedophilia should not be equated with homosexuality.  All the more problematic, then, that Sohne/Rosser appeared to do that in 2017 (inadvertently, according to them), but then in 2021 they wrote a song intended to be sung by dozens of gay men with lyrics of "WE'RE COMING FOR THEM / WE'RE COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN / WE'RE COMING FOR THEM / WE'RE COMING FOR THEM / WE'RE COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN / FOR YOUR CHILDREN."

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

She’s trying to understand your motivation here.

I'm happy to explain my motivation.

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It’s curious you won’t reveal your source…

Again, it was posted on YouTube originally.  And its provenance is not in dispute.

It's curious that you are focusing on me rather than on the topic.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The entire purpose of this thread is to drum up sentiment against gay people.

It is not.  

25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

ETA: and he only went back and edited the post once asked. He gets no credit for taking initiative there.

I'm not expecting credit from you.  Ever.  

25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

At what point can we stop pretending good faith and just accept the obvious?

If Smac used the same methods here, but instead posted as a church critic he’d be run off the board in two days being labeled an anti-Mormon provocateur. 

And you continue to focus on me instead of the topic.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Smac97 is entitled to his own opinions and take on the matter, as you are, as I am, as anyone else is.  Speaking of rational approaches, you could try, you know, rhetoric, dialogue, logic, et cetera, in an effort to convince him he's mistaken instead of simply dismissing anything he has to say with an airy wave of the hand and a, "Meh!  He simply has a persecution complex."  Or, failing that, you could at least accord him credit for holding the opinions he does in good conscience and in good faith rather than imputing bad motives to him, even if you disagree with him.

My comments are based on long term observation of his posting.

 

By the way you may want to practice what you preach a bit.

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Quote

Quote

Once you start accusing your opponents of being child molesters based on innuendo and internet lynch mobs,

I didn't do that.

Well after your post, Calm thought the guy was a child molestor.

She thought, based on what I posted, that the "Earl Friedberg" referenced in the vid was the fellow on the registry.

As it turns out, I was mistaken.  

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I wonder where she got that impression from? Must have just sort of sprung up from nowhere since you didn’t do that.

I did not "accuse" "opponents of being child molesters."

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Must be nice to live where you do where you get to assume the worst of your opponents, but take no responsibility for your actions. 

I have taken responsibility for my actions.  I have retracted the comment and repeatedly acknowledged my error.

Must be nice to be able to read minds of people you've never met, and to know their motives better than they do.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can appreciate your perspective, I just see it a different way.

I like the idea of the song but the tactic--we will work at every turn to undermine you as a parent to ensure that our perspective wins the day--doesn't speak very highly of the cause to me.  

I don't see it creepy in a pedophile sense at all.  I just see it as incredibly disrespectful of the parent/child bond.  

 

Agreed, but I just see it as creepy period. I also understand it was probably meant to be taken as a light-hearted tongue-in cheek effort to get people to be a little more tolerant and understanding of their cause. But it sounds like they are saying if the parents don't teach this to their children they will do it, which is just wrong.