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Society's demand that women allow biological males in our spaces


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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MorningStar said:

. If they don't love that idea, then I kind of doubt their commitment to transitioning

Just an FYI, (I need to find that great article that summaries this so well I came across a few years ago to let it be expressed in their own words, but I don’t have a clue how to isolate it or where I saw it, so my apologies about the lack of documentation, may try to find some study instead), but not all transgenders want to transition, many don’t see the need…there are other changes in their lives that meet their needs while others are physically unable to do so and more don’t see the benefits outweighing the costs (tied to significant lifetime medical intervention) or can’t afford the time and financial costs.

Having said that, it would be so appropriate to slam those who are faking it with such a requirement, but if there is not a foolproof way to determine who is faking, it isn’t right to make that assumption (that a real transgender woman would accept surgery if offered) imo.

Then there is the guy (who viciously tortured two women, I have a really hard time seeing him, now her as human, let alone female) who self castrated. Now calls herself Sherri. Accusations of her assaulting other female prisoners are out there, so her claim her urges for violence were gone with the penis is doubtful.  I can also imagine this was a man filled with self hatred as well as hatred of women, the extreme transitioning might be more about masochism in that case and so the ‘test’ could be a failure for someone like him…but whatever the reasoning behind that I would label the behaviours anomalous enough that what he as a male did and as a female likely does should not be categorized anywhere close to how transgender women behave in general and likely unusual even for the subset of sexually offending transgender women. 
 

Just my mind wandering while avoiding thinking about tomorrow and my husband venturing into the dank Covid infested jungle that are our temples as I couldn’t persuade him not to…didn’t try very hard as feeling fatalistic about it…if not now, then in Fall.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I feel like Smac's satan cake thread was completely hijacked by a discussion about trans women (who haven't transitioned in any way) in women's spaces, so here's a separate thread. 

First of all, many of my favorite people are men and it makes me sad that their motives are often questioned due to the high number of ruiners. I have a friend who loves children and is devastated he and his wife couldn't have them after years of infertility treatments, tens of thousands of dollars spent, and failed adoption attempts too. He's the baby whisperer and quite a few people have made him an honorary uncle. At the same time, he knows that probably raises some eyebrows from suspicious people. :( Women can almost always hold people's babies without others thinking we're up to something. 

Anyway, when I talk about predators in this thread, I do not mean men and I am not bashing men. When I talk about predators, I do not mean transgender women. I mean predators. I feel like there is some defensiveness when the women here talk about our fears and also a perception that we're ganging up on people (men), but we are the ones who are directly affected by laws and policies, so we're going to get vocal and we don't appreciate having our concerns dismissed by people who are not women and don't understand what it's like to be a woman. 

Similarly, women don't understand what it's like to be a trans woman. It must be very difficult, but the argument is that they don't feel safe or comfortable using the men's restroom. Likewise, women don't feel safe or comfortable when an obvious biological male enters a location where we are vulnerable. Someone has to feel unsafe and uncomfortable and society has determined that biological women drew the short straw and that no amount of transition is even required for a person to claim that they feel like they're a woman. 

In the other thread, comments were made that fearing trans women using our restroom is the same as those decades ago who were afraid to use the same toilet as black people. That's a disgusting and dismissive comparison meant to shut us up and it only shows you don't know what it's like to be a woman.

When you give the green light for any man to claim he's a woman, it's inviting predators into areas where we are exposed or partially exposed. This is a pervert's dream come true. If a male predator (who doesn't really feel like he's a woman) waltzes into one of our restrooms or locker rooms, we now don't have the right to identity him as a pervert or question what he's doing there. The majority of the time, there is one way into a bathroom and one way out. When I go out in public with my daughters, we end up in separate stalls (no, not everywhere has a family bathroom) and I wouldn't take kindly to becoming aware that there is a peeping tom in the restroom while me and my daughters have our pants down. Gaps in the doors are sometimes large and you can even crawl under. 

Some locker rooms offer more privacy than others, but I have recently been to swimming pools where there are no private showers and the only place to change privately is a bathroom stall, which still has gaps in doors and a large space on the bottom. Plus perverts could just enter the neighboring stall, stand on the toilet and look at you. Or place hidden cameras. Many women and children change in the open and you know what we don't expect in there? Penises! Except for the small child variety. 

I have a loved one who is trans and being very unhappy with her previous male anatomy, there is no way she would've flaunted it in front of women and children. She also never ventured into a women's bathroom until she felt like she had made enough progress to not alarm others. She cares about how women feel and she went through the entire surgery and hormone therapy. She even polled others about how they felt about her using a women's bathroom. 

Women are not saying that transgender women are perverts. Some are just like some women are perverts too. The majority of random assaults are men violating women. You may have seen in the news that there was a big stink at a Korean spa that has a women's section, a co-ed section, and a men's section. One individual displayed their penis in front of children in the women's section. This is predatory behavior, but the upset women have now been called transphobes and that's ridiculous. I don't believe for a second that a real trans woman would do that without ill intentions. Another woman came out saying she had a similar experience last year when a person with a beard (and penis) got in the hot tub with her 6-year-old daughter. 

I won't even get started on the sue-happy, Canadian predator who has taken the act quite far and tries to force women to give him a Brazilian bikini wax on his man parts. If I named him, he would probably sue this board. Not even kidding. He has an obsession with feminine hygiene products and regularly claims to be menstruating. That's just the tip of the iceberg and trans groups can't stand him. He's just a predator - not the lesbian he claims to be. 

And regarding prisons, no people with penises should be in women's prisons. Yes, rape happens in men and women's prisons and that's horrible, but there should be zero opportunities to rape and impregnate others. I wonder how many biological women would prefer to be transferred to a men's prison? You would have to be insane. At the very least, men should be castrated before gaining access. If they don't love that idea, then I kind of doubt their commitment to transitioning. I would guess some of them are in prison for raping women and want to rape some more while not getting their butt kicked. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk about perverts and their opportunistic ways. We're another day closer to Jesus burning this place down! YAAAAAAAAAY!!! It's mostly a dumpster fire already between people making excuses for perverts and demands for Satan cakes. 

 

 

 

It makes no sense to me that a transgender woman ,who hasn’t (yet) had surgery, would go into a public, women-only public space and deliberately expose their penis. The transgender women I have known want to be accepted as female, and that’s not going to happen if you’re putting your male genitalia on deliberate, public display in such a space. So my first instinct would be that this person is not transgender, and instead is someone with nefarious intent. 

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Posted (edited)

How can the women and girls in the locker room or spa know if the person with the male parts is trans or faker?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How can the women and girls in the locker room or spa know if the person with the male parts is trans or fakers?

To complicate the matter further, there are hermaphrodites stuck in the middle of all this mess.  Which locker room should they go to?

Edited by pogi
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1 minute ago, pogi said:

To complicate the matter further, there are hermaphrodites stuck in the middle of all this mess.  Which locker room should they go to if no one wants to see the parts of the opposite gender?  

These is another situation completely and has nothing to do with transgender although this condition is often used to divert the topic. 

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13 minutes ago, juliann said:

These is another situation completely and has nothing to do with transgender although this condition is often used to divert the topic. 

I'm not trying to divert the topic and I think this is related in trying to find a solution to the problem of perverts faking it in locker rooms.  I am simply commenting that the reality of hermaphrodites complicates the solution.   There is not a black and white answer.  It is not as simple as separating the haves and have nots.  I am just suggesting that there are complicating factors to any solution to keeping out perverts.  

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19 hours ago, Calm said:

Just an FYI, (I need to find that great article that summaries this so well I came across a few years ago to let it be expressed in their own words, but I don’t have a clue how to isolate it or where I saw it, so my apologies about the lack of documentation, may try to find some study instead), but not all transgenders want to transition, many don’t see the need…there are other changes in their lives that meet their needs while others are physically unable to do so and more don’t see the benefits outweighing the costs (tied to significant lifetime medical intervention) or can’t afford the time and financial costs.

Having said that, it would be so appropriate to slam those who are faking it with such a requirement, but if there is not a foolproof way to determine who is faking, it isn’t right to make that assumption (that a real transgender woman would accept surgery if offered) imo.

Then there is the guy (who viciously tortured two women, I have a really hard time seeing him, now her as human, let alone female) who self castrated. Now calls herself Sherri. Accusations of her assaulting other female prisoners are out there, so her claim her urges for violence were gone with the penis is doubtful.  I can also imagine this was a man filled with self hatred as well as hatred of women, the extreme transitioning might be more about masochism in that case and so the ‘test’ could be a failure for someone like him…but whatever the reasoning behind that I would label the behaviours anomalous enough that what he as a male did and as a female likely does should not be categorized anywhere close to how transgender women behave in general and likely unusual even for the subset of sexually offending transgender women. 
 

Just my mind wandering while avoiding thinking about tomorrow and my husband venturing into the dank Covid infested jungle that are our temples as I couldn’t persuade him not to…didn’t try very hard as feeling fatalistic about it…if not now, then in Fall.

I have no idea what the answer is. In prison situations, my gut reaction is that violent offenders should be isolated from everyone, but I know with x amount of violent offenders, that's not practical. If they were convicted of assaulting women, they should have to stay with the men and if the men take issue with their identity, that's the way the cookie crumbles. Can't imagine how expensive it would be to create transgender prisons for a bunch of liars who just want to sexually assault women some more. 

In non-prison situations, we can't require people to prove they are transgender. I mean, they could change their names and sex on their ID, but you can't card people for entering a bathroom. One of my old piano students hid in a stall when a biological male entered the library bathroom and she was terrified to come out. :(  She was about 12 at the time. Her mom wondered what was taking her so long and found her very upset. 

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How can the women and girls in the locker room or spa know if the person with the male parts is trans or faker?

Exactly. We have no way of knowing except for the pervs who flaunt their genitals. 

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This.

92F0FDD8-1161-40F6-ABE5-2C40AF3A942E.jpeg

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Posted (edited)
On 7/6/2021 at 3:09 PM, Calm said:

Having said that, it would be so appropriate to slam those who are faking it with such a requirement, but if there is not a foolproof way to determine who is faking, it isn’t right to make that assumption (that a real transgender woman would accept surgery if offered) imo.

I don't think it is a matter of men "faking it."  I think a lot of MTF men experience Autogynophelia (AGP).  Keeping this PG: AGP is getting your engines revving by imagining yourself as a woman.  So for many of these men, they are living out a fetish.  From 2011 right before the transgender craze took off:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/#:~:text=Autogynephilia is defined as a,-female (MtF) transsexualism.

Quote

Autogynephilia resembles a sexual orientation in that it involves elements of idealization and attachment as well as erotic desire. Nearly 3% of men in Western countries may experience autogynephilia; its most severe manifestation, MtF transsexualism, is rare but increasing in prevalence. Some theorists and clinicians reject the transsexual typology and theory of motivation derived from autogynephilia; their objections suggest a need for additional research. The concept of autogynephilia can assist clinicians in understanding some otherwise puzzling manifestations of nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia exemplifies an unusual paraphilic category called 'erotic target identity inversions', in which men desire to impersonate or turn their bodies into facsimiles of the persons or things to which they are sexually attracted.

 

IMO, MTF men fall into two categories.  Those with AGP and those who suffer actual gender dysphoria.  For actual dysphoria, transition is a form of treatment and is usually undertaken with the guidance of a psychologist with a speciality in the area.  This is why self-ID as transgender is so dangerous to women.  It allows AGP men to act out while calling women are girls bigots for not wanting to see their fishing tackle.

And think about it.  Transgender people suffer gender dysphoria -- or at least they are supposed to.  Would someone who is dysphoric about gender *really* feel comfortable exposing their *male* parts in front of a bunch of females?  It makes no sense.  These men are misogonystic fetishists and they need to be stopped.

Edited by Ipod Touch
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9 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Exactly. We have no way of knowing except for the pervs who flaunt their genitals. 

This.

I have a few friends who suffer from gender dysphoria.  They would *never* go out of their way to expose themselves.  In fact, one of them still uses the male facilities.

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11 hours ago, juliann said:

These is another situation completely and has nothing to do with transgender although this condition is often used to divert the topic. 

AGP men have hijacked intersex people to impose their will on women and girls. To get a perspective on this from a radical feminist perspective, read a few posts here:

https://ovarit.com/

These are especially interesting:

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/25910/peak-trans-reprise-iv-tell-your-story-here

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The only time I ever felt compromised in a female-only facility was at a swimming pool dressing room. A woman was holding up her phone in an odd way, as if she was photographing me. I was nine months pregnant and wearing garments which might have been an extremely unusual sight.

My feeling about these types of spaces is that we mustn't depend upon gender of the group to keep people safe. There should be good measures in place to ensure privacy and safety. Like for example, toilet stalls should be well-made and without gaps that make glimpses of occupants possible even when the door is closed.

On the topic of men using the trans label to exploit these spaces, I think it's mostly fear-driven and not based in reality. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The only time I ever felt compromised in a female-only facility was at a swimming pool dressing room. A woman was holding up her phone in an odd way, as if she was photographing me. I was nine months pregnant and wearing garments which might have been an extremely unusual sight.

My feeling about these types of spaces is that we mustn't depend upon gender of the group to keep people safe. There should be good measures in place to ensure privacy and safety. Like for example, toilet stalls should be well-made and without gaps that make glimpses of occupants possible even when the door is closed.

On the topic of men using the trans label to exploit these spaces, I think it's mostly fear-driven and not based in reality. 

Wow. So women who fear male violence aren't capable of dealing with "reality." Why not jump right to hysterical or emotional? Does your assessment extend to fear of men if out alone at night? Fear of men dropping drugs in your drinks? Fear of date rape? Fear of unlocked doors? Fear of your child being in a restroom alone? The cautions about protecting ourselves are no longer necessary because male violence against women isn't based in reality? Yay! 

The fantasy that predators will stop at the door of any place that women and children congregate rather than see it as a hunting ground is close to delusional. 

*adding the obligatory clarification that transgender and predator are NOT synonyms. It is a male violence problem not a transgender problem. 

 

Edited by juliann
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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, juliann said:

Wow. So women who fear male violence aren't capable of dealing with "reality." Why not jump right to hysterical or emotional? Does your assessment extend to fear of men if out alone at night? Fear of men dropping drugs in your drinks? Fear of date rape? Fear of unlocked doors? Fear of your child being in a restroom alone? The cautions about protecting ourselves are no longer necessary because male violence against women isn't based in reality? Yay! 

The fantasy that predators will stop at the door of any place that women and children congregate rather than see it as a hunting ground is close to delusional. 

*adding the obligatory clarification that transgender and predator are NOT synonyms. It is a male violence problem not a transgender problem. 

 

Yes, not based in reality, more based on political polarization of trans rights: throw things at the wall until something sticks.

Unless you can show me some unusual spike of men posing as  trans women in order to go in women's restrooms to violate women.

So if it is based in reality, let's see something specifically related to elevated risks to women's safety due to trans women in female spaces. I'll wait.

Edited by Meadowchik
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7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes, not based in reality, more based on political polarization of trans rights: throw things at the wall until something sticks.

Unless you can show me some unusual spike of men posing as  trans women in order to go in women's restrooms to violate women.

So if it is based in reality, let's see something specifically related to elevated risks to women's safety due to trans women in female spaces. I'll wait.

Meadowchik, your wait is over: https://womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/kristi-hanna-human-rights-complaint-transgender-woman-toronto-shelter

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-court-judgement-that-confirms-women-pay-for-trans-rights

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There are a lot of problems in the world,. 

19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

On the topic of men using the trans label to exploit these spaces, I think it's mostly fear-driven and not based in reality. 

Transgender stuff and reality.  Two concepts that don't normally mesh well.  It is more like a Twilight Zone episode.

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19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The only time I ever felt compromised in a female-only facility was at a swimming pool dressing room. A woman was holding up her phone in an odd way, as if she was photographing me. I was nine months pregnant and wearing garments which might have been an extremely unusual sight.

My feeling about these types of spaces is that we mustn't depend upon gender of the group to keep people safe. There should be good measures in place to ensure privacy and safety. Like for example, toilet stalls should be well-made and without gaps that make glimpses of occupants possible even when the door is closed.

On the topic of men using the trans label to exploit these spaces, I think it's mostly fear-driven and not based in reality. 

Wow.  So at the end of the day you would rather be a handmaiden for fetishist men rather than protect women.  Why is it always the women's bathroom that is converted to "all gender."  Why is it that women and girls are the only people being asked to make a sacrifice here? 

Why should lesbians be guilted into having  sex with a man?  Why should lesbians be told that their sexual orientation is a mere "genital preference" and that they are bigots? Don't think this is real?  Don't think this this happens?  Google "cotton ceiling."  

Why should girls be forced to share intimate spaced with male genitals? What would you say to these poor girls in Wales who simply don't want *males* in their changing rooms and bathrooms?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

At least this post shows your true colors.  You come in here complaining about the misogyny in the Church but then when you have a real opportunity to actually stand up for women, you cower to men living a fetish.  It almost seems like you are just using feminism as a means of taking a dump on the LDS Church.  Not like you actually *are* a feminist or are willing to fight for the most basic tenets of what women have fought so hard for for over a centrury.

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8 hours ago, Vellichor said:

Meadowchik, your wait is over: https://womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

This does not appear to be a legitimate study, and it looks like the author, Paul Dirks, who is also the creator of the website, is a pastor and activist opposing a trans rights bill:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/paul-dirks-protest-bill-c-16-transgender-new-west-minster-1.4011156

Is Paul Dirks also a credentialed scientist? Is his study peer-reviewed?

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8 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

Wow.  So at the end of the day you would rather be a handmaiden for fetishist men rather than protect women.  Why is it always the women's bathroom that is converted to "all gender."  Why is it that women and girls are the only people being asked to make a sacrifice here? 

Why should lesbians be guilted into having  sex with a man?  Why should lesbians be told that their sexual orientation is a mere "genital preference" and that they are bigots? Don't think this is real?  Don't think this this happens?  Google "cotton ceiling."  

Why should girls be forced to share intimate spaced with male genitals? What would you say to these poor girls in Wales who simply don't want *males* in their changing rooms and bathrooms?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

At least this post shows your true colors.  You come in here complaining about the misogyny in the Church but then when you have a real opportunity to actually stand up for women, you cower to men living a fetish.  It almost seems like you are just using feminism as a means of taking a dump on the LDS Church.  Not like you actually *are* a feminist or are willing to fight for the most basic tenets of what women have fought so hard for for over a centrury.

Who are you calling "men living a fetish?"

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

This does not appear to be a legitimate study, and it looks like the author, Paul Dirks, who is also the creator of the website, is a pastor and activist opposing a trans rights bill:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/paul-dirks-protest-bill-c-16-transgender-new-west-minster-1.4011156

Is Paul Dirks also a credentialed scientist? Is his study peer-reviewed?

Ad hominem much? I don't know anything about Dirk, but he does represent the majority opinion, regardless of the loud minority voices. And since when do you have to be a scientist to analyze data? Seriously???? Dirk shockingly says, "Our campaign doesn't say trans-people are a risk to anybody, it's saying predators are going to take advantage."

You asked for data. You were given it. The ball is in your court. If you don't like the data anymore than you like pastors then counter it. And frankly, you have to be brain dead to think predators are going to get together and call Kings X on women's spaces.

Here is the raw data on Target assaults if you can't get past who presents it: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oju2lck3TJVFKTAm7neinY7-tq1fQfS3IhPOyvqq3Kw/edit#gid=302670011

Edited by juliann
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2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Ad hominem much? I don't know anything about Dirk, but he does represent the majority opinion, regardless of the loud minority voices. And since when do you have to be a scientist to analyze data? Seriously???? Dirk shockingly says, "Our campaign doesn't say trans-people are a risk to anybody, it's saying predators are going to take advantage."

You asked for data. You were given it. The ball is in your court. If you don't like the data anymore than you like pastors then counter it. And frankly, you have to be brain dead to think predators are going to get together and call Kings X on women's spaces.

Here is the raw data on Target assaults if you can't get past who presents it: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oju2lck3TJVFKTAm7neinY7-tq1fQfS3IhPOyvqq3Kw/edit#gid=302670011

It's not ad hominem to identify a person's potential bias and then ask for their qualifications.

He attempts scientific techniques to analyse the data, which require multidisciplinary competence to do correctly. 

So there's no "ball" in his study as of yet. It needs to be peer-reviewed by specialists in social science and applied mathematics or statistics.

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On 7/7/2021 at 9:07 PM, Ipod Touch said:

I don't think it is a matter of men "faking it."  I think a lot of MTF men experience Autogynophelia (AGP).  Keeping this PG: AGP is getting your engines revving by imagining yourself as a woman.  So for many of these men, they are living out a fetish.  From 2011 right before the transgender craze took off:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/#:~:text=Autogynephilia is defined as a,-female (MtF) transsexualism.

 

IMO, MTF men fall into two categories.  Those with AGP and those who suffer actual gender dysphoria.  For actual dysphoria, transition is a form of treatment and is usually undertaken with the guidance of a psychologist with a speciality in the area.  This is why self-ID as transgender is so dangerous to women.  It allows AGP men to act out while calling women are girls bigots for not wanting to see their fishing tackle.

And think about it.  Transgender people suffer gender dysphoria -- or at least they are supposed to.  Would someone who is dysphoric about gender *really* feel comfortable exposing their *male* parts in front of a bunch of females?  It makes no sense.  These men are misogonystic fetishists and they need to be stopped.

NB: I am not a newbie, I am a regular and long-term board member who has created this identity in order to contribute to this topic anonymously, because it involves behavior that only God knows about. Oddly, my usual identity here is anonymous anyway, so this secondary identity is just one layer deeper in anonymity? :) I won't be using this identity other than for this topic.

Before this post of yours, I had never heard of this autogynephilia thing. Upon reading it, I suddenly had an explanation for behavior I had exhibited briefly about the time I was coming into puberty! For that, I am happy to have it identified so that I can self-examine. I am not going to describe my particular behavior, other than to say that it can definitely be said to be autogynephilia (AGP). And it only lasted for a brief time that I can't accurately specify because it happened too long ago for me to be sure how long it lasted. I'd guess it lasted about six months, tops.

In connection with Morningstar's topic, I am not at all sure that AGP is truly involved. I am not a psychiatrist, and I only have myself and some literature to consult, but upon looking up AGP I find that there is plenty of disagreement in professional circles about AGP and its involvement in gender dysphoria. Or even what, if anything, should be done about it.

In the midst of my AGP "phase", I guess I will call it, I was never, ever confused about my own gender, nor did it ever enter into my mind to wish I were female. I am pretty sure I would have run screaming into the night if someone had offered to pay for gender reassignment therapy. I suppose that, as a sample of one, I am hardly equipped to extrapolate my experience and outlook to others, but I am going to suggest that if many men have experienced AGP, as you Ipod Touch have opined, and I will concede this may be possible, it doesn't mean that they are gender dysphoric. The male need to go on the hunt, as it were, and genital-centric as we can be, if we are confused due to the early hormonal onset of puberty (and boy howdy can we be!), due to the absence of appropriate targets (oh my, "erotic target location error"), imaging ourselves as female in the process of "engine revving" seems to be a reasonably rational fetish. 

And as for Morningstar's concerns, yeah, I can definitely understand them. I've never been a fighter, and for all my military experience I've never intentionally physically damaged another person, but by golly I sure want to beat the everlasting snot out of anyone who fraudulently claims to identify as a woman to go oggling (or worse) in women's changing/toilet facilities. If a man has a genuine problem with his gender, and genuinely transitions to female to solve his problem, no problem, peace out dude, but... 

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