InCognitus Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 The Called to Share channel on Youtube shared this video yesterday, and it does a great job of contrasting a clip from The Chosen with scenes from the First Vision: What Would You Do If God Did Something You Felt Contradicted the Bible? Most Latter-day Saints have encountered the attitudes portrayed in the video from people of other faiths. But I've also run into some very ridged interpretations of scripture from members of the church (and I'm not exempting myself from that assessment), which is why I altered the title of the video (from "Bible" to "Scriptures") when creating the title of this thread. What would you do if God did something that you felt contradicted your interpretations of the scriptures? I suppose the real question that always arises is, did God really do whatever it is that seems to be a contradiction? And how would we know? Any thoughts on this, or the video itself?
Duncan Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 I would go with God, he can circumvent the scriptures. If I had a vision I would do everything they tell me. 3
CV75 Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, InCognitus said: The Called to Share channel on Youtube shared this video yesterday, and it does a great job of contrasting a clip from The Chosen with scenes from the First Vision: What Would You Do If God Did Something You Felt Contradicted the Bible? Most Latter-day Saints have encountered the attitudes portrayed in the video from people of other faiths. But I've also run into some very ridged interpretations of scripture from members of the church (and I'm not exempting myself from that assessment), which is why I altered the title of the video (from "Bible" to "Scriptures") when creating the title of this thread. What would you do if God did something that you felt contradicted your interpretations of the scriptures? I suppose the real question that always arises is, did God really do whatever it is that seems to be a contradiction? And how would we know? Any thoughts on this, or the video itself? RE: "the real question" -- I think my first step is to identify what I consider with certitude to be things He has done for me, personally, in my own lifetime and then check this list against the scriptures to identify potential contradictions. 1
pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 51 minutes ago, InCognitus said: What would you do if God did something that you felt contradicted your interpretations of the scriptures? I suppose the real question that always arises is, did God really do whatever it is that seems to be a contradiction? And how would we know? The other question to ask is - is this really inspired scripture, and if so, is my interpretation correct? And "how would we know?" 2
smac97 Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 32 minutes ago, InCognitus said: The Called to Share channel on Youtube shared this video yesterday, and it does a great job of contrasting a clip from The Chosen with scenes from the First Vision: What Would You Do If God Did Something You Felt Contradicted the Bible? Most Latter-day Saints have encountered the attitudes portrayed in the video from people of other faiths. But I've also run into some very ridged interpretations of scripture from members of the church (and I'm not exempting myself from that assessment), which is why I altered the title of the video (from "Bible" to "Scriptures") when creating the title of this thread. What would you do if God did something that you felt contradicted your interpretations of the scriptures? I suppose the real question that always arises is, did God really do whatever it is that seems to be a contradiction? And how would we know? Any thoughts on this, or the video itself? A few thoughts: 1. I would write out my thoughts and concerns. Simply theorizing in my head about a purported contradiction between God doing something and passages in the Bible would not be sufficient. I would need to be more systematic and organized in my thinking / analysis / research / findings / conclusions. 2. I would give the matter some real thought, study, pondering, and prayer. I would visit, and re-visit, and re-visit again, my perspective on the scriptural passage(s). Am I being more exegetical or eisegetical in my understanding of them? Are there learned treatises/commentaries that may shed light on the meaning and significance of the passages in question? What have modern prophets and apostles said about the matter? Are there translation issues that may be pertinent? Presentism issues? How do the passages in question fit into a broader scriptural context? Is this issue significant enough to warrant further action and inquiry, or is it just a curiosity itch that I'm trying to scratch? Are the issues essential for my salvation? Are they within my stewardship to adjudicate? 3. I would, if appropriate and necessary, seek out guidance from trusted sources. My wife. My father. My brother. A few friends. Ecclesiastical leaders (maybe). 4. In all this I would keep in mind these passages: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20.) "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." (AoF 1:9.) "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill;' at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire...." (Joseph Smith) 5. The chances of me encountering a "Jews in the attic"-style conundrum, wherein I am forced to choose between obedience to the precepts of the Restored Gospel (including those in the Bible) versus my own informed and reasoned personal conscience, seem pretty darn remote. Thanks, -Smac 2
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 I would assume that going forward that, going forward, I am the exception to every scriptural rule and can do what I wish now without fear of divine disapproval. Come to think of it this is probably why it hasn’t happened yet.
Meadowchik Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 How would I know God is God and how would I know scripture is scripture?
Rain Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) The Book Mormon, in a couple of places, talks about the possible errors of the writers. We know that is the case with the bible. So I would assume that all other scriptures may have the same problem. So if God did something to contradict the scriptures then I would go with God. The harder part is knowing if that is really what God did. Edited June 30, 2021 by Rain 2
Popular Post pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Popular Post Posted June 30, 2021 26 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: How would I know God is God and how would I know scripture is scripture? How can you know anything with certainty in mortality? I like the pragmatic approach to truth (which happens to be outlined in Alma 32). Do what works. Plant the seed and see what happens. Does it bring growth and happiness? 5
Meadowchik Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 1 minute ago, pogi said: How can you know anything with certainty in mortality? I like the pragmatic approach to truth (which happens to be outlined in Alma 32). Do what works. Plant the seed and see what happens. Does it bring growth and happiness? I like the pragmatic approach, too. But I don't think it has an answer for identifying God. How would you envision that moment when you are able to pragmatically decide someone is God?
pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I like the pragmatic approach, too. But I don't think it has an answer for identifying God. How would you envision that moment when you are able to pragmatically decide someone is God? I suspect there will be some comforting familiarity in a reunion with daddy. A remembering of sorts. I suspect there will be undeniable spiritual fruit that you can partake of if he wants you to know, practically speaking. If God is not who or what I expect and have experienced my whole life, then he is going to have to convince me that he is God and that he is worthy of my worship. That might require some patience on His part. If he is a God worthy of my worship, that patience and teaching will be afforded. Otherwise, I am sticking with what works for me now. Edited June 30, 2021 by pogi 1
Meadowchik Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, pogi said: I suspect there will be some comforting familiarity in a reunion with daddy. A remembering of sorts. I suspect there will be undeniable spiritual fruit that you can partake of if he wants you to know, practically speaking. If God is not who or what I expect and have experienced my whole life, then he is going to have to convince me that he is God and that he is worthy of my worship. That might require some patience on His part. If he is a God worthy of my worship, that patience and teaching will be afforded. Otherwise, I am sticking with what works for me now. That's pretty much how I see it at first blush, but... There's what one would expect of God, as you describe, of something convincing. Yet there's another aspect, right? What proof would God expect us to accept? What standard, if there is one, must we follow to be able to say with due respect to God, to one who claims to be God, "Okay, you're God. What do you will?"
CV75 Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, pogi said: The other question to ask is - is this really inspired scripture, and if so, is my interpretation correct? And "how would we know?" I think that all you can go by is your best, good-faith assessment. Sometimes this involves prior experience and familiarity with the Spirit, sometimes a new experience that you can only conclude is with the Spirit, or apply Proverbs 3: 5-6. 1
pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: That's pretty much how I see it at first blush, but... There's what one would expect of God, as you describe, of something convincing. Yet there's another aspect, right? What proof would God expect us to accept? What standard, if there is one, must we follow to be able to say with due respect to God, to one who claims to be God, "Okay, you're God. What do you will?" That will be up to God to decide (assuming there is just one), and for me to accept or not, I guess. There is no way to know what a hypothetical God might offer as evidence that he is God, or what he might expect us to consider as acceptable proof. I know how my God works, and what he expects though. Anything else might require patience on His part as there will most certainly be a learning curve if it is different from my personal experience thus far. Edited June 30, 2021 by pogi 1
CV75 Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 32 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: That's pretty much how I see it at first blush, but... There's what one would expect of God, as you describe, of something convincing. Yet there's another aspect, right? What proof would God expect us to accept? What standard, if there is one, must we follow to be able to say with due respect to God, to one who claims to be God, "Okay, you're God. What do you will?" I don't think He expects us to accept proof, but to exercise faith. He provides evidence, but not proof. This evidence must be individually discerned, and if someone cannot, no harm / no foul. I think that all we can go by is our best, good-faith assessment. Sometimes this involves prior experience and familiarity with the Spirit, sometimes a new experience that we can only conclude is with the Spirit, or apply Proverbs 3: 5-6. 1
Meadowchik Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, pogi said: There is no way to know what a hypothetical God might offer as evidence that he is God, or what he might expect us to consider as acceptable proof. Right. 4 minutes ago, pogi said: I know how my God works, and what he expects though. Are you saying that you already used your pragmatic approach to ascertain the identity of your God? And/or are you saying that--by virtue of knowing how your God works--you know what values you expect from a God worthy of worship?
AtlanticMike Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: How would I know God is God Just pick an event in your past you know God wasn't pleased with and ask him to give you the details. Example, when I was a teenager we had a seminary scripture chase scheduled the same night as a Nine Inch Nails concert, so a couple of us went in the church and pulled the breakers to the HVAC system in hopes that they would cancel the scripture chase, it was winter and really cold. So, if I was talking to someone who said he was God, I would ask him what band I was going to see the night I pulled the breakers to the church HVAC. If he didn't know, I would turn around and walk away😁. 2
Meadowchik Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, CV75 said: I don't think He expects us to accept proof, but to exercise faith. He provides evidence, but not proof. This evidence must be individually discerned, and if someone cannot, no harm / no foul. I think that all we can go by is our best, good-faith assessment. Sometimes this involves prior experience and familiarity with the Spirit, sometimes a new experience that we can only conclude is with the Spirit, or apply Proverbs 3: 5-6. I agree with the importance of a good-faith assessment. In fact, to me, that's the extent of it. I am not convinced that a God worthy of worship requires belief in God. I think the attributes which would make a God worthy of worship are the priority. Otherwise it's just too easy for values to be supplanted by authority. So, it is values, and at least one's best faith estimate of them--which are hopefully continually being updated as we learn--which dominate. That's one reason I am an atheist, in good conscience. It's also one way I often feel kinship with religionists, when we share common values.
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: I like the pragmatic approach, too. But I don't think it has an answer for identifying God. How would you envision that moment when you are able to pragmatically decide someone is God? The first time God overwhelmed me with his presence all those years ago. I didn’t decide. I just knew. 2
Meadowchik Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: Just pick an event in your past you know God wasn't pleased with and ask him to give you the details. Example, when I was a teenager we had a seminary scripture chase scheduled the same night as a Nine Inch Nails concert, so a couple of us went in the church and pulled the breakers to the HVAC system in hopes that they would cancel the scripture chase, it was winter and really cold. So, if I was talking to someone who said he was God, I would ask him what band I was going to see the night I pulled the breakers to the church HVAC. If he didn't know, I would turn around and walk away😁. How would you know that they are God and not just some nosy advanced life-form, or just someone with good research skills? 😆 1
AtlanticMike Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: How would you know that they are God and not just some nosy advanced life-form, or just someone with good research skills? 😆 Ok, true. Do you have any funny looking birth marks or an extra nipple somewhere on your body? If he's your sky Daddy he should know about them, right?😂 Never hurts to ask!
The Nehor Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: Just pick an event in your past you know God wasn't pleased with and ask him to give you the details. Example, when I was a teenager we had a seminary scripture chase scheduled the same night as a Nine Inch Nails concert, so a couple of us went in the church and pulled the breakers to the HVAC system in hopes that they would cancel the scripture chase, it was winter and really cold. So, if I was talking to someone who said he was God, I would ask him what band I was going to see the night I pulled the breakers to the church HVAC. If he didn't know, I would turn around and walk away😁. If you repented though God might say he doesn’t remember. 42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. I am not entirely sure that is a sin though. At least I hope not. If going to every activity and scripture chase (yuck) is a requirement for exalted glory then yuck. 1
pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Are you saying that you already used your pragmatic approach to ascertain the identity of your God? And/or are you saying that--by virtue of knowing how your God works--you know what values you expect from a God worthy of worship? I'm saying that I am familiar with what my God expects of me. I have an experiential and pragmatic relationship with God, and don't know any other God or other way to speculate about. I suspect that I know very little about the identity and being of God and have a lot more to be revealed to me over time. I am familiar with the fruit that comes from his word and the growth and joy that I experience when I commune with Him in spirit. That is as good as it gets for me as far as truth and knowledge goes. 1
pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 31 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: Just pick an event in your past you know God wasn't pleased with and ask him to give you the details. Example, when I was a teenager we had a seminary scripture chase scheduled the same night as a Nine Inch Nails concert, so a couple of us went in the church and pulled the breakers to the HVAC system in hopes that they would cancel the scripture chase, it was winter and really cold. So, if I was talking to someone who said he was God, I would ask him what band I was going to see the night I pulled the breakers to the church HVAC. If he didn't know, I would turn around and walk away😁. Well...did you make it to the concert or not? Nine Inch Nails is a guilty pleasure of mine as well. 1
pogi Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 48 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: Just pick an event in your past you know God wasn't pleased with and ask him to give you the details. Example, when I was a teenager we had a seminary scripture chase scheduled the same night as a Nine Inch Nails concert, so a couple of us went in the church and pulled the breakers to the HVAC system in hopes that they would cancel the scripture chase, it was winter and really cold. So, if I was talking to someone who said he was God, I would ask him what band I was going to see the night I pulled the breakers to the church HVAC. If he didn't know, I would turn around and walk away😁. You never know, if God is not the God you expect, then he may have been VERY pleased with you pulling the breaker to get out of LDS seminary scripture chase. 1
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