One in five young adult mormons self-identify as gay/Lesbian/Bisexual

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Of course it is! You and I both know that personally.

Carving out exceptions by claiming that it is harder -- impossible, even -- for certain classes of people is a Trojan horse intended to, in the end, destroy the Church's ability to teach the importance of chastity for anyone. Ms Helfer is very much aware of how this all plays out if she and her fellow travellers are allowed to keep contradicting the Lord on this matter.

I don’t think it will have much impact at all. One more voice saying chastity is unrealistic is almost meaningless. History shows it is unrealistic to expect everyone to live it and a great deal of that occurred in an environment far less liberal on the matter than our culture is. The evidence is on their side but I still think it is worth trying. Some days anyways.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

History shows it is unrealistic to expect everyone to live it

Clarify please  how is it unrealistic?  I agree, but with a lot of qualifications, but want to see if my agreement is actually anywhere your opinion/claim.  (Me, it is unrealistic because not everyone has standards that teach chastity...it is illogical to assume someone who is taught sexual behaviour isn’t limited by marriage is likely to be able to suddenly control themselves fully within those limits.)

Edited June 22, 2021 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think it will have much impact at all. One more voice saying chastity is unrealistic is almost meaningless.

In the West, such voices have been with us since the Sexual Revolution, but dressing the message up as compassionate, welcoming, and loving is a novelty that has real potential for damage. I shared my mate's recent experiences specifically to indicate one way that this can play out. In the meantime, I fully expect to see the trends identified in the OP to continue. I hope that Calm is right and that this is one way to eventually get back to reality on this matter.

[Hamba Tuhan]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

Clarify please  how is it unrealistic?

Ascendant social discourses always obscure their genealogies, seeking to appear that they 'always already' existed. In this way, real and significant changes in behaviour are (re-)interpreted as merely increased access to data. One common example: things have always been like this, but people just hid it better. There is a pretty extensive academic literature deconstructing such arguments. The Sexual Revolution didn't just reveal what was going on: it changed behaviour and then presented those changes as 'normal'. (Which then further assisted in changing behaviour.)

This introduction to a recent series of articles on this topic gives a sense of what we know. For example:

Quote

Many individual characteristics and contextual factors influence young people’s behaviour delaying, accelerating, and more generally shaping the early phases of youths’ sexual lives (Billari et al., 2007; Caltabiano, Meggiolaro, & Tocchioni, 2018). Among these determinants, parental family, school, and religion are especially influential, as found in different countries and cultures (Burdette, Hill, & Myers, 2015; Cheshire, Kaestle, & Miyazaki, 2019; Guilamo-Ramos et al., 2012; Landor, Simons, Simons, Brody, & Gibbons, 2011; Pedersen, 2014; Poulin, 2011; Regnerus, 2005; Vivancos, Abubakar, Phillips-Howard, & Hunter, 2013; White & Warner, 2015; Widman, Choukas-Bradley, Noar, Nesi, & Garrett, 2016). Young people who adhere to the rules set by these traditional actors of socialisation usually delay the sexual debut, take less risky behaviours, and follow a more “traditional” path of entry into adult life.

And:

Quote

Indeed, the Catholic religion plays an important role in shaping the sexual behaviour of young people in other European countries: based on comparable survey data on Polish university students (waves 2001 and 2013), Wróblewska (2020) showed that religiosity is a relevant differentiating factor for the risk of first intercourse before the age of eighteen in Poland. She also found that religiosity acts as a significant predictor of sexual abstinence only if a young person regards religion as particularly important ...

And:

Quote

Third, the old-fashioned link between religion and the sexual behaviours of young people is still topical. This Thematic Series offers interesting insights for those contexts strongly characterised by the Catholic religion. Although adherence to (Catholic) religion still plays a protective role on the age of first sexual intercourse—stronger in Poland than in Italy—in both countries its importance is decreasing, and it is limited to young people who manifest an active adhesion to religion.

So no, the history of chastity across time and space is not consistent. Culture matters. Family matters. Messaging matters. Faith matters.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think it will have much impact at all. One more voice saying chastity is unrealistic is almost meaningless. History shows it is unrealistic to expect everyone to live it and a great deal of that occurred in an environment far less liberal on the matter than our culture is. The evidence is on their side but I still think it is worth trying. Some days anyways.

To those who desire the Telestial kingdom, the Law of Chastity is unrealistic and not necessary. They are right.  That is the beauty of the 3 kingdoms of glory.  We all obtain what we aspire and willing to limit ourselves to. 

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

One in five young adult Mormons in the US are gay, lesbian or bisexual

So far, GenZ Mormons look like Millennials in their sexual orientation, only more so, according to the largest dataset we've ever had about Latter-day Saints in America.

June 21, 2021

By 

Jana Riess

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With data analysis by Benjamin Knoll

More than a fifth of Generation Z Mormons do not self-identify as heterosexual, according to a major national study. One in ten are bisexual.

The Nationscape dataset, which canvassed more than 318,000 Americans on a rolling basis in 2019 and 2020, had 3,881 self-identified members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the survey. This makes it one of the largest studies of Mormons ever fielded in the United States.

One of the most valuable aspects of the data is what it can tell us about the basic demographics of the Mormon population, including gender, race, geography and sexual orientation.

Not surprisingly, there is more sexual diversity among younger Latter-day Saints than older ones. As shown below, while 94% of Boomers said they were heterosexual, just 77% of Generation Z did. (This analysis borrows Pew’s cutoff dates for the generations, which uses 1997 as the first birth year of GenZ. Only adult GenZers over the age of 18 were eligible for the study.)

So, 23% of GenZers who identify as LDS say they are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or other. And nearly as many (19%) of Millennials did as well. It’s notable that this finding is nearly double the 10% that Benjamin Knoll and I found among Millennials in the 2016 Next Mormons Survey (which broke down into 7% bisexual, 2% gay or lesbian, and 1% “other”).

Let’s unpack the Nationscape study’s finding of 23% a bit more. Within GenZ, the major outliers compared to other generations of Mormons were the categories of bisexual and “other.”

	GenZ Mormons (n=523)	Millennial Mormons (n=1362)	GenX Mormons (n=973)	Boomer/Silent Mormons(n=1023 combined)
Heterosexual/straight	77%	81%	89%	93%
Gay/lesbian	7%	8%	6%	2%
Bisexual	10%	5%	2%	2%
Prefer not to say	1%	4%	2%	2%
Other	4%	2%	1%	0%

 

We think three points are worth making here.

First, generationally, sexual diversity is high among GenZ Mormons because it’s high among GenZ as a whole. In terms of sexual orientation, Nationscape’s GenZ Mormons look a lot like non-Mormons their same age:

	GenZ Mormons	GenZ non-Mormons
Heterosexual	77%	77%
Gay/lesbian	8%	5%
Bisexual	10%	12%
Prefer not to say	1%	3%
Other	4%	3%

 

So GenZ Mormons, like their counterparts around the nation, are more likely to be queer. According to Pew’s recent study of GenZ, they seem more comfortable with gender fluidity and same-sex marriage than any other generation, though Millennials come close.

GenZers are also more likely to feel fine admitting their sexual orientation on a survey. Fewer than 1% chose the “prefer not to say” option in the Nationscape study, compared to 2%–4% of the members of older generations who did not want to answer the question. The atmosphere today for admitting a non-heterosexual identity is far more hospitable than it was even a decade ago, and many GenZers don’t personally remember a time when they could be fired from a job for being LGB+.

The second point is that GenZ Mormons currently show more sexual diversity than older generations of Latter-day Saints because, frankly, some of them are statistically likely to leave the Church but have not yet done so.

The GenZ respondents in the Nationscape study were 18 to 22 at the time of the survey. According to our own research in The Next Mormons, the median age for leaving the Church is around 19. In other words, there is still some settling and sorting yet to happen here. We are by no means saying that all of these queer-identifying young adult Mormons are going to exit the Church, of course—only that statistically, more will likely do so than their heterosexual peers.

It’s not surprising that it’s harder for queerfolk to stay. The Church has made a point for years of fighting same-sex marriage, condemning nontraditional families as “counterfeit,” and preventing Church members who are in a same-sex relationship from attending the temple, holding certain callings or exercising the priesthood. While there have been important steps toward compassion and understanding in the last few years, that damage still runs deep.

So the percentage of queer GenZ Mormons will probably not be as high as 23% in future studies. That won’t be because these people will have magically become heterosexual as they get older. It will be because they will have ceased to be Mormon, and will drop out of the pool of respondents who currently identify as members of the Church. As well, some heterosexuals will likely continue to switch in to the religion through conversion, possibly enough to change the ratio going forward.

Finally, one surprising aspect of the study is related to race and geography. Nationscape’s data suggests that among Mormons, some racial and ethnic minorities were more likely to also be sexual minorities.

Among all Americans, heterosexuality was 87% for Hispanics and 90% for Blacks, but among Mormons it was 71% for Hispanics and 74% for Blacks. It’s a statistically significant difference because the sample size is big enough that this isn’t just a random sampling error. Still, it’s not clear why Black and Hispanic Mormons exhibit more sexual diversity than their non-LDS counterparts.

Incidentally, the Nationscape study showed a double-digit difference between Mormons who lived in Utah (94% heterosexual) and those who did not (83% heterosexual). This echoes and widens a smaller four-point difference we found in the 2016 NMS regarding the sexual orientation of Mormons in Utah versus Mormons elsewhere.

We speculate that this is the result of self-selection, in that red-state Utah may just be a more challenging place for sexual minorities to live, at least outside of Salt Lake City.

https://religionnews.com/2021/06/21/one-in-five-young-adult-mormons-in-the-us-are-gay-lesbian-or-bisexual/?fbclid=IwAR1fwh1wJpeeG7krJGOYMm46ajAd-LecSw6mmsn7IRVHaAubBr_SS3eaSqY

————————-

Wow. Interesting and surprising article, and certainly food for thought as to how the above may affect the future of the church. 

The survey is interesting....I'm not sure the end assumptions will be entirely accurate. For one it's ignoring that the Millennial generation that has similar stats, with a couple so small in difference I'd assume the difference may not be statistically significant. Since millennials at this point firmly fall out of the average age of leaving, I would assume that there's more that's happen in the shuffling process of who will "stay" or at the very least ID as a member. This is also driven home by the fact that the stats I can find on the gen. pop. for LGBTQ identifying people show almost the exact same breakdown by generation. Not to say this won't be a factor....but I would assume that older generations of LDS would have a significant difference in percentages of straight members to queer ones in other generations compared to non-lds populations.

Because of this, there's likely more complexity in the interplay between sexual/gender identity and religious identity that this survey isn't fully getting at. For example the point of sexual fluidity is that sexual identity may also shift with age and experiences. Not in the way many assumed in older gens (ie. you could "choose") but more like an ebb and flow and shift. Some in the bi category especially may shift or reduce a sense of importance in their sexual identity, especially if say they end up with an opposite sex partner for life.  It also ignores the importance of multiple identities and how one ends up balancing all of those out. Some may end up with the common narrative of leaving after a bit. Others, again based on older gens and their similarity in identity to largely non-lds populations, may find other balances between activity and sexual expression that work for them. But either way, that info likely wouldn't be found without probably qualitative research or at least quantitative research that have questions focused more on these assumptions. 

 

Still, again, interesting survey.

With luv,

BD 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

.........................

3) Clearly we are dealing with a cultural phenomenon.........................

 

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

I think so too. Or are there really physiologically more gay people now than there were back in the 50s? Is it a matter of some kind of biological evolution happening that more people are born gay?
 

Nurture or nature?  Culture or biodestiny?  Both.  There can be little doubt that being gay or bisexual has become much more culturally chic.  However, it is also true that physiology plays a significant role:  Testosterone levels have taken a nose dive in young men worldwide.  https://www.urologytimes.com/view/testosterone-levels-show-steady-decrease-among-young-us-men  ;  one source attributes that to "modern, industrialized life," https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/men-have-less-testosterone-today?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 ,

Quote

...this study found that a 65-year-old man in 1987 had about 17 percent more testosterone than a 65- year-old man in 2004. This wasn't just limited to Americans either; a Danish study found similar results. Anecdotally, sex counselor Ian Kerner told CNN that he's noticed "an increasing number of young guys are complaining of sexual concerns, such as diminished libido and erectile problems, more commonly seen in older men."

Perhaps we should all be reading Aldous Huxley's Ape and Essence (1948), or William Golding, Lord of the Flies (1954).  I read them both back in the 1950s, and have never forgotten the deep discomfort I felt with the animal nature of the humans depicted in those novels.  Are we all doomed to be members of the common herd, or are we better than that?

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

William Golding, Lord of the Flies (1954).  I read them both back in the 1950s, and have never forgotten the deep discomfort I felt with the animal nature of the humans depicted in those novels.  Are we all doomed to be members of the common herd, or are we better than that?

I can’t remember if I came across this on this board or just wandering one night.  This would suggest we are “better than that”.
 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

[JAHS]

29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Testosterone levels have taken a nose dive in young men worldwide.

Here are some evidence-based ways to increase testosterone levels naturally.
Exercise and Lift Weights. 
Eat Protein, Fat and Carbs.
Minimize Stress and Cortisol Levels.
Get Some Sun or Take a Vitamin D Supplement. 
Take Vitamin and Mineral Supplements. 
Get Plenty of Restful, High-Quality Sleep.

There it is. Men don't work as hard physically as they used to.
They are under much more stress.
They don't go outside as much to get the sun light. 
They stay up too late at night and don't get enough sleep 

Edited June 22, 2021 by JAHS

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Clarify please  how is it unrealistic?  I agree, but with a lot of qualifications, but want to see if my agreement is actually anywhere your opinion/claim.  (Me, it is unrealistic because not everyone has standards that teach chastity...it is illogical to assume someone who is taught sexual behaviour isn’t limited by marriage is likely to be able to suddenly control themselves fully within those limits.)

It is unrealistic because a lot of people won’t. Even with cultural taboos and even with criminal punishments. Some historian did a study of court records in Victorian England. While most of the upper crust families may not have wanted it to be known what their children were up to a lot of them were inclined to sue everyone else for what they did with their daughter. I think the estimate was 1 in 4 to 1 in 3 marriages in the group were quasi-shotgun weddings.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In the West, such voices have been with us since the Sexual Revolution, but dressing the message up as compassionate, welcoming, and loving is a novelty that has real potential for damage. I shared my mate's recent experiences specifically to indicate one way that this can play out. In the meantime, I fully expect to see the trends identified in the OP to continue. I hope that Calm is right and that this is one way to eventually get back to reality on this matter.

I doubt it but sexual mores have shifted back and forth so much anything is possible.

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

To those who desire the Telestial kingdom, the Law of Chastity is unrealistic and not necessary. They are right.  That is the beauty of the 3 kingdoms of glory.  We all obtain what we aspire and willing to limit ourselves to. 

So he was right all along?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

To those who desire the Telestial kingdom, the Law of Chastity is unrealistic and not necessary. They are right.  That is the beauty of the 3 kingdoms of glory.  We all obtain what we aspire and willing to limit ourselves to. 

According to scripture, those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom will have repented of all their sins. There will be no unchastity of any kind in any kingdom of glory.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can’t remember if I came across this on this board or just wandering one night.  This would suggest we are “better than that”.
 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

Yes, I had read that, but couldn't recall where.  Thank you for lifting me out of "the slough of despond." 

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, JAHS said:

..................

There it is. Men don't work as hard physically as they used to.
They are under much more stress.
They don't go outside as much to get the sun light. 
They stay up too late at night and don't get enough sleep 

Male fragility.  Oh, I need a safe space . . . 

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

According to scripture, those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom will have repented of all their sins. There will be no unchastity of any kind in any kingdom of glory.

Yes but I was speaking pertaining to mortality.  Eventually all have to atone for this sins if they chose not to allow the saviors atonement do it for them.  But in our present condition, if one wants to ignore the law of chastity, that is fine.   They have a place in the eternities prepared for them after they have repented and atoned in the spirit world.

[mgy401]

Allies:  “Chastity is unnatural and a person who lives a lifetime without a satisfying sexual relationship has failed to reach the full degree of human potential.”

Also allies:  “LGBTQ Mormons who were clearly taught that you can have a happy and productive and meaningful life even while keeping the law of chastity, and rejected that notion in pursuit of a will-o’-the-wisp notion of sexual “authenticity” and fulfillment, are killing themselves?  OMG—must be the Church’s fault!!!”

The Church of the 1970s said some pretty rough things about gay folks.  But notably, suicide rates didn’t really explode until the early 2000s; when this idea that people who couldn’t get laid with impunity were consigned to a lifetime of frustration and misery went mainstream.  Maybe we should consider that the cure for what ails our society is less singing of “You’re nobody ‘til somebody loves you”, and more singing of “I am a child of God”?

Edited June 22, 2021 by mgy401

[Meadowchik]

15 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Wow. Interesting and surprising article, and certainly food for thought as to how the above may affect the future of the church. 

Certainly is. I would predict that more association with people who are openly not straight will lead to more church members caring about the church's treatment of them, and about their ability to participate in the church.

[Fair Dinkum]

13 hours ago, ksfisher said:

And lots of warm fuzzy feelings of schadenfreude for those members of the church in the anti prophet and apostle business.

I hope that this comment wasn't directed at me?  I'm pro church, prophet and apostles

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

According to scripture, those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom will have repented of all their sins. There will be no unchastity of any kind in any kingdom of glory.

Why not? Without the ability to procreate will it matter in the other kingdoms? I have no idea.

1 hour ago, mgy401 said:

Allies:  “Chastity is unnatural and a person who lives a lifetime without a satisfying sexual relationship has failed to reach the full degree of human potential.”

Also allies:  “LGBTQ Mormons who were clearly taught that you can have a happy and productive and meaningful life even while keeping the law of chastity, and rejected that notion in pursuit of a will-o’-the-wisp notion of sexual “authenticity” and fulfillment, are killing themselves?  OMG—must be the Church’s fault!!!”

The Church of the 1970s said some pretty rough things about gay folks.  But notably, suicide rates didn’t really explode until the early 2000s; when this idea that people who couldn’t get laid with impunity were consigned to a lifetime of frustration and misery went mainstream.  Maybe we should consider that the cure for what ails our society is less singing of “You’re nobody ‘til somebody loves you”, and more singing of “I am a child of God”?

True, but no one reaches the full degree of human potential. Well, there was one guy a few millennia back but he seems to have been a bit of an exception to the general rule.

Some of the suicides are the people who didn’t pursue said will-o-wisp philosophy and gave up on life before they gave up on chastity.

Suicides didn’t really ever explode. It has been going up but it is not that far off what the rate in the 1950s was. If someone committed suicide over homosexual attraction it is unlikely they announced it as much as they do now. Also suicide over unrequited love or a failure to find love is not some new development that popped up in the 2000s. It is practically its own literary genre through many cultures throughout history.

Edit to add some suicide statistics. Note also that pre-1980 suicide tracking was less robust so there is probably an under reporting element there. Of course there is still probably underreporting but it is probably less profound.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/187465/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-since-1950/

Edited June 22, 2021 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

I think there are true, no matter what people that know what gender they are, or what they are attracted to exactly. And then there are those that could choose to be bi or gay, either one. But weren't given the option growing up, especially with strong religious ties that teach against it and then those people are pretty much molded into that mindset, unless they are given the go ahead it's okay option. 

So that might be the reason there is an increase in the numbers. It's because it's become more acceptable in the world. 

[why me]

I have to wonder just what Heavenly Father has to say about all this. We seem to forget him when we need him the most. But will we listen to his voices. Maybe not, if it doesn't fit our world vision.

Edited June 22, 2021 by why me

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, JAHS said:

Here are some evidence-based ways to increase testosterone levels naturally.
Exercise and Lift Weights. 
Eat Protein, Fat and Carbs.
Minimize Stress and Cortisol Levels.
Get Some Sun or Take a Vitamin D Supplement. 
Take Vitamin and Mineral Supplements. 
Get Plenty of Restful, High-Quality Sleep.

There it is. Men don't work as hard physically as they used to.
They are under much more stress.
They don't go outside as much to get the sun light. 
They stay up too late at night and don't get enough sleep 

That sounds hard.

Isn't there just a pill I can take?

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why not?

For the exact same reason/s that there will be no envy or backbiting or gossip in the Telestial Kingdom, either.

As the Book of Mormon overtly teaches, one cannot be saved in sin, only from sin.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, why me said:

I have to wonder just what Heavenly Father has to say about all this. We seem to forget him when we need him the most. But will we listen to his voices. Maybe not, if it doesn't fit our world vision.

I've wondered about that too. You hear sometimes about people about to commit suicide or even do and they have this NDE or something that prevents it and they come back. Then you wonder about what happened to people that completed suicide and never came back, it seemed like to some people were God is indifferent, "yeah, it's okay he killed himself but she no way!!!!! i'll give her an option" Why did try to prevent this person and not that person? both used their agency in this manner and one it sent back and the other not?