Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 4

[smac97]

We have previously had a few discussions about DezNat:

September 2019: DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism?

December 2020: DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism? - Part 2

November 2020: Fair Mormon's new YouTube branding strategy

April 2020: Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3

Some potential good news on this issue in today's Salt Lake Tribune: 

Quote

Some #DezNat troops, fearful of being publicly outed, are retreating from digital LDS war

The creator of the hashtag and dozens of others have deleted their Twitter accounts.

By Peggy Fletcher Stack  | June 18, 2021, 6:00 a.m.

 

Possibly spooked by the prospect of being publicly identified, #DezNat creator J.P. Bellum, a self-appointed general in the online fight to support Jesus Christ and Latter-day Saint prophets, has deleted his Twitter account.

Perhaps.  Or maybe they are listening to their better angels.

Quote

In the past six weeks, an estimated 80 other #DezNat regulars seem to have likewise eliminated their accounts or moved them to a private setting, according to researchers. Others have erased the hashtag or wiped out past tweets.

This could signal the beginning of a digital war between #DezNat proponents and critics, with a few of the major users of the hashtag clearly in retreat.

I think this is a good thing.  I have previously been fairly critical of #DezNat.  I am glad to see my fellow Latter-day Saints apparently abandon it, both as a hashtag and an ideology.

Quote

Since its creation in August 2018, #DezNat, short for Deseret Nation, has enlisted loosely aligned ground troops to defend the doctrines and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Their battlefield has been the internet, where they hurl verbal attacks, some with violent overtones, and harsh memes from the safety of mostly anonymous accounts.

Starting in May, though, another account called DezNat Exposed (under the handle @ExposeDezNat), has reportedly outed two #DezNat users, including a current Latter-day Saint missionary. And the account is promising to reveal others’ identities.

Huh.  So perhaps not "better angels" after all.  Bummer.

Quote

“They need to be aware of how they defend the church,” says {Mary Ann Clements, a Latter-day Saint blogger who has analyzed the #DezNat movement}, who earlier discussed #DezNat on The Salt Lake Tribune’s “Mormon Land” podcast. “In their minds, they are stopping the liberalization and secularization of the church.”

 

Even if the majority aren’t “bigots, misogynists and racists,” she says, “they are creating an environment where bigotry, misogyny and racism are acceptable vices.”

Besides, if they are just defending the church, why worry about being known?

Yeah.  Online anonymity can incite all sorts of mischief.  I've seen similar problems amongst critics who are members of the Church and who hide behind pseudonyms (who "worry about being known").

Quote

Both sides in this Twitter skirmish maintain that anonymity is crucial to avoid being the subject of harassment and even violence.

Clearly, though, #DezNat users started it, by naming liberal Brigham Young University students and professors to get them kicked out of school or fired.

“When you start going after other people’s jobs,” Clements says, “how could you not think they would do it to you?”

Amy Chapman of Columbia University and Spencer Greenhalgh of the University of Kentucky have made an in-depth study of #DezNat tweets.

The researchers see a conflict between DezNatters’ fear of being exposed and their stated mission.

“If their purpose really was about shining a light on the true path, would the possibility of doxxing [being identified] be as scary?” Chapman asks. “Who would be afraid to be seen as a defender of the faith, if that is the only purpose of the hashtag?”

This is “a mirror of what happens to some people on the alt-right when people start calling attention to what they are doing,” Chapman says. “They hide.”

The Columbia researcher argues #DezNat users’ departure from social media amid fears of doxxing is “not related to their attempts to defend the church,” she says. “Rather, it is tied to the white nationalist and misogynistic undertones that frequent the hashtag, the presence of which #DezNat users discount.”

I think online anonymity tends to foment bad behavior.  On both sides.

Quote

As for the institutional church, it has emphasized that #DezNat is not affiliated with the faith in any way.

A spokesperson previously noted that leaders have urged “members — of all political views — to follow the example and teachings of Jesus Christ in treating others with respect, dignity and love. Anything that encourages or incites violence is contrary to the recent instruction given by church leaders.”

The faith’s General Handbook also counsels members on the internet to “exemplify civility...and focus on sharing praiseworthy messages that strengthen those with whom they come in contact.”

Good counsel, this.

Online interactions can get pretty heated.  All the more reason to periodically stop, reflect and revise behavior where appropriate.

Quote

Clements believes that may not be enough.

Unless Latter-day Saint leaders “speak out specifically against the hashtag, members will continue to use it,” she says. “DezNat folks see it as a successful rallying cry to defend the church and protect those who want to share gospel messages online.”

They don’t seem to believe, the blogger says, “that their actions have any negative effects on the church or its members.”

I dunno.  This sort of sounds like Clements wanting the Brethren to become her sockpuppet.  The Church has clearly and repeatedly called for civility, condemned racism, etc.

Overall a good development, I think.  

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Fether]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Thoughts?

I’m definitely not in the know here… I have never come across a DezNat nor read anything by them. I have only heard people talk about them. I was always under the impression that they were like 90% trolling and 10% hostile.

[longview]

This topic could closely be associated with the controversy of whether there was an actual violent "insurrection" in DC on January 6 and whether there were "false flag" operators.  Comparisons should be made of this event with many violent riotings around the country.  Chief among the questions is this - - - was Ashli Babbitt senselessly executed for the purpose of generating a false narrative?

[Dan McClellan]

1 hour ago, longview said:

This topic could closely be associated with the controversy of whether there was an actual violent "insurrection" in DC on January 6 and whether there were "false flag" operators.  Comparisons should be made of this event with many violent riotings around the country.  Chief among the questions is this - - - was Ashli Babbitt senselessly executed for the purpose of generating a false narrative?

Those aren't controversies, those are just lies, and profoundly idiotic ones, too. 

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, longview said:

This topic could closely be associated with the controversy of whether there was an actual violent "insurrection" in DC on January 6 and whether there were "false flag" operators.  Comparisons should be made of this event with many violent riotings around the country.  Chief among the questions is this - - - was Ashli Babbitt senselessly executed for the purpose of generating a false narrative?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, longview said:

Ashli Babbitt senselessly executed for the purpose of generating a false narrative?

She was executed because she was part of a violent mob breaking into a secure area with lawmakers present. It’s all on video, I’m surprised there can be any question 

[longview]

17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

She was executed because she was part of a violent mob breaking into a secure area with lawmakers present. It’s all on video, I’m surprised there can be any question 

I saw the video.  It looked like a casual cold-blooded killing.  There was no pressure on the shooter.  The crowd was very light and a mixed bag of different backgrounds.

[Calm]

Please be kind to the mods and not derail with politics...

[poptart]

I'm wondering how this'll play out, seen similar stuff here.  Something I think people aren't considering, if you want to play digital soldier you need to understand your whole life is an exploitable weakness, children/families included.  I suspect a lot of these people are used to the comforts and privilege middle/upper middle class life affords, those days are kinda gone now.  
I had mentioned stuff like this a few years ago and was brushed off, I told you......

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, longview said:

This topic could closely be associated with the controversy of whether there was an actual violent "insurrection" in DC on January 6 and whether there were "false flag" operators.  Comparisons should be made of this event with many violent riotings around the country.  Chief among the questions is this - - - was Ashli Babbitt senselessly executed for the purpose of generating a false narrative?

I understand how you'd like to compare the two. But what I see, the difference between them is that the ones that stormed the capital threatened the American way of life of voting and accepting who won the presidency. Once that's taken away then we're doomed, we become like some of the other countries out there, that have dictators. The lack of trust is diminishing our constitution. That's the big difference.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

We have previously had a few discussions about DezNat:

September 2019: DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism?

December 2020: DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism? - Part 2

November 2020: Fair Mormon's new YouTube branding strategy

April 2020: Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3

Some potential good news on this issue in today's Salt Lake Tribune: 

Perhaps.  Or maybe they are listening to their better angels.

I think this is a good thing.  I have previously been fairly critical of #DezNat.  I am glad to see my fellow Latter-day Saints apparently abandon it, both as a hashtag and an ideology.

Huh.  So perhaps not "better angels" after all.  Bummer.

Yeah.  Online anonymity can incite all sorts of mischief.  I've seen similar problems amongst critics who are members of the Church and who hide behind pseudonyms (who "worry about being known").

I think online anonymity tends to foment bad behavior.  On both sides.

Good counsel, this.

Online interactions can get pretty heated.  All the more reason to periodically stop, reflect and revise behavior where appropriate.

I dunno.  This sort of sounds like Clements wanting the Brethren to become her sockpuppet.  The Church has clearly and repeatedly called for civility, condemned racism, etc.

Overall a good development, I think.  

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

In defending the faith, anonymity is generally not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing when championing conservative values. We should not be like the execrable Antifa movement in that or in any other respect. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand how you'd like to compare the two. But what I see, the difference between them is that the ones that stormed the capital threatened the American way of life of voting and accepting who won the presidency. Once that's taken away then we're doomed, we become like some of the other countries out there, that have dictators. The lack of trust is diminishing our constitution. That's the big difference.

Precisely.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, longview said:

I saw the video.  It looked like a casual cold-blooded killing.  There was no pressure on the shooter.  The crowd was very light and a mixed bag of different backgrounds.

Yeh, just a bunch of typical tourists visiting the Capitol.  

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, longview said:

This topic could closely be associated with the controversy of whether there was an actual violent "insurrection" in DC on January 6 and whether there were "false flag" operators.  Comparisons should be made of this event with many violent riotings around the country.  Chief among the questions is this - - - was Ashli Babbitt senselessly executed for the purpose of generating a false narrative?

So was it false flag Antifa or false flag FBI? It seems the story changed again? The best rebuttal I heard was from a participant in several BLM protests:

”Yeah, we used make-up and costumes to age ourselves 30 years, padding and bulky clothing to add another 50 pounds, and about half of us were wearing whiteface.”

Best thing to come out of the attack on the capitol:

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, just a bunch of typical tourists visiting the Capitol.  

Only five fatalities and about a hundred injured? Pretty weak tour. I prefer to go on more exciting tours with a real body count.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

She was executed because she was part of a violent mob breaking into a secure area with lawmakers present. It’s all on video, I’m surprised there can be any question 

Yeah. They should have mowed down the whole lot of them with Uzzis for threatening our Democratic [oops] democratic way of life.  (Pardon the Freudian slip). 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah. They should have mowed down the whole lot of them with Uzzis for threatening our Democratic [oops] democratic way of life. 

They should have been prepared for an attack since the whole internet knew one was coming. It is not as if they haven’t done this. Compare the security on 1/6 to the BLM protest when you had fully kitted out riot cops lined up and ready. Instead the Capitol had less security than they had at the Library of Congress’s book festival. I have seen the pictures. The difference makes it clear it was deliberate.

I am sorry your feelings were hurt and the poor tourists weren’t able to murder Mitt Romney whose life was likely only saved by the quick actions of a USCP officer who drew off the mob. I am sorry they had to shoot the woman who was involved in smashing down the doors to Congress and was moving into a room filled with members of Congress who these tourists were chanting about killing moments before. It was just a lark though. Not the stuff coups are made of. An incompetent idiotic coup but a coup nonetheless. Oh wait, no, I am not sorry. They were right to shoot her. They were right to arrest all of these people and I have gotten many laughs reading the court documents as a guy who beat a cop half to day was complaining that jail was too harsh for him because the poor dear has a bad back and lawyers openly arguing their clients are morons (I especially laughed at the ‘short bus’ comment one made) who watch too much Fox and didn’t realize the magnitude of what they were doing.

If the GOP wants to be the party of supporting domestic terrorism that is fine. They have their agency. However they don’t get to choose the consequences of that action and I doubt they will like them. I doubt anyone will. This is a pattern that has played out many times. Hitler’s first coup was an utter flop. So was the ultranationalist Right wing movement that took over Japan. Both failed but they were treated with kid gloves and no one did much about it and they came back and took over later. We may see the same thing here. Then goodbye to American Experiment. It was fun while it lasted. May turn out that Americans can’t responsibly handle freedom. Go figure. At least all that talk about the Book of Mormon having lessons for our day is ringing more and more true.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

… a guy who beat a cop half to day [sic]…

Which cop are you referring to? Is it the one they said was hit with a fire extinguisher? I heard that report was debunked.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Which cop are you referring to? Is it the one they said was hit with a fire extinguisher? I heard that report was debunked?

This specific incident was debunked by the defendant who said he didn’t do it. Unfortunately the video says he did. So how can we ever know the truth?

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This specific incident was debunked by the defendant who said he didn’t do it. Unfortunately the video says he did. So how can we ever know the truth?

So was it the cop who false reports said was hit with a fire extinguisher but who later died in the hospital of a heart attack or something?

Added later: Never mind. Must have been separate incidents. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So was it the cop who false reports said was hit with a fire extinguisher but who later died in the hospital of a heart attack or something?

Added later: Never mind. Must have been separate incidents. 

No, different incident.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Only five fatalities and about a hundred injured? Pretty weak tour. I prefer to go on more exciting tours with a real body count.

Thunder Mountain at Disneyland?

[longview]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If the GOP wants to be the party of supporting domestic terrorism that is fine. They have their agency. However they don’t get to choose the consequences of that action and I doubt they will like them. I doubt anyone will. This is a pattern that has played out many times. Hitler’s first coup was an utter flop. So was the ultranationalist Right wing movement that took over Japan. Both failed but they were treated with kid gloves and no one did much about it and they came back and took over later. We may see the same thing here. Then goodbye to American Experiment. It was fun while it lasted. May turn out that Americans can’t responsibly handle freedom. Go figure. At least all that talk about the Book of Mormon having lessons for our day is ringing more and more true.

So you believe that the entire GOP are terrorists?  Talk about painting with a broad brush!  You have gone over the edge.

[carbon dioxide]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In defending the faith, anonymity is generally not a good thing. Nor is it a good thing when championing conservative values. We should not be like the execrable Antifa movement in that or in any other respect. 

It may not be a good thing, but in world today, it might be a necessary thing.  People get fired from their jobs for doing or saying things will not on the job.  Some people value their privacy as well.  They may have something to say regarding a topic but don't want to be bothered by friends and neighbors about an issue while outside the setting they originally gave their view. 

[carbon dioxide]

I understand that politics has its place of importance but I have seen too many church members place it to levels that it seems to be the most important. They value their political views more than friendships and perhaps church membership.  The Democrat and Republican parties are political parties of Babylon. Neither party cares about Zion and oppose many of the principles of Zion in their own way. When we understand this, perhaps we might not give as much emphasis to it.  Neither party is the party of God or the devil  Both parties will cease to exist at some point in the future.  Most of the issues the parties war about today will not be that important 10 or 20 years from now.  Too many members have things out of balance.  Politics is ok but when it starts affected family relationship, church friendships, saying that somebody is not a good church member because their political views are different,  it is time to walk away from politics for a while. If Jesus was an American citizen today,  I see nothing to persuade me that he would be a Democrat or a Republican. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by carbon dioxide