The church's billions in perspective.

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Having fun?

Quite a bit?  You?

It sure beats having something with substance in your life, doesn't it?

[Calm]

I have a friend who collects references and has a massive database and I asked him for any Catholic references, looks like he is either prone to collecting the more positive stuff or just hasn’t encountered much negative.  Hoping the formatting transfers. 
 

Quote

1866  “Two years later, in June 1866, [Roman Catholic] Rev. Edward Kelly from Sacramento visited Salt Lake City and administered the first Mass in the Old Tabernacle which Brigham Young placed at his disposal” (Thomas Edgar Lyon, Evangelical Protestant Missionary Activities in Mormon Dominated Areas:  1865-1900 University of Utah dissertation, 1962: 35; citing William R. Harris, The Catholic Church in Utah (Salt Lake City: Inter-Mountain Catholic Press, 1909): 284).

 

T. Edgar Lyon was the Church Education leader for some time, not sure of the years.

[NOTE:  John W. Taylor, Sunday service March 3, 1889, said “Is it necessary for the Latter-day Saints to be discourteous towards those who differ from them in religious matters, because they educate their children in the faith of the Gospel?  No. Father Walsh, the first Catholic priest who ever labored in Utah, was given permission to use the Seventies’ Hall for services for some months while he was trying to establish a church.  He was treated courteously, although we did not believe in his religion” (Deseret News 38 (1889): 325c.

 

1872 Washington Star, “Salt Lake City and Thereabouts”, Deseret News 21. 23 (Wednesday, July 10, 1872): 334ab.  “Then, again, the Mormons have been grossly misrepresented in the matter of alleged intolerance and proscription.  It is well known that preachers of all denominations can have the free use of the tabernacle,--a courtesy that how many of them stand ready to return?  When other doctrines are being preached in the city, the leader of the church does not hesitate to advise his people to go and hear for themselves, telling them he has no fear for the result.  But Mr. Young’s tolerance often assumes a more positive and creditable form than mere passivism.  He contributed gratis the lot upon which the lately erected Catholic church is built, and toward building the very handsome Episcopal church, which has been erected since my last visit, he  gave five hundred dollars in money” (334)

 

1873  John W. Young interviewed by New York Herald, August 13, 1873; reprinted in Millennial Star 35. 36, 37 (September 9 and 16, 1873): 565-567; 588-590.  “Do [these representatives of eastern churches] accept Mormon hospitality?’  ‘Certainly; they preach in our churches and accept favors of every kind from us and never give us any manner of credit for even the hospitality of the Arab.’ ‘Do they abuse your faith from your own pulpits?’  ‘No; that would not be tolerated.  They wait until they get home; then they do not spare the lash.  Large donations have been made by our Church toward the erection of houses of worship for other faiths.  I know that my father contributed toward the erection of the Catholic church.’” (589a)

 

1897 The very first issue of the Improvement Era in November 1897 had an article by Bishop Scanlan on the Catholic belief system.  It was the first of an ongoing series of articles introducing various religious denominations, written by adherents of those faiths 

(RELIGIOUS FAITHS.  I.  “The doctrine and claims of the Roman Catholic Church”, by Rt. Rev. Lawrence Scanlan, Bishop of Salt Lake City; Improvement Era 1.1 (November 1897; 2^nd article on Pope Leo XIII in 6.10 (August 1903)).  

 

1899 TRUE CHRISTIANITY.  Millennial Star 61 (1899): 408-9  A TRUE Christian spirit certainly possessed the pastor of a church in Bradley County, Tennessee, who kindly opened his church for the Elders and announced their meeting to his congregation as follows:….Reputable representatives of any faith are welcome to speak in the meeting houses of the Latter-day Saints.  It is only lately that Dr. Watson (Ian McLaren) of Liverpool occupied the Assembly Hall in Salt Lake City, and Rev. Mr. Moody the large Tabernacle; Gen. Booth of Salvation Army fame was accorded that same courtesy. Lately the Tabernacle has been occupied by Father Younan who gave a series of discourses on different phases of the Catholic faith.  (408).

 

1907 B.H. Roberts, in referring to the close friendship between Erastus Snow of the Twelve, and Bishop Lawrence Scanlan of the Roman Catholic Church, said: “That friendship should be an object lesson to all the people of our state, that it is possible, notwithstanding we hold different views… in relation to religion… to dwell together as fellow citizens of our common country, without enmity or bitterness.” Roberts, Conference Report(October 1907): 116-7

Added reference to 1866 comment

Edited June 18, 2021 by Calm

[Teancum]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Quite a bit?  You?

It sure beats having something with substance in your life, doesn't it?

 

 

Are you implying I don't have anything of substance in my life?

[Calm]

More early history from my friend:

http://www.icatholic.org/article/all-hallows-college-offered-a-catholic-education-in-8625430
 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2019/10/catholics-and-mormons-forged-ties-in-1800s.html

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh, this is so absurd!!

If they buy or build something they get flak for investing and then they get flak for money "just sitting there".

Mormonism one, for you who have not been taught church Doctrine, is that we are to become the "Stone cut without hands" which is to roll forth and fill the earth.

The goal is to build a nation state to cover the earth after the second coming

You think maybe that might take a few bucks?

And clearly the money is not sitting idle like we board members obviously are, posting the same lame opinions day and night.

It’s really amazing to me how so many of the naysayers on this board just can’t seem to grasp the idea that it’s unavoidable that vast amounts of capital will be required in order to successfully build and sustain the literal kingdom of God on earth. This refusal to allow the obvious facts pertaining to the establishment of Zion to sink into their craniums clearly indicates that their gripes stem from the belief that the Church isn’t true; and they were fair minded and decent about this subject they’d acknowledge if the Church is indeed true, and if the prophesies scripture pertaining to the establishment of Zion in the last days are going to literally be fulfilled, the need for the Church to accumulate a tremendous amount of financial reserves would be understood as being eminently reasonable, perfectly justifiable and absolutely necessary. I’m wondering if these would-be destroyers of faith and testimony realize that if there’s any agreement with them by believers on this matter that it would be tantamount to an admission on believer’s part that the Church and its scriptures are not true?

[Teancum]

18 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s really amazing to me how so many of the naysayers on this board just can’t seem to grasp the idea that it’s unavoidable that vast amounts of capital will be required in order to successfully build and sustain the literal kingdom of God on earth. This refusal to allow the obvious facts pertaining to the establishment of Zion to sink into their craniums clearly indicates that their gripes stem from the belief that the Church isn’t true; and they were fair minded and decent about this subject they’d acknowledge if the Church is indeed true, and if the prophesies scripture pertaining to the establishment of Zion in the last days are going to literally be fulfilled, the need for the Church to accumulate a tremendous amount of financial reserves would be understood as being eminently reasonable, perfectly justifiable and absolutely necessary. I’m wondering if these would-be destroyers of faith and testimony realize that if there’s any agreement with them by believers on this matter that it would be tantamount to an admission on believer’s part that the Church and its scriptures are not true?

Its not true.  See we are trying to help ya all out.😏

 

But in all seriousness, we really don't know what use money will be if the Church really is building this massive kingdom now do we.  And what you describe sure seems contrary to the Jesus of the New Testament.  Powerful churches have been accumulating massive amounts of wealth on the backs of their members for a long long time. So nothing really new.  I will hand it to the LDS church.  Those managing the assets have done a phenomenal job. It has to be one of the most wealthy churches around especially when you add in the real estate. And it is even more amazing based on its size. If it is really to build the Kingdom of God on earth it is setting itself up well.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Teancum

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

 

 

Are you implying I don't have anything of substance in my life?

Read the context. I included myself. No personal offence intended

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

See?

A new recruit!

Quite a team of 4!

You should start a band!

JW and the 3T's!

I love it! 
 

But who’s the third T?

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Amulek said:

Exactly! And do you honestly think, even for one minute, that - had the church done differently - those same critics which have been complaining about the bailout wouldn't now be whining about the church having dumped the whole mess on everyone else instead?  

 

Not a bit. They are as predictable as night following day. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Not angry one bit. You need to stop projecting.

Like you do with your fanciful supposition that Church members don’t demand “transparency” because they don’t want to look like they’re criticizing as opposed to having enough trust in their leaders that it’s simply not a thing that occupies their thoughts? 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why the passive agression?

You two are quite a team, with the same tactics, but he is much better at it.

This an interesting observation, and for the sake of tying it to the scriptures, could possibly be rooted in an unfortunate misunderstanding/misapplication 3 Nephi 11:28-30 and Mosiah 2.

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Like you do with your fanciful supposition that Church members don’t demand “transparency” because they don’t want to look like they’re criticizing as opposed to having enough trust in their leaders that it’s simply not a thing that occupies their thoughts? 

The same thing came up in another thread, referencing President Oak's talk about the his feelings concerning the priesthood ban and loyalty to the brethren.

I do not think President Oaks was advocating loyalty for loyalty's sake but to honor 3 Nephi 11: 28 - 30, which can come across to others as loyalty to the brethren (see 12:1, "give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you"). It is interesting to me that the brethren are chosen from "among" us and so are not so different from us as to warrant an "us" and "them" attitude. We treat them in a spirit of unity because they are one of us, and we should view all children of God in the same light. We are fortunate to have the Restored Gospel.

[Teancum]

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Like you do with your fanciful supposition that Church members don’t demand “transparency” because they don’t want to look like they’re criticizing as opposed to having enough trust in their leaders that it’s simply not a thing that occupies their thoughts? 

Well see Scott I understand the LDS Church and the follow the brethren attitude quite well.  I have lived it as much as you in my life. I know the culture and what is taught. And we do have a current member of the FP who said it is never right to criticize the church leaders.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well see Scott I understand the LDS Church and the follow the brethren attitude quite well.  I have lived it as much as you in my life. I know the culture and what is taught. And we do have a current member of the FP who said it is never right to criticize the church leaders.

Please share that reference -- thank you.

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Please share that reference -- thank you.

But, you see, if he did that, we might look it up and read it in context, and that would dull his point. 

[The Nehor]

If anyone is unhappy with the way the church is using money I recommend you not donate any money to it.

If you feel the need to give money away I can take it and use it to buy shoes for orphans or something. There will be a few personal expenses involved but those are pretty minimal.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Please share that reference -- thank you.

 

[Teancum]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But, you see, if he did that, we might look it up and read it in context, and that would dull his point. 

 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 

Why memes and not the actual talk?  Just curious as to your choice as I assume it is easier to find a talk than a meme, but perhaps I am wrong. 

[Teancum]

Just now, Calm said:

Why memes and not the actual talk?  Just curious as to your choice as I assume it is easier to find a talk than a meme, but perhaps I am wrong. 

It just came up quickly.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/02/criticism?lang=eng

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 

So your references are cherry-picked from cherry-=picked memes? What do you have to say from the 1987 talk and the 1991 book? Did you read them? What kind of criticism is he talking about (I spotted it in 2 seconds after seeing the link to the May 1986 talk)?

Edited June 19, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It just came up quickly.

Ha-ha when memes like these are the first things that come up quickly in someone's search, that says a lot about the searcher's bias.

Can you tell us what the article says about the kind of criticism is being discussed?

Edited June 19, 2021 by CV75

[Glenn101]

13 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well, the argument could be made that members are fearful of looking like they are criticizing church leaders simple by asking for more financial transparency.  I mean, look at our little experiment in this thread; such notions have been given SUCH a warm welcome.

Maybe the "argument" should be changed to suggestion since there is no way of reading people's minds.

[Harry T. Clark]

22 hours ago, JAHS said:

Well they have a team of independent auditors and professional financial team who are watching things all the time to make sure nothing is going wrong. I kind of doubt that the regular member is going to be able to understand and interpret all the details of the finances.  I have looked at the church finances that are disclosed for other countries that require it and find it difficult to make sense out of it. 
And they are putting some of it to good use helping to solve some problems. They are not a charity; they are a religion that participates in charitable causes. 
Here is a list of things in the news that they did just during the month of May:
* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints distributes 20,000 pounds of food to nonprofits
* Church donations aiding UNICEF’s role in global effort to provide 2 billion COVID-19 vaccinations
* Church donates 8,000 toys and books for migrant children at Long Beach Convention Center
* Church Donation Helping to Feed Refugees Settling in Houston
* The Church Donates Oxygen, Medical Supplies and Food to Support Brazil During COVID-19
* The Church Donates Over US$4 Million to Help Bring Oxygen and COVID-19 Relief to India

Every month is like that. And that is only things that are actually reported in the news.

Perhaps so, but there are experienced accountants and auditors that would understand the disclosures and would then be able to explain it to the regular members. 

Maybe this is one of the places where there needs to be a change?  I have a friend who doesn't do so that much any more as I think he moved on, but, a few years ago he would periodically ask me to tell him where the fallible prophets were making mistakes and showing their fallibility.  He wanted to show how we tend to only give lip-service to how our leaders are fallible.  They are and perhaps disclosure is a wrong path taken that needs to be corrected.

[carbon dioxide]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:43 AM, jkwilliams said:

I don't begrudge the church making sure it's solvent, but yeah, that's a heck of a lot of money just sitting there.

Most of it is not cash.  It is stocks and other things and much of it can evaporate in a market downturn.  If there is a market crash, you want to be way up before the crash so that after the crash you still have more than enough to endure the hard times.  Giving a lot away now might sound good but post crash you might be in a lot of trouble.