Tools of the devil

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

But I had brought a six-pack of Dr. Pepper, and I chugged down a couple of cans of that (had already had one can for "breakfast").

Next time  , use it to barter for food.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think suicide should be included in the statistics you shared. There sure is a lot of that among LDS. 

  Please review how to talk about suicide to avoid careless remarks that may increase risk by normalizing killing yourself.

https://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations-2nd-edition.pdf

Edited June 12, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

So, you guys really believe coffee and beer are the tools of the devil?  I mean, literally?

Sorry for the double post, couldn't figure out how to combine posts.

Edited June 12, 2021 by poptart

[poptart]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

  Please review how to talk about suicide to avoid careless remarks that may increase risk by normalizing killing yourself.

https://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations-2nd-edition.pdf

suicide and mental health is that bad with the Lds population?

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, poptart said:

suicide and mental health is that bad with the Lds population?

No, we generally do pretty good, though definitely not perfect and have some concerning areas.  if you want statistics, I can give you some later to show where we do better and where we do worse (one category got posted above)but carelessness in discussing suicide is present on the board at times and I try to remind others to be careful in order to improve here and elsewhere.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, we generally do pretty good, though definitely not perfect and have some concerning areas.  if you want statistics, I can give you some later to show where we do better and where we do worse (one category got posted above)but carelessness in discussing suicide is present on the board at times and I try to remind others to be careful in order to improve here and elsewhere.

Wish people would be more careful, there are so many mentally ill people out there.  All it takes is one bad day, a push in the wrong direction....

[jkwilliams]

28 minutes ago, poptart said:

So, you guys really believe coffee and beer are the tools of the devil?  I mean, literally?

Sorry for the double post, couldn't figure out how to combine posts.

They’re gateway drugs. 😂

Most LDS I know don’t consider them tools of the devil, per se, just substances God has told us not to ingest. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I didn't like it as much as Pepsi (the king of colas, btw), but didn't find it all that bad. DIdn't make a habit of using it, though.

I can imagine. Orange water, huh? Yikes!

I was in Germany in the early 70's, and practically nobody drank water out of the tap. That was only for cooking and cleaning. I don't know if that was because of immediate post-war difficulties in obtaining clean water or some other reason, but nobody seemed to trust their water utilities. When us American missionaries asked for a drink of water, meaning out of the tap, we got looks of horror. Bottled water was big business there. In the early 80s, after I got married to a German lady (in the US) and then the Army sent us to Germany, I happened to get stationed in the town my mother-in-law lived in. So I stayed with her for 2 months instead of living in the barracks until my family arrived. She was getting deliveries of bottled water and it was apparently still de rigeur to drink only bottled water. It seemed like there were a hundred different "vintages" of bottled water. 

We have a lot of immigrants here in LA and so there are "water" stores everywhere. That's all they sell!

They run the tap water through a filter and then sell it as if it is "bottled water " at relatively expensive prices.  The newbies have no idea that tap water is safe as is

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Over on the social Hall there's a thread talking about the Word of Wisdom, is it a commandant or not. And the past few days I've been asking myself is the WoW a commandment or just advice for Mormons to follow and show dedication to the Lord and his teachings. 

    When I was young, my siblings,  Mormon cousins and Mormon  friends were taught that the devil had certain tools he used to tempt us and if he was able to persuade us to partake of what he was offering, we would be under his power of influence and be living a life of sin. I'll admit, it scared the crap out of me. 

    Up to my late twenties I believed 100% that coffee, tea, tobacco, caffeinated soda and especially any kind of alcohol were tools of the devil. Partaking of any of these substances was giving in to the power of the devil and his minions. Now looking back, I realize I was using these substances to harshly judge anyone who used them in their daily life, I automatically saw anyone who used them as sinners and under the devil's influence.

     I can remember the day my eyes were opened and I started viewing "sin" in a different light. Just after I was married, the bishop asked me to go on a camping trip and be a chaperone for a young man whose dad was out to sea in the Navy. There was 12 of us on the camping trip, the bishop and a young man he was looking after, two days with two sons each, one dad with his son and me with the young man I was looking after. At around 10 pm three of the boys walked to the bathroom that was probably 300 yards away. The bishop and I were sitting at the fire talking when all of a sudden he looks at me and says, do you see that?!?!  We're staring in the direction of the boys walking back and every few seconds we could a little tiny orange glow that went out after about a second. And then all of a sudden, the bishop realized the glow was a cigarette, and it as if the devil and his minions were tunneling up from hell and trying to swallow up the three boys walking back from the bathroom. 

    When the boys get close, they immediately gather around the fire throwing wood on it, stirring the coals and trying to get as much smoke as possible I guess to cover up the smell of the cigarettes. Well, the bishop pulls me and the boy I was chaperoning aside with the father of the other two boys who were smoking and starts to grill the 3 young men asking who was actually smoking. The young man I was chaperoning handed over a pack of cigarettes and apologized to the bishop and the other dad for bringing cigarettes on the camping trip. A few minutes later the bishop  told me to take the young man home and he would deal with the situation later. This was the first time in my life I actually looked at any man in the church who had authority and said, NO, I'm not taking him home, he misses his dad dearly and I'm not going help you ruin this young man's camping trip. I walked over to the tent we went to sleep and the next morning even though things were a little tense, nothing else was said. From that day, I have taught myself how not to judge people so harshly because of something they might be doing that I consider a "sin".

     What's weird, for some reason, me standing up to the bishop started my path of always having a calling in scouts. The bishop was a good man, I think he realized he was a little too upset over the cigarette incident and was glad I calmed him down by just saying no, calm down man. He and I had a wonderful relationship after that. 

   So, in your opinion, what are actual tools of the devil and have we along with other Christian denominations misunderstood some of the Lord's teachings over the years since his mortal ministry?

You clearly made the right call on that issue, and you certainly helped that bishop be a better man.  On occasion I have had to take a stand or ask a question, only to find that others who were more timid came up to me later and thanked me.

Among Jews, I have occasionally run across someone who had an ancestor who took a vow a couple of generation earlier -- a vow which was promised to last for a certain number of generations:  A deal made with the Lord, that, if you will protect me in this situation, I and my descendents will not eat fish for 7 generations.  That may sound silly to someone not from the orthodox Jewish world, but they take it very seriously.  Same applies to Nazirite vows not to drink alcohol nor to cut one's hair.  They are sacred vows.  Jesus drank wine, and so did Joseph Smith, and the Word of Wisdom was originally only meant as advisement.  Today it has become a kind of Nazirite vow for the entire LDS Church.  Access to the temple is denied to those who cannot abide by its rules (whatever they are supposed to be).

Edited June 13, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, poptart said:

Wish people would be more careful, there are so many mentally ill people out there.  All it takes is one bad day, a push in the wrong direction....

Since we are discussing being careful...it is not “all it takes”, but I agree with the sentiment behind the phrase...just not the phrase...we need to be careful to not add to the complex of causes, the overall vulnerability of the individual.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

So, you guys really believe coffee and beer are the tools of the devil?  I mean, literally?

Sorry for the double post, couldn't figure out how to combine posts.

The Word of Wisdom suggests that there are some jerks out there using them to harm people. Tools of the devil might be a bit of a stretch.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

So, you guys really believe coffee and beer are the tools of the devil?  I mean, literally?

Sorry for the double post, couldn't figure out how to combine posts.

I think they can be considered as such "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days," otherwise they can be used for good, or are simply plant byproducts sitting on a shelf (like a lot of Bibles).

Edited June 13, 2021 by CV75

[AtlanticMike]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

control over their biological and emotional response

The more I interact with people who have had a hard life because of drugs and alcohol,  the more I understand I'll never figure out why some people can get over the urge to keep using while some never do. I think genetically some people are more susceptible to addiction. But I also think a lot of people use drugs for emotional reasons because so many people are living on the edge, literally one day at a time because they can't handle anything beyond that. So many people live in fear of the future and drugs are a "distraction" from reality. It hurts my heart to see people in pain like so many live on a daily basis.

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

and you certainly helped that bishop be a better man

I've known him forever, he's helped me a 100 times more than I've ever helped him. He and I got along great when dealing with the young men over the years. 

[Kenngo1969]

10 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I would say looking through the lense of Mormonism, this is only partially true, aren't we taught that we will be punished for our own sins, and not the transgressions of others.

I'm punished for my own sins if I have a free choice whether to sin or to live righteously, and I choose to sin.  If addiction takes away my opportunity to make a free choice whether to sin or to live righteously, then the person or persons responsible for my addiction must bear at least some of the responsibility both for my loss of agency and for the poor choices I make as a result.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Isn’t it a greed a sin, especially if they are willing to harm others to profit?

But if you mean the addicted also share in responsibility, I would agree they do to the point they understood it was harmful for them when they begun to use the product and to the point they have any control over their biological and emotional response, which varies by individual and over time I a guessing.

Around 50 years ago, the President's Council on Drug Abuse declared that alcohol was the most dangerous drug in America, and we read regularly about entire families wiped out by DUI drivers heedless of anything other than their own addiction.  The cost of excessive alcohol use in the U.S. was almost a quarter trillion dollars in 2010.  Excessive alcohol use is known to kill more than 95,000 people in the United States each year (2010).  in 2018, more than half of the US adult population drank alcohol in the past 30 days. About 16% of the adult population reported binge drinking, and 7% reported heavy drinking.  Utah has the lowest cost per capita from drinking.  https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/data-stats.htm .  Nearly every film made by Hollywood features heavy drinking by the male and female leads.

We had 49,860 opioid overdose deaths in 2019 out of a total of 70,630 general drug overdose deaths for 2019 (many more than we lost in the ten year Vietnam War).  The so-called "War on Drugs" in America, which has been going on for the last half-century, has been a total failure.  Yet no one in politics or law enforcement is willing to admit that failure.  Nor are they willing to admit that Mexico is now run by the Drug cartels.

The simple truth is that one should not use drugs, and that includes marijuana, nicotine, and alcohol.  Young people need to be told on no uncertain terms what awaits them when they exercise poor judgment -- premature death and general unhappiness..

[Kenngo1969]

13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

The more I interact with people who have had a hard life because of drugs and alcohol,  the more I understand I'll never figure out why some people can get over the urge to keep using while some never do. ...

And therein lies a key to the answer to the question you asked me about whether we are responsible for our own sins: Again, my answer is, "To the extent that we were free to make a choice, yes, we are responsible for our own sins."  However, if another person's intervention, through manufacturing the drug that I use and selling me the drug that I use, takes away my freedom to make a choice by facilitating my addiction to their product, then, at least to a certain extent, they become responsible even for my sins.

[AtlanticMike]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

So, you guys really believe coffee and beer are the tools of the devil?  I mean, literally?

I don't anymore but growing up I sure did. Also cussing, I had a couple cousins that said "oh my god" all the time, and I knew for sure they were going to hell. I've had to work hard over the years to not judge. I finally realized, my judging, was probably 10 times worse than what they were doing. Once I figured that out, made life more enjoyable because I could accept people for who they are at that very moment and not worry about what I thought God might want them to be.

[AtlanticMike]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

at least to a certain extent, they become responsible even for my sins.

You know, I'm actually going to think about that for awhile, you might have a point.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I've known him forever, he's helped me a 100 times more than I've ever helped him. He and I got along great when dealing with the young men over the years. 

CTR?  That bishop respects you because he knows that you won't cave when faced with moral-ethical choices, and that is crucial when dealing with young men.

[strappinglad]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Coca-Cola was the only safe thing to drink

Besides, it tamped down the amebic dissentary . 😰

[AtlanticMike]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

CTR?  That bishop respects you because he knows that you won't cave when faced with moral-ethical choices, and that is crucial when dealing with young men.

Thank you Robert! But it wasn't always fun sometimes he let me have it. I think I've already told this story on here but I'll tell it again because it's funny and the same bishop was involved.

    On one of our bigger camping trips, I think there were like 15 boys that went and I had the great idea to take a couple chickens and right before dinner I let them loose and had the boys chase them and of course kill them so we could eat them for dinner. At the time it seemed like a great idea, I mean, I butcher chickens all the time. But after dropping the boys off in the church parking lot Saturday night after camping,  about 3 hours or so later the bishop called me and said all's he's been doing for the past hour is talking to irate, pissed off mom's that couldn't believe their precious little boys killed chickens for dinner 😂😂. I tell you what, that Sunday at church I had some mad mom's come up to me and give me an earful, man!! I remained calm and just kept saying, yes ma'am yes ma'am, it will never happen again. All the while, inside, I was laughing my butt off😁. That bishop was mad for a while, he got over it though.

[juliann]

15 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

 

   So, in your opinion, what are actual tools of the devil and have we along with other Christian denominations misunderstood some of the Lord's teachings over the years since his mortal ministry?

Chocolate..

[Kenngo1969]

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

Chocolate..

Bless me, Mother, for I have sinned.  It's been a week since my last confession ... (And you can expect to see me here in the confessional on a regular basis ...)  

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you Robert! But it wasn't always fun sometimes he let me have it. I think I've already told this story on here but I'll tell it again because it's funny and the same bishop was involved.

    On one of our bigger camping trips, I think there were like 15 boys that went and I had the great idea to take a couple chickens and right before dinner I let them loose and had the boys chase them and of course kill them so we could eat them for dinner. At the time it seemed like a great idea, I mean, I butcher chickens all the time. But after dropping the boys off in the church parking lot Saturday night after camping,  about 3 hours or so later the bishop called me and said all's he's been doing for the past hour is talking to irate, pissed off mom's that couldn't believe their precious little boys killed chickens for dinner 😂😂. I tell you what, that Sunday at church I had some mad mom's come up to me and give me an earful, man!! I remained calm and just kept saying, yes ma'am yes ma'am, it will never happen again. All the while, inside, I was laughing my butt off😁. That bishop was mad for a while, he got over it though.

Yeh.  City kids grow up in a very different world:  I was the eldest, so Dad would have me carry the hatchet when he and I went to the chicken coop behind our house to select a couple of hens.  He quickly lopped off the heads of the two, and then we took them to Mom waiting at the back door with a galvanized tub of hot water.  She had them plucked and in the oven in no time.  Made it look easy.

I would watch when Dad and a neighbor would butcher a deer.  We ate lots of venison back in those days, and Mom knew just how to prepare it.  City slickers just don't get it.

Where do all those nice moms imagine their meat comes from?  LDS meat packing plants have professional butchers on the killing floors waiting for the next shipment of live cows.  The meat is processed by volunteers and distributed free to those in need.