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Deacons passing the sacrament and other non doctrinal practices


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9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You're certainly correct. Over the centuries English has shed a large number of grammatical features that other languages still have in abundance. Such as multiple grammatical noun cases.  All we have left are nominative, genitive and accusative, and even they are getting rather flattened out. 

The usage of "begging the question" is not a grammatical feature, however, and it actually originates from a mistaken translation from the Greek, by way of Latin! 

The phrase begging the question originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which itself was a mistranslation of the Greek τὸ ἐξ ἀρχῆς for "assuming the conclusion". Which is what begging the question is understood to mean -- it's a logical fallacy.

So, in a sense it needs to go away, because it originates from a double mistake, and is confusing. Which is why it is so commonly misused. But what will we use for "assume the conclusion" if it goes away? "Assume the conclusion," probably. But it won't sound quite so hoity-toity, and sometime hoity-toitiness is fun to have.

How about “circular reasoning?”


“When the fallacy of begging the question is committed in more than one step, some authors dub it circulus in probando (reasoning in a circle)[9][16] or, more commonly, circular reasoning.”

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 8:52 AM, Amulek said:

Don't forget that anything which needs to be designated as an "Other Member Financed Activity" has to be paid in person as well (e.g., Girls Camp, Christmas Aid, etc.).

 

You can put it under any of the sections online and then make a note to have it moved to where it should go.  When we had our YW fundraiser this was how they had me do it.

 

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On 6/11/2021 at 4:13 PM, JLHPROF said:

So as far as Deacons and passing sacrament it's definitely policy.  Doctrine is that Deacons can't administer sacrament.  It's not an authority of the office.

The question is if passing to people is administering. Policy says it's not, but doctrine is less clear.  It's an interpretation of doctrine that allows it.

I think the doctrine is clear. Administering must be done by a priest or elder. Since deacons pass the sacrament, passing is not part of administering the sacrament. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 8:49 AM, bluebell said:

Interpreted by whom?  Is that how it is interpreted in the D&C?

I suspect that this is just one of those polices that has been done for a very long time and the brethren are now pondering and seeking revelation. the first presidency determine how doctrine is interpreted and put into practice, but we need to distinguish between doctrine and how doctrine is applied at any given time. The policy manual currently dictates that only a priesthood holder can prepare and pass the sacrament but policy changes as the brethren are made aware of doctrinal incongruities. 

I am quite confident that this current interpretation is discussed and taken to God. when God sees fit, he will allow the church to make adjustments. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 9:19 AM, marineland said:

Do you believe 3 Nephi 18:5-9 excludes the people in the crowd from passing the bread
and the wine?

I do not believe this passage refers in any way to passing the bread and wine. It does not indicate in anyway how the sacrament got distributed, likely because it did not occur to the author that this mattered. We have imposed passing onto the ordinance but this action was likely never part of the ordinance.  

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On 6/12/2021 at 3:51 PM, JAHS said:
On 6/12/2021 at 3:18 PM, Calm said:

I am not asking about the first part, but your reasoning for this comment:

Quote

 

there needs to be something for the deacons to do to get them involved in priesthood ordinances early on...

Expand  

I guess I'm just saying, giving them  a priesthood duty to perform and making them responsible for that duty trains them for when
they are older and responsible for more priesthood duties and responsibilities as they grow in the Gospel. They learn and progress  "line upon line".

 

According to the CHurch Handbook the deacon:

Passes the sacrament.

He is “appointed to watch over the church” (Doctrine and Covenants 84:111). He is also to “warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:59). This responsibility includes fellowshipping quorum members and other young men, notifying members of Church meetings, speaking in meetings, sharing the gospel, and bearing testimony.

He assists the bishop in “administering … temporal things” (Doctrine and Covenants 107:68). This responsibility may include gathering fast offerings, caring for the poor and needy, caring for the meetinghouse and grounds, and serving as a messenger for the bishop in Church meetings.

He assists the bishopric in other ways consistent with the office of a deacon. He also assists teachers “in all [their] duties in the church … if occasion requires” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:57).

When you consider the other things a deacon is supposed to do I think it is quite obvious that some of those tasks had adults in mind and not 12 year old boys when the D&C scriptures came out in the early days of the church. However they specifically  do not state they they have to be adults and so the leaders have been inspired to allow boys to be ordained deacons and perform this duty. I think we are nit picking when we try to decide whether it is doctrine or not. If it comes from the prophet we have to assume it comes from God, otherwise there would be no order in the church.

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5 hours ago, Freedom said:

I think the doctrine is clear. Administering must be done by a priest or elder. Since deacons pass the sacrament, passing is not part of administering the sacrament. 

That's a matter of policy, not doctrine.  There is no doctrine whatsoever that allows Deacons to participate in an ordinance.

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20 hours ago, Rain said:

You can put it under any of the sections online and then make a note to have it moved to where it should go.  When we had our YW fundraiser this was how they had me do it.

This is one of those times where I really wish there was a way to up-vote something more than once. :clapping:

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