Deacons passing the sacrament and other non doctrinal practices

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

The youth will lead the way. 

The Prophet will lead the way.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Freedom said:

so the priest breaks and blesses it and gives it unto the people, such as a 12 year old girl, who passes it around for all to eat and drink. There is nothing in the passage that says it must be a priesthood holder who caries a tray, or for that matter that it must be a priesthood holder who 'should give unto the multitude'. 

3 Nephi 20

Quote

3 And it came to pass that he brake bread again and blessed it, and gave to the disciples to eat.
4 And when they had eaten he commanded them that they should break bread, and give unto the multitude.
5 And when they had given unto the multitude he also gave them wine to drink, and commanded them that they should give unto the multitude.

 

[rockpond]

President Nelson has continually moved the Church toward an increased level of gender equality.  Note:  Gender equality may not have been his, or the Lord's, primary motivation with the changes but it has been a byproduct.

I've long believed that he might be the one to make the (policy) change allowing YW to participate in preparing/passing the sacrament since doctrine doesn't require it be performed by priesthood holders.

While I'm at it, I also think we could see women standing in the circle for blessings.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Goes along with saying we must take the sacrament with the right hand or even when someone must raise their right hand under oath. Seems like it's more tradition and it might have to be changed for wards that have more women than men or in very small remote places. 

There is deep symbolism in using the right hand.  Given the symbolism in the sacrament, it is not a reach for me to imagine using the right hand to receive it when possible is part of that ritual.  But that reasoning could be used to add on many other practices, so not suggesting that should be the sole justification. 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Peacefully said:

The youth will lead the way. 

 

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Prophet will lead the way.

When the youth becomes prophets, they will lead the way.  

[Bernard Gui]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

When the youth becomes prophets, they will lead the way.  

I can hardly wait. 

[Bernard Gui]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is deep symbolism in using the right hand.  Given the symbolism in the sacrament, it is not a reach for me to imagine using the right hand to receive it when possible is part of that ritual.  But that reasoning could be used to add on many other practices, so not suggesting that should be the sole justification. 

Temple ordinances, too.
Who is on the right side of the Father?

Edited June 10, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

President Nelson has continually moved the Church toward an increased level of gender equality.  Note:  Gender equality may not have been his, or the Lord's, primary motivation with the changes but it has been a byproduct.

I've long believed that he might be the one to make the (policy) change allowing YW to participate in preparing/passing the sacrament since doctrine doesn't require it be performed by priesthood holders.

While I'm at it, I also think we could see women standing in the circle for blessings.

See the above from 3 Nephi.

[The Nehor]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

When the youth becomes prophets, they will lead the way.  

When the current youth become prophets I will either be dead or really wishing I was dead.

[2BizE]

Only priests can administered the sacrament per D&C,  Not Deacons and Teachers. So, whatever deacons and teachers do to pass the sacrament must not be administering the sacrament, thus anyone should be able to pass and set up the sacrament…

[2BizE]

18 hours ago, Freedom said:

There are a number of patriarchal practices that are slowing fading. A recent example is the requirement for only priesthood holders to be a witness at a baptism. Another practice that I think can go  is that one must at least be a deacon to pass the sacrament. I cannot find any doctrinal foundation to this practice other than that it is how the doctrine is currently interpreted. What is rather silly is that, the moment the sacrament tray is handed over someone at the end of a row, it is then passed along by non-priesthood holders. Begs the question, what the doctrinal definition of passing the sacrament? If a women taking the tray is not passing it, then what would we call that? 

I see many references that say that 'the sacrament is administered by those who hold the necessary priesthood authority" but there is never a scripture reference to accompany statements refering to deacons passing the sacrament. D&C 20:76 states, in reference to the sacrament, 'and the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it - he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer". To me, the doctrine is that the administering is limited to the ordinance itself. An ordinance that requires the office of at least a priest. 

I do not see a reason why a 12 year old girl cannot pass the sacrament, just as I see no reason why a women cannot be a ward clerk or executive secretary or, to really show my radical leftwing apostate ways, to witness a baptism or pray in general conference.  

 

There is also the matter of preparing and taking down the sacrament. Women get clothing ready for a baptism and even fill the fonts. They prepare a chair and grab the oil for a blessing. Why does one have to be a teacher to prepare and take down the sacrament, other than to create a make work project to give 14 year old boys some sort of purpose in life. I say it is time for these tradition to go away. Lets have the youth work together to more fully participate in sacred ordinances.  

Very well said and founded in doctrine….just not invented tradition.

[rockpond]

59 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

See the above from 3 Nephi.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the 3 Nephi text.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the 3 Nephi text.

They are the best narratives of how the Savior administered the sacrament in person, using ordained priesthood, with the commandment to always do it this way. Projecting current political correctness and seating arrangements on these instructions is not warranted. Bring, break, bless, give. No mention of unordained people participating. 

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Same here! Shelley was my favorite, but I couldn’t even quote one line now. Maybe I’ll get back to those tortured British poets when I retire:)

I love Shelley, too!  Good ol’ Percy Bysshe (great name for a Basset Hound). 

How about the opening lines of “Mont Blanc” (appeals to the philosopher and mystic in me): “The everlasting universe of things / Flows through the mind and rolls its rapid waves, / Now dark—now glittering—now reflecting gloom— / Now lending splendour, where from secret springs / The source of human thought its tribute brings / Of waters—“

Beautiful 😊

[Peacefully]

17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I love Shelley, too!  Good ol’ Percy Bysshe (great name for a Basset Hound). 

How about the opening lines of “Mont Blanc” (appeals to the philosopher and mystic in me): “The everlasting universe of things / Flows through the mind and rolls its rapid waves, / Now dark—now glittering—now reflecting gloom— / Now lending splendour, where from secret springs / The source of human thought its tribute brings / Of waters—“

Beautiful 😊

Love it!

Here’s another one:

Make me thy lyre, even as the forest is: What if my leaves are falling like its own?
The tumult of thy mighty harmonies
Will take from both a deep autumnal tone, Sweet though in sadness. Be thou, Spirit fierce,
My spirit! Be thou me, impetuous one!
Drive my dead thoughts over the universe,
Like wither'd leaves, to quicken a new birth; And, by the incantation of this verse,
Scatter, as from an unextinguish'd hearth Ashes and sparks, my words among mankind!
Be through my lips to unawaken'd earth
The trumpet of a prophecy! O Wind,
If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind?

Ode to the West Wind

 

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Freedom said:

Why does one have to be a teacher to prepare and take down the sacrament, other than to create a make work project to give 14 year old boys some sort of purpose in life.

And that is exactly when you want their identity to be with the priesthood

It's clear as a bell to me

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

 

When the youth becomes prophets, they will lead the way.  

If there are any left.

[Freedom]

21 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

A female clerk would often result in a male and female being alone together (doing the tithing for example), which goes up against the church policy against that.

so have two women counting the cash. On reality, does anybody pay tithing in cash anymore?

[Freedom]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

3 Nephi 20

 

not getting your point. Are you suggesting that 12 men delivered the sacrament to a thousand people? We do not have a priesthood holder 'give it to the people' today. The hand it to the first person on a row and then it is 'given to the people' one by one by children and women. 

[Freedom]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

They are the best narratives of how the Savior administered the sacrament in person, using ordained priesthood, with the commandment to always do it this way. Projecting current political correctness and seating arrangements on these instructions is not warranted. Bring, break, bless, give. No mention of unordained people participating. 

giver to who? the priest gives it to a deacon, a deacon gives it to a woman who then gives it to her child. You are creating doctrines where none exist. The priesthood administers the sacrament. Full stop. deacons do not have the authority to administer the sacrament. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

We do not have a priesthood holder 'give it to the people' today. The hand it to the first person on a row and then it is 'given to the people' one by one by children and women. 

Today? Have you been to church since COVID?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Freedom said:

giver to who? the priest gives it to a deacon, a deacon gives it to a woman who then gives it to her child. You are creating doctrines where none exist. The priesthood administers the sacrament. Full stop. deacons do not have the authority to administer the sacrament. 

Full stop? I don’t agree. It appears you are creating a modernist narrative where none exists in the original instruction in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

As far as I know, there may have been no Aaronic Priesthood organization in the Nephite Church, but Moroni described how the sacrament was administered by ordained men other than the 12 disciples. Jesus said there would be those ordained among them who would have authority, so who is to say there were no ordained men assisting to give the sacrament to the Nephite multitude? That’s more plausible than random folks helping administer a sacred ordinance. 

“Moroni 4:1 The manner of their elders and priests administering the flesh and blood of Christ unto the church; and they administered it according to the commandments of Christ; wherefore we know the manner to be true; and the elder or priest did minister it…”

I understand “administering…according to the commandments of Christ” to mean bring, break, bless, give by those ordained to do it.

By modern revelation this ordinance is the responsibility of the Aaronic Priesthood which was restored by John Baptist. Deacons, teachers, and priests bring, break, bless, and give just as the Nephite disciples, elders, and priests did. In our time it has been established that the teacher prepares (brings), the priest administers (breaks and blesses), and the deacon passes (gives) under the direction and permission of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Elders may also administer this way. So we observe the ordinance just as it was established by Jesus among the Nephites. 

Moreover, the congregation does not walk up to the priest to receive it in our Church. The deacons give it to them as directed by the bishop. That is their authority.

For these reasons I believe we follow the pattern and instructions given by Christ in the Book of Mormon. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

On reality, does anybody pay tithing in cash anymore?

Old people, children, the less tech savvy, and plenty of places where people don't have easy means of doing it electronically.

 

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

so have two women counting the cash

It specifically needs to be a clerk and a member of the bishopric, or two members of the bishopric. So unless you're gunning for female ordination, there's no way that two females could do it and keep to policy.

[Amulek]

On 6/9/2021 at 11:39 PM, Freedom said:

I see many references that say that 'the sacrament is administered by those who hold the necessary priesthood authority" but there is never a scripture reference to accompany statements refering to deacons passing the sacrament.

I would agree that we don't have scripture detailing how the actual passing of the sacrament ought to be performed. I guess that's just one of the happy byproducts of moving beyond the Law of Moses.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there is no doctrinal basis for the practice of having Deacons pass the sacrament.

The Aaronic Priesthood deals largely with temporal matters and outward ordinances, and Deacons have the responsibility to assist in those duties.

If you are going to eliminate the practice of having the sacrament passed by those who have an affirmative duty to assist in the administration of priesthood ordinances then why limit it to the young women? Why not open it up to any adult or any child (of any age) who wishes to participate as well? And if priesthood really isn't a requirement then why should membership be either?

It seems to me that, in the absence express commandments governing how a given practice ought to be carried out, you're going to have to draw a line somewhere. And the one that is currently in place seems - at least, to me - to be reasonable, practical, and consistent with revealed doctrine.

Could the practice be changed as you suggest and still meet those same qualifications? I tend to think that it could, but I'm less certain that it would be broadly received at this time. And I think that is a point that matters. The Lord seems to put quite a bit of stock in unity. Maybe the only thing holding Him back is us.

 

[ksfisher]

10 hours ago, Freedom said:

deacons do not have the authority to administer the sacrament. 

The authority deacons have to fulfill the duties they've been given is ultimately derived from the president of church, who holds all of the necessary priesthood keys to administer the rites and ordinances of the priesthood that we have today.  The president of the church has been given the power and authority to say how those rites and ordinances should be carried out.