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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I say toss the Procrustean bed. Life is hard enough without crippling ourselves by shutting out options in an attempt to make our families some platonic ideal of 50s Americana. Many might go with the traditional model of dad working while mom takes care of the kids. It is traditional because it works a lot of the time and if it does that is great. Trying to tell people trying to smash their family into a model that they both dislike is a recipe for misery. I imagine most of us have done something we find horribly tedious or miserable because we were "supposed to". Then later we realized it was unnecessary and masochistic and God didn't smile on it anyways.

I agree wholeheartedly. The question is, do the Church and its leaders agree? Or, perhaps even more important, what does God think?

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am watching a historic Chinese drama and all the wives and concubines are trying to kill off or discredit the others’ children. Then there is the issue of unfavored wives/concubines being more or less treated as servants, starved, etc.  Not saying this is standard, just that many cultures wives do not cooperate, but compete. 

Absolutely. It’s often a battle for resources for themselves and their own offspring. Of course there are also some success stories but there’s usually a lot of competitive behavior. Of course.  

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On 6/9/2021 at 1:52 PM, MiserereNobis said:
On 6/9/2021 at 1:05 PM, bluebell said:

putting a child into daycare for the majority of their day is something that should be done out of necessity,

Like public school? :P 

As a teacher, one of the few positive effects of covid shutting down schools was that many people gained a better appreciation of teachers, even if it was just from the fact that we watched their kids while they worked ;) 

I love how the quarantine helped parents, 1 out of 10 in fact, decide to homeschool their kids after learning more about what and how thier kids were being taught

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12 hours ago, Calm said:

I am watching a historic Chinese drama and all the wives and concubines are trying to kill off or discredit the others’ children. Then there is the issue of unfavored wives/concubines being more or less treated as servants, starved, etc.  Not saying this is standard, just that many cultures wives do not cooperate, but compete. 

It actually is fairly standard. Historically most people with multiple wives were those wealthy and/or politically powerful enough that wives and/or concubines had a vested interest in making sure their children got their share or all of it. Dynastic politics are nasty. You get other dynamics when you look at polygyny in a less wealthy context but it is still naturally prone to very serious problems.

13 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Here’s a worm for you:  Outside of Tanzania, polygyny consistently seems to have an adverse effect on children’s mortality. But hey! It’s free babysitting! 

Of course it does. Polygyny setups often make it easier to kill your rival’s babies. You have to take the bad with the good. Or the good with the bad. I forget how it goes.

I am not suggesting my great great grandfather’s marriages are some ideal. I was pointing out how sometimes odd setups work for some people and decided to use a plural marriage example because I like throwing bombs into discussions because it is not boring. I am not suggesting plural marriage is the answer to our current problems. If you know anything about the polyamorous people out there then…..yeah, they are almost uniformly clown shows made up of depressed and broken people who are somehow also on fire. It makes for good dark comedy. Think Three Stooges doing their hijinks with chainsaws. Plenty of schadenfreude until you realize that there are kids trying to survive in these tire fires.

Edited by The Nehor
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12 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I agree wholeheartedly. The question is, do the Church and its leaders agree? Or, perhaps even more important, what does God think?

To the former I would ask who cares? As to what God thinks that is really between the people and God. They need to seek his will. I can say that I strongly believe that many of the more ‘eccentric’ marriage setups I have seen were found with God’s help.

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13 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

As a woman who has raised her children and half those years being a sahm and half not, my anecdotal experience is plenty of judgement that suggests some see earning as a sin.  
And if I had a dollar for every time people said to my husband, “it’s so great that you let mustard pursue her dreams” well then perhaps neither of us would have any reason to work again. 

I find it more weird that it is a ‘let her’ pursue her dreams instead of some kind of joint decision. I am not suggesting that it was true in your case but that it is assumed to be true is kind of messed up.

This kind of thinking is why a lot of marriages are not living up to the “equal partners” bit of the Family Proclamation. One of the strangest scenes I ever witnessed was my mom calling up some of her friends planning to take them waterskiing in my parents’ boat. I could tell almost all of them asked if they had to bring their husband or if my dad would be there as if that was important. I am grateful my mother thought that that was kind of silly and brushed it off lightly.

In the interest of fairness I equally find it weird when a husband makes the comment that his wife will “let him” do something. If you have to watch the kids or need to spend time with your family that is fine. Framing it as ‘mom’ not letting you come out to play is self-infantilizing.

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14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you know anything about the polyamorous people out there then

Anthropologist don’t recognize polyamory as a valid reproductive strategy. Chimpanzees are promiscuous but even they have strict rules of conduct. 😊

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In the interest of fairness I equally find it weird when a husband makes the comment that his wife will “let him” do something. If you have to watch the kids or need to spend time with your family that is fine. Framing it as ‘mom’ not letting you come out to play is self-infantilizing.

After my husband had his motorcycle accident that punctured his lung and broke a rib, everyone was asking me if I would let him keep riding. 
 

That was weird. I told them what I told him, just make sure your insurance is paid up. 

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5 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Anthropologist don’t recognize polyamory as a valid reproductive strategy. Chimpanzees are promiscuous but even they have strict rules of conduct. 😊

I have read anthropologists that disagree. There are some cultures that have very “out there” beliefs and traditions about sexuality. The Mosuo generally know who the father of the child is but it is not culturally of much importance. In the majority of Amazonian tribal cultures there was a belief in partible paternity where each of a woman’s lovers contributed to any children born and a child thus had multiple fathers. Biologically false but culturally useful.

If they are saying it is not a valid reproductive strategy in modern culture I agree completely.

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14 hours ago, katherine the great said:

If I were God, I would think: I like it when my children do their best. And use their brains. 

If I were God, I would agree with you. But I am not God, and you are not God, so I wonder what God would say. I'd like to think that I have a good enough relationship with God that I can understand what He seems to be telling me, but I guess I'm just not sure. Another part of me would like to believe that the Q15 knows something about what God believes and attempted to explain it in The Proclamation, but I find The Proclamation vague enough that it isn't clear to me what God thinks. Perhaps The Proclamation really means that each couple should decide for themselves -- which is what you seem to believe and what I believe -- but, if that is what God thinks, then can we toss the language in the Proclamation and simply say something like, "Parents are responsible to provide, protect, and nurture their children. How parents divide or collaborate on those responsibilities is up to the individual couples."?

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I have read anthropologists that disagree. There are some cultures that have very “out there” beliefs and traditions about sexuality. The Mosuo generally know who the father of the child is but it is not culturally of much importance. In the majority of Amazonian tribal cultures there was a belief in partible paternity where each of a woman’s lovers contributed to any children born and a child thus had multiple fathers. Biologically false but culturally useful.

If they are saying it is not a valid reproductive strategy in modern culture I agree completely.

We do understand that some cultures accept forms of “ polyandry” (rare but valid) but true polyamory (everyone doing it with everyone) is not a recognizable or sustainable strategy. 

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To the former I would ask who cares? As to what God thinks that is really between the people and God.

I should not presume to speak for the OP, but it often seems to me that this is perhaps the heart of this whole discussion. I would agree with you that couples should not care what the brethren think about how they choose to fill their parental responsibilities. But many in the Church believe that they should care, maybe because they believe that the brethren speak for God in this (and other issues).

I might go farther and say that this is a big part of my own faith crisis -- understanding when to care what the brethren think and when to disregard them in favor of my own sense of right and wrong. I don't, yet, have good answers.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

After my husband had his motorcycle accident that punctured his lung and broke a rib, everyone was asking me if I would let him keep riding. 
 

That was weird. I told them what I told him, just make sure your insurance is paid up. 

You’re a nicer wife than I am. My DH wanted to go up in an experimental aircraft his buddy built and the answer was no. (I don’t remember if I said the word or just gave him “the look”.)

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28 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

You’re a nicer wife than I am. My DH wanted to go up in an experimental aircraft his buddy built and the answer was no. (I don’t remember if I said the word or just gave him “the look”.)

Our kids are adults; while it wouldn’t be pleasant, my son’s family would take my daughter and me in.  He has to sacrifice so much for the family he wasn’t expecting when we hooked up and I so know the loss of dreams, I am not going to take away something he finds joy in. 
 

He has chosen not to use the bike to commute anymore as that is what caused it, driver not paying attention, stopped suddenly and took a wide right turn in front of him forcing him to move into the gravel and lay the bike down. He might have come out of it with just bruises if he hadn’t been wearing a messenger bag with his laptop. It made a big bump to land on in just the wrong stop. 
 

Experimental aircraft...nah.  I would be giving the look as well.  Though a paraglider or something tried and true with a relatively safe record after training, I would not put up a fight. 
 

I wasn’t gentle in explaining the pros and cons of his choice. He knows if he gets paralyzed or something that requires a caregiver beyond very minimal stuff (he couldn’t even rely on me for meals), he will likely have to go into an institution because we would have to hire someone to care for him and that likely would be too expensive for home care.  
 

He takes an afternoon for his road trips. Sometimes overnight if he has buddies.  Thankfully it is something I don’t have anxiety about as my dad commuted on one after the gas crunch in the 70s and then when retired, he and Mom traveled all over by cycle. He never had a bad accident (he wore a bright orange jumpsuit to protect clothing and make sure everyone could see him while commuting).

Edited by Calm
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46 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

- but, if that is what God thinks, then can we toss the language in the Proclamation and simply say something like, "Parents are responsible to provide, protect, and nurture their children. How parents divide or collaborate on those responsibilities is up to the individual couples."?

I vote “yes”. 😀

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2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I might go farther and say that this is a big part of my own faith crisis -- understanding when to care what the brethren think and when to disregard them in favor of my own sense of right and wrong. I don't, yet, have good answers.

Welcome to critical thinking.  As children of primary we were taught to color inside the lines and to share everything.  As we grow and mature, we come to find out that life is not that black and white.  The discovery of what is black, what is white, and what is color is a wonderful journey of vulnerability and fulfillment.  Thank goodness for the atonement that allows us to grow and change. 

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3 hours ago, katherine the great said:

We do understand that some cultures accept forms of “ polyandry” (rare but valid) but true polyamory (everyone doing it with everyone) is not a recognizable or sustainable strategy. 

Oh.....crap. I guess I better trash my plans for my debased sex cult. Welp, it was fun while it lasted.

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I should not presume to speak for the OP, but it often seems to me that this is perhaps the heart of this whole discussion. I would agree with you that couples should not care what the brethren think about how they choose to fill their parental responsibilities. But many in the Church believe that they should care, maybe because they believe that the brethren speak for God in this (and other issues).

I might go farther and say that this is a big part of my own faith crisis -- understanding when to care what the brethren think and when to disregard them in favor of my own sense of right and wrong. I don't, yet, have good answers.

They do speak for God on issues. If you are sure you are going against the Brethren's counsel than I would reconsider. There are some general guidelines and they are important. However if counsel has not been decisively given on a point worrying about what they might think seems counterproductive. I don't mean digging through the Journal of Discourses and finding that an apostle of that era ventured an opinion right after Brigham Young explained the best way to bake bread.

If the general rules do not prohibit feel free to experiment.

Edited by The Nehor
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