The new jerusalem in jackson county, missouri ?

[Amulek]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Please don’t cast aspersions on native Utahns. I’m one, and I don’t hold that opinion, nor does any Utah native I know. 

I didn't mean anything negative by my comment, nor was I trying to imply that such beliefs were common or widespread.

I was just making a guess about who might even say such a thing. To my ears it sounded a bit like well-intentioned, albeit misplaced, hometown pride.

Besides, if it ends up being somewhere other than Jackson County, I think everyone knows that Texas is (objectively) the obvious choice.  

 

[longview]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the location of the New Jerusalem. Those who contradict that are wresting doctrine. 
 

I think, though, that Jackson County is a man-made boundary to which we need not bind ourselves. Adam-Ondi-Ahman is not in Jackson County, yet I believe that will be part of the New Jerusalem. 

Including Far West, MO?

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, longview said:

Including Far West, MO?

Far West is in Caldwell County. Adam-Ondi-Ahman is in Daviess County. Neither is in Jackson County. Yet I believe both will be in the New Jerusalem. 

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, randy said:

I was born and raised in Independence, Missouri so I will go on record now as saying wholeheartedly that ..YES! I believe the New Jerusalem will be located in Jackson County, Mo.   Recently I have come across some members of the Church who espouse a view that the Saints failed in their efforts to establish that back in the day and so now they are of the notion that perhaps Salt Lake City, Utah will be the New Jerusalem spoken of by the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants.

So my question for my esteemed and well versed Brothers and Sisters on this board....what do you believe?  Jackson County or Salt Lake City, Utah?

I don't think members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, en masse, are going to vacate the rest of the world and move to Jackson County MO.  There wouldn't be room, and there are other considerations that would, in my opinion, make such a thing impractical.  And as much as a part of my very soul looks at the carnage and chaos that appear to be worsening by the day in this fallen world of ours and cries, "Hasten Zion!" the Lord's response seems to be, "You 'hasten Zion.'  It has to start with you, and within you, and can start nowhere else.  You have no control over anyone else.  You just do the best you can do to do what you can do and what you must do, and let Me worry about the rest."

I don't have a reference, but one of the Brethren (Brigham Young, perhaps?) reportedly said that Salt Lake City would become one of the wickedest cities in the world before the Savior's Second Advent.  That said, I cannot, for the life of me, fathom the end (purpose) of all of this Temple building and Temple renovation if, ultimately, most all of them (save the Temple Complex at Independence, the Temple in Jerusalem, and perhaps those in a handful of other places) simply will be forsaken and left to rot.

As the Pioneer forbears of many of today's Saints demonstrated quite clearly, members of the Church of Jesus Christ who are of a mind (and perhaps most importantly, who are "of a heart") to do so can build Zion in a variety of places.  Even though it didn't last, they did it most everywhere they went, for at least every few years, anyway.  If they did it then, we can do it now.  As much as I think it would be a fascinating and fulfilling experience to go to, to build up, and to live in Zion at Jackson County MO, as much as I might feel to say, "Hallelujah!  Hasten the day!", "Zion" will be wherever a unified, purified, pure-hearted, single-minded, righteous, generous people who are determined to seek the mind of the Lord and to do His will are.

When it comes to the return of my Lord and Savior, I think the Prophet Alma had it exactly right: "Would to God that it might be in my day.  But let it be sooner or later, in it, I will rejoice."  Alma 13:25 (going from memory).

In sum?  "Zion" can be wherever you are.  It has to be.  You don't have much control over anything else.  I wish you well.

[strappinglad]

21:16	And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
21:17	And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, If the scripture is to be considered, The New Jerusalem is one BIG city. 1400 miles on a side and as tall with 250ft walls. We will need more than Jackson county.

[2BizE]

9 hours ago, randy said:

You my good friend are a certified goofball!

I think all who really believe the  New Jerusalem in Missouri are certified goofballs.  Wasn’t the garden of eden there also?

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, strappinglad said:

21:16	And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
21:17	And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, If the scripture is to be considered, The New Jerusalem is one BIG city. 1400 miles on a side and as tall with 250ft walls. We will need more than Jackson county.

Oops! 
 

Sorry, Strappknglad, but I meant to reply to Kengo’s post. Not that yours isn’t a fine post as well. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't think members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, en masse, are going to vacate the rest of the world and move to Jackson County MO.  There wouldn't be room, and there are other considerations that would, in my opinion, make such a thing impractical.  And as much as a part of my very soul looks at the carnage and chaos that appear to be worsening by the day in this fallen world of ours and cries, "Hasten Zion!" the Lord's response seems to be, "You 'hasten Zion.'  It has to start with you, and within you, and can start nowhere else.  You have no control over anyone else.  You just do the best you can do to do what you can do and what you must do, and let Me worry about the rest."

I don't have a reference, but one of the Brethren (Brigham Young, perhaps?) reportedly said that Salt Lake City would become one of the wickedest cities in the world before the Savior's Second Advent.  That said, I cannot, for the life of me, fathom the end (purpose) of all of this Temple building and Temple renovation if, ultimately, most all of them (save the Temple Complex at Independence, the Temple in Jerusalem, and perhaps those in a handful of other places) simply will be forsaken and left to rot.

As the Pioneer forbears of many of today's Saints demonstrated quite clearly, members of the Church of Jesus Christ who are of a mind (and perhaps most importantly, who are "of a heart") to do so can build Zion in a variety of places.  Even though it didn't last, they did it most everywhere they went, for at least every few years, anyway.  If they did it then, we can do it now.  As much as I think it would be a fascinating and fulfilling experience to go to, to build up, and to live in Zion at Jackson County MO, as much as I might feel to say, "Hallelujah!  Hasten the day!", "Zion" will be wherever a unified, purified, pure-hearted, single-minded, righteous, generous people who are determined to seek the mind of the Lord and to do His will are.

When it comes to the return of my Lord and Savior, I think the Prophet Alma had it exactly right: "Would to God that it might be in my day.  But let it be sooner or later, in it, I will rejoice."  Alma 13:25 (going from memory).

In sum?  "Zion" can be wherever you are.  It has to be.  You don't have much control over anything else.  I wish you well.

Well said!

But the quote from Brigham Young about Salt Lake City being among the wickedest? I’ve never seen that authenticated. If it can’t be authenticated, I’d like to see it debunked. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I think all who really believe the  New Jerusalem in Missouri are certified goofballs.  

Says the guy who inserts Russel M. Nelson quotes into his posts that don’t even support what he said. 

[AtlanticMike]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Far West is in Caldwell County. Adam-Ondi-Ahman is in Daviess County. Neither is in Jackson County. Yet I believe both will be in the New Jerusalem. 

So I've never been there, is there anything special about that area, does anything stand out from the ordinary compared to surrounding towns or geography?  Is it just a typical small town USA ?

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

21:16	And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
21:17	And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, If the scripture is to be considered, The New Jerusalem is one BIG city. 1400 miles on a side and as tall with 250ft walls. We will need more than Jackson county.

And to be that tall.....

That is no city. It is a space station.

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

So I've never been there, is there anything special about that area, does anything stand out from the ordinary compared to surrounding towns or geography?  Is it just a typical small town USA ?

I don’t know what you mean when you say “it.” There are numerous Church historic sites in western Missouri. I mentioned three counties, Jackson, Caldwell and Daviess, so that covers quite a wide territory. 
 

Independence, the county seat of Jackson, is a good-size Midwestern city adjoining Kansas City. It is the site of the temple lot prophesied for the Second Coming and at one time was the headquarters of the Church. A Church visitor center is there, as is the temple of the Community of Christ, formerly the RLDS Church. 

Not far from Independence is Liberty, where the Prophet Joseph Smith and companions were imprisoned in Liberty Jail by a mob militia. The remnant of the jail is now enclosed in a Church visitor center with a diorama of mannequins in the jail dungeon representing the prophet and the others. Doctrine and Covenants 121-123 were received as revelations in the jail. Liberty is a small-to-mid-size city. 
 

In Richmond, there is a monument to the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Two of the witnesses — David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery — are buried there. Richmond is where the prophet and his companions were put on trial before being imprisoned at Liberty. Richmond is the county seat of Caldwell, so there is a courthouse there with a heroic-size statue of Alexander W. Doniphan. He was a friend and defender of Joseph Smith, but the statue honors him not for his friendship to the Saints but for his exploits as a war hero in the Mexican-American War and for his philanthropy. 
 

Adam-Ondi-Ahman appears to be mostly pristine wilderness, but it is carefully tended by Church missionaries. It is carefully preserved for its ancient history as a sacred locale where Adam blessed his posterity and for its future as the locale where Adam will meet with all the righteous of past generations. 
 

The site of the Hawn’s Mill massacre is an out-of the-way site, pretty much wilderness but preserved for its historic significance. 
 

At Far West is the foundation of the temple that was started but never constructed because enemies drove  the Saints out of Missouri before it could be built. 

All this might be more than you wanted to know, but I don’t think you realized the scope of what you were asking for. And I haven’t even told you everything!

[randy]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Rumors among some of the Pacific Islanders living in our area are that a number of folks from there are moving to Jackson County for this reason. Who knows?

There is a VERY LARGE Polynesion population in Indep. and surrounding communities.  They have moved to Independence for that very reason.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

And to be that tall.....

That is no city. It is a space station.

The Life Star ?

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The Life Star ?

I would say anything motivated or inspired by one of these three myths is not an example of the Lord inspiring people to move en masse to the area (I'd be happy see any updates research on the topic and will continue looking): https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1979/04/missouri-myths?lang=eng

[longview]

10 hours ago, strappinglad said:

21:16	And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
21:17	And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, If the scripture is to be considered, The New Jerusalem is one BIG city. 1400 miles on a side and as tall with 250ft walls. We will need more than Jackson county.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And to be that tall.....

That is no city. It is a space station.

Don't know if it is speculation or what but I have heard it said that when the City of Enoch was taken up into Heaven, it left an enormous void where the Gulf of Mexico is.  And it is prophesied that the city will return.  Would that fit the bill?

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, randy said:

There is a VERY LARGE Polynesion population in Indep. and surrounding communities.  They have moved to Independence for that very reason.

Here's an article from 1979 Ensign that touches on that: https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1979/06/saints-in-independence?lang=eng

"Several years ago, some Latter-day Saint families from Samoa and Tonga began emigrating to Independence for better employment and education opportunities. Several hundred Polynesians now are members of the Independence wards. The cultural differences have challenged both new and old ward members, but the Saints have learned ways to grow in understanding and acceptance.

"Even as years pass, evidences of Polynesian culture are strong in Independence..."

[2BizE]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Says the guy who inserts Russel M. Nelson quotes into his posts that don’t even support what he said. 

I just don’t believe everything that came out of JS mouth was revelation.  He said too many things that were illogical.  

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know what you mean when you say “it.” There are numerous Church historic sites in western Missouri. I mentioned three counties, Jackson, Caldwell and Daviess, so that covers quite a wide territory. 
 

Independence, the county seat of Jackson, is a good-size Midwestern city adjoining Kansas City. It is the site of the temple lot prophesied for the Second Coming and at one time was the headquarters of the Church. A Church visitor center is there, as is the temple of the Community of Christ, formerly the RLDS Church. 

Not far from Independence is Liberty, where the Prophet Joseph Smith and companions were imprisoned in Liberty Jail by a mob militia. The remnant of the jail is now enclosed in a Church visitor center with a diorama of mannequins in the jail dungeon representing the prophet and the others. Doctrine and Covenants 121-123 were received as revelations in the jail. Liberty is a small-to-mid-size city. 
 

In Richmond, there is a monument to the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Two of the witnesses — David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery — are buried there. Richmond is where the prophet and his companions were put on trial before being imprisoned at Liberty. Richmond is the county seat of Caldwell, so there is a courthouse there with a heroic-size statue of Alexander W. Doniphan. He was a friend and defender of Joseph Smith, but the statue honors him not for his friendship to the Saints but for his exploits as a war hero in the Mexican-American War and for his philanthropy. 
 

Adam-Ondi-Ahman appears to be mostly pristine wilderness, but it is carefully tended by Church missionaries. It is carefully preserved for its ancient history as a sacred locale where Adam blessed his posterity and for its future as the locale where Adam will meet with all the righteous of past generations. 
 

The site of the Hawn’s Mill massacre is an out-of the-way site, pretty much wilderness but preserved for its historic significance. 
 

At Far West is the foundation of the temple that was started but never constructed because enemies drove  the Saints out of Missouri before it could be built. 

All this might be more than you wanted to know, but I don’t think you realized the scope of what you were asking for. And I haven’t even told you everything!

Thank you, that's what I was asking, I wasn't sure how many historic mormon sites were actually in the area. I've never really considered going there, sounds like there's more than what I was thinking.

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you, that's what I was asking, I wasn't sure how many historic mormon sites were actually in the area. I've never really considered going there, sounds like there's more than what I was thinking.

All these that I’ve identified are spread out pretty far, so even after getting to Missouri, you pretty much have to plan on a day trip to see them, and even then you might not be able to get them all in. 
 

In addition to these more prominent sites, there are some more obscure ones that you might need a guide to help you find. I was fortunate on two occasions to be with Alex Baugh of BYU to show me around. Alex is, in my view, the foremost Church history scholar of the Missouri period of Church history. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

I just don’t believe everything that came out of JS mouth was revelation.  He said too many things that were illogical.  

Our logic is limited and need not be applied to God.  There was no logic when Christ said he'd die and raise on the third day.  And then he did it.

[OGHoosier]

5 hours ago, longview said:

Don't know if it is speculation or what but I have heard it said that when the City of Enoch was taken up into Heaven, it left an enormous void where the Gulf of Mexico is.  And it is prophesied that the city will return.  Would that fit the bill?

 

I have never heard this speculation before in my life. 

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I just don’t believe everything that came out of JS mouth was revelation.  He said too many things that were illogical.  

Do you believe anything that came out of Joseph’s mouth was actual revelation? (Serious question)

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I have never heard this speculation before in my life. 

 

It is an oldie, but goodie one...

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

I would say anything motivated or inspired by one of these three myths is not an example of the Lord inspiring people to move en masse to the area (I'd be happy see any updates research on the topic and will continue looking): https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1979/04/missouri-myths?lang=eng

This is a good article, one I’ve used in the past to dispel the false notions of the entire Church having to walk en masse to Missouri. 
 

I have my own theory as to why this originated. Many of the early Saints verily believed that the Second Coming would transpire within their lifetime. Had that happened, the entire Church, such as it was, could probably have fit easily within the confines of Jackson County. 
 

And what would have been the means of overland travel then? Pretty much what they were when the Pioneer Saints came to the Salt Lake Valley. 
 

So even though these myths strike us as silly today when we think even a moment about them, they probably seemed much more plausible in the early days of the Church and got handed down from generation to generation without ever being seriously scrutinized.