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Increasing state-authorized/Mandated segregation


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39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

there is no way to heal the hurt

There will never be a time when all agree that the hurt has been healed. 

The Lamanites' focus on what others had led to those others being destroyed; that's what was claimed would heal the hurt. 

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Posted (edited)

I have a theory that the distant civil rights advances - the ones following endless serial atrocities - those advances were the simplest parts of the equation. The phase in front of us now is immensely more complex.

My perspective is that are faced with discrimination that is so broadly accepted and so deeply woven into our society that we are still developing tools that can properly examine it and communicate what we find.

and

Part of the process of sorting issues we don't fully understand is us trying a variety of imperfect approaches. Partially that's because there aren't better, proven methods and partially because we learn valuable stuff from them.

Sometimes imperfect approaches buy us some breathing room while we puzzle out something better.

and

What isn't a theory to me is that a Culture of No nurtures social starvation. Rejecting potentially valuable approaches based on little more than intellectual constructs (seemingly built for the purpose) is what cultures do when they have given up on being better than they are.

Edited by Chum
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4 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

There's a reason people live near other people of a similar background, culture, heritage, langauge.  Big cities have thier China towns, Korean areas, some have Little Russia areas, some have Tongan, Samoan, etc. THere's nothing wrong with this. THere is strength in numbers. 

I agree.  But when power structures and institutions step in and say that certain racial categories are not allowed to live in a particular neighborhood, then I think that becomes a real problem.

4 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Remember what happened w/ forced busing? 

Advocating for integration - sounds nice but never really works becuase one group is always seen as the "Haves" which must endlessly give of resources to the "Have Nots." This leads the "Haves" to simply exit like the Herbivore men in Japan

"Is always seen as" seems to be the operative phrase.  You seem to be conflating race with socioeconomic status.  I don't think that works.

Thanks,

-Smac

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37 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is where we start to part ways a bit.  I think we've made significant progress in racial harmony and righting past wrongs.

I think it's important to keep progress in perspective.  Progress is always great, but when harm is still actively happening, saying "we aren't hurting you guys nearly as much as we used to" isn't much to celebrate.

It reminds me of my 16 year old, who had a few semesters of really bad grades.  Bad, like failing multiple classes.  After two semesters like that he made some good changes and his grades improved drastically.  But when you start out with a 33% in a class, drastic improvement can still equal below average.  His third semester of high school he failed no classes.  But he still barely passed some classes and was doing far below his capacity in almost all of them.  But when his dad and I would get on him about his grades he would often come back with "but look at the progress!". 

We were both so proud of the changes he had made--and we recognized that any progress forward was essential in getting to the goal--but "look at the progress!" was not a valid reply when talking about all of the progress that still needed to be made.

I think it's the same with this topic. You are right to say that it is significant progress that we don't enslave black people anymore, that Jim Crow laws are mostly a thing in the past, and that in most places a black person can open a bank account or buy/sell a home just as easily as any white person.  But, that kind of progress is such a low bar of accomplishment that it is embarrassing to celebrate it.  It's certainly not a valid answer when discussing the progress that still needs to be made.  

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Complaints from these "reform" organizations might carry more weight if they had even a passing interest in combating racism against nonwhites. It seems to me to be a not-too-subtle "what about the blacks, latinos, gays, etc.?" argument intended to counter and silence discussion of the kind of racism we see every day in this country.

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Just now, bluebell said:

I think it's important to keep progress in perspective.  Progress is always great, but when harm is still actively happening, saying "we aren't hurting you guys nearly as much as we used to" isn't much to celebrate.

"Harm is still actively happening?"  I'm not sure what that means.

And what is this "We aren't hurting you guys nearly as much as we used to?"  I reject the notion of collective guilt. 

Just now, bluebell said:

I think it's the same with this topic. You are right to say that it is significant progress that we don't enslave black people anymore, that Jim Crow laws are mostly a thing in the past, and that in most places a black person can open a bank account or buy/sell a home just as easily as any white person.  But, that kind of progress is such a low bar of accomplishment that it is embarrassing to celebrate it.  It's certainly not a valid answer when discussing the progress that still needs to be made.  

I'm not presenting that as an answer.  And I'm not denying that racism still exists.

But I am disputing the notion that replacing one form of discrimination with another is a good idea.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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6 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

There will never be a time when all agree that the hurt has been healed. 

This assertion contains at least 3 absolutes. Absolutes tend to be a poor device for a discussion on healing.

 

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6 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

POC are exercising their newfound power to punish us for the actions of some of our ancestors. This will not end well. 

Let us know when white folks get pulled over for driving a car that's too nice, or get arrested for walking in their own neighborhood. Then you might approach some sort of moral equivalence. Acting as if people of color are usurping white power and desiring to punish people for being white sounds a lot like fear of losing a privileged place in society. 

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2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Let us know when white folks get pulled over for driving a car that's too nice, or get arrested for walking in their own neighborhood. Then you might approach some sort of moral equivalence. Acting as if people of color are usurping white power and desiring to punish people for being white sounds a lot like fear of losing a privileged place in society. 

I don't like the idea of race-based privileges. 

Thanks,

-Smac

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2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't like the idea of race-based privileges. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Nor do I, but it's more than a little ridiculous to suggest that we are heading towards a society in which white people are systemically discriminated against, "punishment" or not. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

There are three things we can do as individuals and as members of the Church to begin to correct the systemic racism that leads to the initiatives that are so laughably framed above as segregation and as discrimination against white folks:

 

1. Set aside our blithe and unthinking defense of the nation's systemic power asymmetries that serve our interests over and against those of minorities.

2. Stop insisting our perspectives are the default or the ruling perspectives and actually give space to the consensus of minorities regarding those systemic power asymmetries.

3. Stop confusing right wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, and colorblind racial ideology for the gospel. 

Excellent post. These "reform" websites seem to be about deflecting attention away from entrenched racism. Black people face constant discrimination in many aspects of life? Who cares? Harvard has a "safe space" for black students! The horror!

Edited by jkwilliams
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Harm is still actively happening?"  I'm not sure what that means.

How about how black babies are at a higher risk of death with nonblack doctors?

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/35/21194
 

How about blacks still not being given the medical care they need because of false ideas doctors are still being taught, like blacks have thicker skin, etc and feel pain less?

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patients-pain

How about the NFL giving blacks lower settlements for brain injuries than whites because of assuming blacks have lower cognition to begin with?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/nfl-halt-race-norming-which-assumed-black-players-had-lower-n1269435

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

How is this a thread about Mormonism?

It's not, but the OP mentions culture-specific LDS wards, so it has a tiny thread linking it to Mormonism. But it is a good example of the monetization of outrage by the media.

Edited by jkwilliams
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Posted (edited)

I read the title of this thread, say who the OP was, and started laughing uproariously. It is exactly what I expected.

Edit: Forgot the Oxford comma and would have died of shame without it.

Edited by The Nehor
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44 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Didn't we decide some time ago that race-based segregation was inherently "unjust?"  That "separate but equal" didn't really work?

I think it is paramount to remember that we decided they were inherently unjust because they were not actually equal.  They were separate and unequal, which is where most of the problems came from.  We've never actually seen separate but equal in action, so we don't know how it would all play out.  

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They do?  How?  If a white woman is sexually assaulted by a black man, "real harm has occurred."  Is she thereafter entitled to exclude all black men from her vicinity?  How does that "make sense?"

We are talking about systemic harm, which is different than personal harm.  But honestly in my opinion yes, she would be entitled to a period of time where it would be 'acceptable' for her to feel very uncomfortable around black men and to do what she could to keep them out of her sphere.  

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But isn't reducing individuals to a mere racial identity part of the problem?  Particularly in 2021, decades after the Civil Rights Act and the dismantling of "systemic" racism?

I don't necessarily think it is, if it's kept in check.  When the pendulum has swung so far to one side, it almost always has to swing far to the other before it can settle in the middle.  That seems to be the natural way of things.   Giving black people space to themselves might be a part of what is necessary to get us to a middle ground.  

Seems like it would be worth giving it a shot if that's what they felt they needed.

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Moreover, what are your thoughts about this:

P1-BH636_murder_G_20120817182109.jpg

The biggest threat to black people is . . . other black people.  And the biggest threat to white people is . . . other white people.

 

My thoughts are that correlation does not equal causation and these kinds of things are not useful in this type of discussion for that reason.   It also makes me think that if a black person came at me with "I feel emotionally safer in spaces where white people can't go," responding with these statistics would be a good way to prove them right.  

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I'm not saying that racism isn't a real and serious problem.  It really is.  But I don't think we improve things by pigeon-holing people into racial categories and then treating those categories differently.

Maybe not.  Or maybe dismissing it out of hand because it might discriminate against white people is how we don't improve things.  We don't exactly know what will help so some experimentation (lead by minorities) could be a good thing.  All we really know is that we still need a lot of it.

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Yes, I've wondered why I'm okay with "women only" spaces, but not okay with "whites only" spaces.

I'll think on that.

 

:good: 

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A fair point.  I just question whether "blacks only" spaces and the like are doing more harm than good, if they are perpetuating, rather than healing, racial discord.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

They may be.  Or they may be a bridge to what will ultimately help. I guess I don't see the harm in letting that play out a bit to see what the results will be.

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1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

There will never be a time when all agree that the hurt has been healed. 

The Lamanites' focus on what others had led to those others being destroyed; that's what was claimed would heal the hurt. 

You're probably right.  A general consensus is a good thing to shoot for.

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Thus ends the no politics rule

Rest in pieces, all.

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1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

POC are exercising their newfound power to punish us for the actions of some of our ancestors. This will not end well. 

Attempts to implement equality ALWAYS feel like attacks to the privileged and those who held a higher status. It won’t end well for that reason.

We already had a laughably inept coup attempt over it. Hopefully this is not the equivalent of the Beer Hall Putsch before the Nazis took power. I think we might dodge that. The US has a more entrenched concept of democracy and republicanism compared to the people of the Weimar Republic. At least I hope they do.

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think that needs to be part of the discussion.  Replacing one form of ugliness with another is not the way to go.

I assumed as much, and I'm not trying to argue you away from that.  I'm just saying that, pragmatically speaking, as long as you make it a part of the discussion you'll never reach the conclusion you want. 

I'm a pragmatic person by nature and the end result is what matters to me.  If I can't get my desired end result with a specific action, then it doesn't matter how awesome or necessary or 'right' I think that action is, it's useless to me and I'll have to find another way.

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You would never say this to a black person.  Or a hispanic or Jewish person.

Not as a white or Christian person I wouldn't.  I don't think there would be anything wrong with a member of that group saying it to their group though.    

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I think logic and reason should always be a part of the resolution of a problem, not an afterthought.

Have you considered (and I'm not saying this in a snarky way at all) the reception that some of your 'logic and reason' posts have had on here over the years?  Have you considered that your preference for logic and reason has often made it more difficult for you to discuss issues and find resolutions, not less?

Your mileage probably varies but as an outsider looking into some of your posts, it seems like a reliance on logic and reason has created less resolution and more contention, not the other way around.

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Imagine a woman who is sexually assaulted by a black man.  Can she thereafter say that "the group" (all black men everywhere) are culpable for her injury, and that they therefore cannot be a part of any conversation?  Not because of anything they have done, but simply because they share attributes with a wrongdoer (skin color and gender)?

A woman assaulted by one black man one time?  No.  A woman who is assaulted daily or weekly by hundreds of different black men for most of her life?  Sure.  I think that would be a very reasonable and logical way for her to look at it.

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"Harm is still actively happening?"  I'm not sure what that means.

And what is this "We aren't hurting you guys nearly as much as we used to?"  I reject the notion of collective guilt. 

I'm not presenting that as an answer.  And I'm not denying that racism still exists.

But I am disputing the notion that replacing one form of discrimination with another is a good idea.  

Thanks,

-Smac

It would probably be helpful to you to spend some significant time delving into the racism that minorities are still dealing with as a part of their daily lives.  It's going to be really hard for you to be useful in finding a resolution with this topic (and I believe you do want to do that) if you don't know the things that still need to be resolved.

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