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Is god a mormon?


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51 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  Considering that God could literally send an angel to every person telling them anything He wanted them to know, it seems obvious that the difficulty inherent in getting to know God and understand His will is somewhat by design.

I also suspect a part of it is due to some eternal laws I do not understand. Is God sending angels to appear to everyone God wants to or is there some kind of law governing when it can be done?

No idea.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

God could literally send an angel to every person telling them anything He wanted them to know

The fallout from this would be spectacular.

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On 5/30/2021 at 7:45 PM, mfbukowski said:

Uh, no. Don't know where to start on this one

So Brigham's Adam-God theory proves that Joseph's revelations about God's human body, and the Bible saying that Jesus is a resurrected Human are inconsistent?

Uh, no.

Uh no that is not what I said.  Go back and read the post I responded to. It is all about the inconstancy.  Start with the LDS current teachings about the Godhead as compared with the Lectures on Faith. The inconstancy does not build confidence.  Really if BY got it wrong well, a prophet ought to at least know who and what God is.

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On 5/30/2021 at 8:15 PM, bluebell said:

I can see why you would see it that way, but from my perspective that's way too simplistic of a perspective.  I would say that getting the message out clearly is less important to God than developing the faith to follow an imperfect message, and deal with each other's imperfections along the way.  Because that is how we become Christ-like, which in my belief is what God is actually after.   

Just because something is important (a first principle, as you said) doesn't mean it won't be difficult or require a lot of us to achieve.  Certainty is a bit of a drug while uncertainty can be so uncomfortable.  It takes a lot of work, and a lot of introspection, and a constant willingness to change/adapt, and so much humility.  All things humans are generally bad at.   

So why would this God make it so difficult to understand and know who he is?  I mean really if his "prophets and apostles" can't get is straight what good are they?

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On 5/30/2021 at 9:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Nothing worth having comes easy.  No pain, no gain.  Teddy Roosevelt said:

II Nephi 2 Lehi's Law of Opposites, without which neither we nor God could exist (vs 13).

This is a nice thing to say to provide comfort to those who cling to faith when it is pretty clear nobody really knows who or what God is or what God intends or if God is even there.  More and more it seems to me a vain and wasteful use of time and energy for humans to think they know the mind of a creator if one exists. God really is made in the image of humans.

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On 5/31/2021 at 5:28 AM, The Nehor said:

Or God actually wants his children to have to get to know much of the nature of God through direct communications and not through textbooks.

It seems like those who think they are getting direct communication are incredibly inconsistent. Even within the same religion.  Just study the nature of God in LDS history. It has changed quite a bit.

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On 5/29/2021 at 2:49 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Depends on which god one has in mind.  The transcendent Judeo-Christian God, or the immanent God who weeps (Moses 7:28-29), and of whom it is said:  "This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).  The true God not only yearns for followers, but it is His raison d'être.  He will literally give His life for the faithful, and has done so.

Why did this God have to give his life for the "faithful."

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On 5/29/2021 at 3:47 PM, Stargazer said:

But He has also always worked through a covenant people,

Has he?  How do you know this?  Who is his covenant people?  Is it the Jews?  The Latter-day Saints?  The Muslims?  What about people that lived 8000 years ago?  Who was the covenant people then?  How about 50,000 years ago?  Or were those humans something less?  It is pretty easy to claim to be God's chosen or so it seems.

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14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This is a nice thing to say to provide comfort to those who cling to faith when it is pretty clear nobody really knows who or what God is or what God intends or if God is even there.  More and more it seems to me a vain and wasteful use of time and energy for humans to think they know the mind of a creator if one exists. God really is made in the image of humans.

Am I correct in presuming you believe that after we die we forever cease to exist as conscious intelligent beings? If this is the case, what’s the harm if prior to the endless oblivion that follows death if some choose to believe life as a conscious being continues after death, that this life is part of a glorious divine plan with a wonderful destiny, and that a just being of perfect intelligence, wisdom and love presides over this creation? Is there some greater appreciation for life and greater potential for peace and happiness if one believes life is ultimately futile, meaningless and of no lasting consequence? What’s the advantage is there in living life with the belief that faith, hope and charity don’t endure forever and that existence is nothing more than a bizarre cosmic accident?

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15 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Am I correct in presuming you believe that after we die we forever cease to exist as conscious intelligent beings? If this is the case, what’s the harm if prior to the endless oblivion that follows death if some choose to believe life as a conscious being continues after death, that this life is part of a glorious divine plan with a wonderful destiny, and that a just being of perfect intelligence, wisdom and love presides over this creation? Is there some greater appreciation for life and greater potential for peace and happiness if one believes life is ultimately futile, meaningless and of no lasting consequence? What’s the advantage is there in living life with the belief that faith, hope and charity don’t endure forever and that existence is nothing more than a bizarre cosmic accident?

I've often wondered what the need is for 7 year olds to run around convincing other 7 year olds that Santa does not exist. 

I think it's pride - "I know more than you know". To them  I say, leave it alone.  It's nice to believe in something.  

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29 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I've often wondered what the need is for 7 year olds to run around convincing other 7 year olds that Santa does not exist. 

I think it's pride - "I know more than you know". To them  I say, leave it alone.  It's nice to believe in something.  

Is it likewise pride for the other 7-year-olds to try to convince others there is a Santa Claus?

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Just now, jkwilliams said:

Is it likewise pride for the other 7-year-olds to try to convince others there is a Santa Claus?

If Santa would get himself a holy ghost and facilitate some miracles, that'd go a long way toward that discussion.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I've often wondered what the need is for 7 year olds to run around convincing other 7 year olds that Santa does not exist. 

I think it's pride - "I know more than you know". To them  I say, leave it alone.  It's nice to believe in something.  

In the case of unbelieving former believers, I believe the primary motivation is wanting companionship in their despair and misery. Once someone has given up on the idea of having a loving interactive relationship with an infinite and eternal God of love, what’s left but the need for validation that giving up on faith, hope, charity and confidence in a more glorious world to come is the one and only reasonable and valid approach to their perception of the ultimate meaninglessness and futility of life.

Edited by teddyaware
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31 minutes ago, Chum said:

If Santa would get himself a holy ghost and facilitate some miracles, that'd go a long way toward that discussion.

Is it pride that motivates people to convince others of the Holy Ghost and miracles?

Unbelievers are regularly accused of the basest motivations, but it seems, at least here, that people on both sides of the divide are motivated by the need to be right. Very few posters seem motivated to want to help, to bring the apostates home. 

That probably sounds harsher than I mean, but I’m just saying we all want to be right, and sometimes that trumps everything else. 

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8 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In the case of unbelieving former believers...

Once someone has given up on the idea of having a loving interactive relationship with an infinite and eternal God of love,

This may come with a presumption that former believers had that sort of relationship with God. That isn't a given. Many are never able to develop that.

Some who don't attain that level of connection find other reasons to stay on. Some don't

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9 minutes ago, Chum said:

This may come with a presumption that former believers had that sort of relationship with God. That isn't a given. Many are never able to develop that.

Some who don't attain that level of connection find other reasons to stay on. Some don't

That is a stunningly arrogant statement. How do you know whether other people have a relationship with God, or not?

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34 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In the case of unbelieving former believers, I believe the primary motivation is wanting companionship in their despair and misery. Once someone has given up on the idea of having a loving interactive relationship with an infinite and eternal God of love, what’s left but the need for validation that giving up on faith, hope, charity and confidence in a more glorious world to come is the one and only reasonable and valid approach to their perception of the ultimate meaninglessness and futility of life.

What you say could easily be similarly applied to those who proselytize Mormonism:  the primary motivation is wanting companionship in their despair and misery. Once someone is convinced that they can only having a loving interactive relationships through a belief in God, what’s left? They then need validation that there is no faith, hope, charity outside of God-belief. They need validation that a belief in God and a more glorious world is the only way to escape meaninglessness and futility of life.

Either way, it's probably best to not try to paint others in a corner. Usually when you do that, you find yourself cornered, too.

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19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That is a stunningly arrogant statement. How do you know whether other people have a relationship with God, or not?

Well, speaking for myself, I've had people (more than one) tell me that they never had that kind of relationship with God and that was one of the reasons they finally stopped believing.  If I'm remembering right, we've had posters on here who have said as much after they left.

But besides that, I think the whole premise of his post is that we can't assume things about people's relationship with God.  I'm not sure how that is "stunningly arrogant".  Can you clarify?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Very few posters seem motivated to want to help, to bring the apostates home. 

I think folks (on all sides) can be reluctant to enumerate the circumstances (in a helpful way) leading to apostatizing.

Some of this I feel comes from the assumption that - if there is an incomplete relationship with God, then there must be fault (either w/ God or the prospective believer). This is silly.

I've often seen what I interpret as this: What God sends lands out of reach. I've learned that drawing an immediate conclusion here (or assigning blame) is counterproductive. Perhaps His child will eventually lengthen their reach or perhaps learning to see in that direction will lead to growth.

Perhaps having needed blessings rest just out of reach will, reasonably, seem baffling and unhelpful, decade after decade. Personally, I can accept and be unhappy with this at the same time.

For a different sort of case - I know one longtime devout member who left over a single doctrinal conflict. This is puzzling to me. I have tons of conflicts - in every sort of belief I have. It's what follows thinking things thru. I suspect the same type of laser-focused understanding that brought him close to God also unwound that relationship.

Edited by Chum
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25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

How do you know whether other people have a relationship with God, or not?

I listen to them. I also believe them.

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I've often wondered what the need is for 7 year olds to run around convincing other 7 year olds that Santa does not exist. 

I think it's pride - "I know more than you know". To them  I say, leave it alone.  It's nice to believe in something.  

Some of it's probably pride at having knowledge someone else doesn't, and some of it is probably wanting to mitigate the loss that knowledge created by spreading it around so they aren't the only one having to deal with it.

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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Well, speaking for myself, I've had people (more than one) tell me that they never had that kind of relationship with God and that was one of the reasons they finally stopped believing.  If I'm remembering right, we've had posters on here who have said as much after they left.

But besides that, I think the whole premise of his post is that we can't assume things about people's relationship with God.  I'm not sure how that is "stunningly arrogant".  Can you clarify?

He said we can't presume that other people have a relationship with God, and those who don't develop such a relationship tend to be the ones who leave. I stand by my characterizing that as extremely arrogant. 

Lest anyone think I'm offended, I'm not, but I'm hoping people think a little before they post stuff like that. 

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That probably sounds harsher than I mean, but I’m just saying we all want to be right, and sometimes that trumps everything else. 

Yeah, I really want to stop being trapped by that. I blame the inclination on ancient feelings of helplessness.

Edited by Chum
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6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

He said we can't presume that other people have a relationship with God, and those who don't develop such a relationship tend to be the ones who leave. I stand by my characterizing that as extremely arrogant. 

Lest anyone think I'm offended, I'm not, but I'm hoping people think a little before they post stuff like that. 

Okay so what I said was

45 minutes ago, Chum said:

This may come with a presumption that former believers had that sort of relationship with God.

My phrasing is intentional here. I am omitting qualifiers like 'all' 'many' 'some' because I don't have any idea where the percentages might lie. I do know that this sort of experience is common as I frequently hear about it from folks who have been there.

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