Is god a mormon?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Then you probably know who Don Martin was???

Though I am quasi-omnipotent, unfortunately this is one of very few bits of knowledge which are not rattling around in my cranium.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Though I am quasi-omnipotent, unfortunately this is one of very few bits of knowledge which are not rattling around in my cranium.

I am guessing this man given the link of your cartoon to MAD Magazine. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Martin_(cartoonist)

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I am guessing this man given the link of your cartoon to MAD Magazine. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Martin_(cartoonist)

Right on! Don Martin was my adolescent hero. I can still remember many of his cartoons. He was the Gary Larson of the 50s and 60s. 
 

Vootie and Wockle were made-up words spoken by a Mad Magazine cartoon chimpanzee in a parody of NBC TV news personality Dave Garroway.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

I am guessing this man given the link of your cartoon to MAD Magazine. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Martin_(cartoonist)

Dang! Sure! THAT Don Martin!

What? Me worry?

[Stargazer]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:46 PM, Teancum said:

Yes, yes I know also  that you are indoctrinated with religious dogma that has no proof other than your feelings and faith.  But you are convinced you have the ultimate of God's truth. What a dilemma.

I'm not actually indoctrinated. I came to this rather later in life than the Primary children do, and in quite different circumstances. 

I was "led" to it by means that I find it extremely hard to attribute to random chance, and it went very much against the grain, as it were. The extent of my prior religious experience was my great grandmother reading to me out of the Bible when I was seven while I lived for a few months with her after my mother died and before my father remarried. My parents weren't religious at all, and before I joined the LDS church at age 14 on my initiative and with my father's reluctant permission, I hadn't been involved with any church.  I was not someone who just believed what mommy and daddy and his Primary teacher told him without questioning and never graduated past it. 

There is no dilemma, by the way. Nothing that I have learned in the course of my life contradicts anything truthful I've learned in Church, and especially nothing I've learned through the Spirit. There are always questions without present answers, but that describes the state of everyone, including atheist scientists. And there's more to it than just "feelings". I know the difference between emotionally pleasing warm fuzzies and the Spirit of the Lord. You're welcome to believe you know there is no Spirit and there are only meaningless warm fuzzies, if you need to, but my experience contradicts this.

On 6/2/2021 at 6:46 PM, Teancum said:

Science has pretty much proven humans 50,000 years ago were as fully human as you and I. 

No, it hasn't. All it can say is that people living 50K years ago have similar bodily structure and cranial size. Whether their brains back then were as sophisticated as ours is pretty much impossible to prove, due to lack of preserved brains, and time machines to go back and administer standardized tests. But what if they were just as sophisticated? Not a problem. Adam and Eve lived how long ago? 50,000 years ago? 20,000? I don't hold to Archbishop Ussher's chronological method of counting up the ages of the Patriarchs to determine the date of the Garden of Eden. Much of the creation story is clearly allegorical. And evolution doesn't contradict it, in my humble opinion. 

And what about the whales? Do they have souls? The sperm whale has the largest brain of any extant animal. Are sperm whales more intelligent than humans? Or is their intelligence just different from us? God knows. But I don't.

On 6/2/2021 at 6:46 PM, Teancum said:

So yea I do know they were fully human. 

I don't think you do. 🙂 I myself admit I don't know, though it seems reasonable. One can accept it on faith, based on reasonability and science, but that's really the extent of our certainty.  Occam's Razor is a means of decision, and the simplest conclusion is that they were fully human. But as fully human as us?  Not been proven.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not actually indoctrinated. I came to this rather later in life than the Primary children do, and in quite different circumstances. 

I was "led" to it by means that I find it extremely hard to attribute to random chance, and it went very much against the grain, as it were. The extent of my prior religious experience was my great grandmother reading to me out of the Bible when I was seven while I lived for a few months with her after my mother died and before my father remarried. My parents weren't religious at all, and before I joined the LDS church at age 14 on my initiative and with my father's reluctant permission, I hadn't been involved with any church.  I was not someone who just believed what mommy and daddy and his Primary teacher told him without questioning and never graduated past it. 

There is no dilemma, by the way. Nothing that I have learned in the course of my life contradicts anything truthful I've learned in Church, and especially nothing I've learned through the Spirit. There are always questions without present answers, but that describes the state of everyone, including atheist scientists. And there's more to it than just "feelings". I know the difference between emotionally pleasing warm fuzzies and the Spirit of the Lord. You're welcome to believe you know there is no Spirit and there are only meaningless warm fuzzies, if you need to, but my experience contradicts this.

No, it hasn't. All it can say is that people living 50K years ago have similar bodily structure and cranial size. Whether their brains back then were as sophisticated as ours is pretty much impossible to prove, due to lack of preserved brains, and time machines to go back and administer standardized tests. But what if they were just as sophisticated? Not a problem. Adam and Eve lived how long ago? 50,000 years ago? 20,000? I don't hold to Archbishop Ussher's chronological method of counting up the ages of the Patriarchs to determine the date of the Garden of Eden. Much of the creation story is clearly allegorical. And evolution doesn't contradict it, in my humble opinion. 

And what about the whales? Do they have souls? The sperm whale has the largest brain of any extant animal. Are sperm whales more intelligent than humans? Or is their intelligence just different from us? God knows. But I don't.

I don't think you do. 🙂 I myself admit I don't know, though it seems reasonable. One can accept it on faith, based on reasonability and science, but that's really the extent of our certainty.  Occam's Razor is a means of decision, and the simplest conclusion is that they were fully human. But as fully human as us?  Not been proven.

You can be indocrinated even if you did not grow up in a religion. As for being able to distinguish emotional experience that you think is God speaking to you vs internally generated emotions there is no way to test this. If you interpret them this way that is fine for you but nobody else. I have had experiences like this that I once interpreted the same way you do.  But since they related to items that I can no longer believe and were based on limited information  I understand them differently but still hold them as special in some ways.

Do whales have souls?  I don't know if any creature has souls at least in the way you are likely defining souls. As for humans 50,000 years ago I suggest you read Guns, Germs and Steal as well as Sapiens.  I think you may be surprised at what you learn.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not actually indoctrinated. I came to this rather later in life than the Primary children do, and in quite different circumstances. 

I was "led" to it by means that I find it extremely hard to attribute to random chance, and it went very much against the grain, as it were. The extent of my prior religious experience was my great grandmother reading to me out of the Bible when I was seven while I lived for a few months with her after my mother died and before my father remarried. My parents weren't religious at all, and before I joined the LDS church at age 14 on my initiative and with my father's reluctant permission, I hadn't been involved with any church.  I was not someone who just believed what mommy and daddy and his Primary teacher told him without questioning and never graduated past it. 

There is no dilemma, by the way. Nothing that I have learned in the course of my life contradicts anything truthful I've learned in Church, and especially nothing I've learned through the Spirit. There are always questions without present answers, but that describes the state of everyone, including atheist scientists. And there's more to it than just "feelings". I know the difference between emotionally pleasing warm fuzzies and the Spirit of the Lord. You're welcome to believe you know there is no Spirit and there are only meaningless warm fuzzies, if you need to, but my experience contradicts this.

No, it hasn't. All it can say is that people living 50K years ago have similar bodily structure and cranial size. Whether their brains back then were as sophisticated as ours is pretty much impossible to prove, due to lack of preserved brains, and time machines to go back and administer standardized tests. But what if they were just as sophisticated? Not a problem. Adam and Eve lived how long ago? 50,000 years ago? 20,000? I don't hold to Archbishop Ussher's chronological method of counting up the ages of the Patriarchs to determine the date of the Garden of Eden. Much of the creation story is clearly allegorical. And evolution doesn't contradict it, in my humble opinion. 

And what about the whales? Do they have souls? The sperm whale has the largest brain of any extant animal. Are sperm whales more intelligent than humans? Or is their intelligence just different from us? God knows. But I don't.

I don't think you do. 🙂 I myself admit I don't know, though it seems reasonable. One can accept it on faith, based on reasonability and science, but that's really the extent of our certainty.  Occam's Razor is a means of decision, and the simplest conclusion is that they were fully human. But as fully human as us?  Not been proven.

Well said.

[Stargazer]

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You can be indocrinated even if you did not grow up in a religion.

Of course you can. 

My understanding of the word "indoctrinate" is to teach a person or a group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. Now try to convince me that I have uncritically accepted what I believe. I will assert that I do know what critical thinking is, and having applied it to what I have been taught, have read, heard, and learned through the Spirit, I am more convinced than ever that Jesus is the Christ, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Your mileage in this has varied from mine, and oh, well.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

As for being able to distinguish emotional experience that you think is God speaking to you vs internally generated emotions there is no way to test this.

In terms of an objective scientific test, you're right. When pure information that later turns out to be knowledge flows into your mind from apparently nowhere, one might try to determine whether it was from God or from something else. Typically, these insights or messages come on their own schedule and aren't really subject to pushbutton action. Hence they aren't easily subjected to experimentation. If God were a test tube, then maybe we could do experiments to see if He is repeatable. But He isn't a test tube. He is Intelligence, Will, and Love.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If you interpret them this way that is fine for you but nobody else. I have had experiences like this that I once interpreted the same way you do.  But since they related to items that I can no longer believe and were based on limited information  I understand them differently but still hold them as special in some ways.

I can understand how you would hold such things as special, even if you don't understand them in the same way now. It's unfortunate. I can put myself in your shoes to a certain degree, and if I were to lose my belief, I think I would still hold the memories of those experiences as special "in some ways," too.  In a private communication with a member of this board who had lost his faith, his wish for me was that I would not have to experience what he has. Perhaps some who have lost their faith are more glad than sad. I'm very sure I would be sad.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Do whales have souls?  I don't know if any creature has souls at least in the way you are likely defining souls. As for humans 50,000 years ago I suggest you read Guns, Germs and Steal as well as Sapiens.  I think you may be surprised at what you learn.

Hardly. I read the book when it first came out. It's brilliant. It doesn't conflict with anything I believe -- although I don't necessarily uncritically accept everything he posits (nor does every anthropologist who has read the book). 

By the way, 50,000 years ago is just a convenient figure, but it's more of a placeholder for the moment when humans first entered the figurative or literal Garden of Eden as Son and Daughter of Man. Whenever that was.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

As for being able to distinguish emotional experience that you think is God speaking to you vs internally generated emotions there is no way to test this. If you interpret them this way that is fine for you but nobody else. I have had experiences like this that I once interpreted the same way you do.  But since they related to items that I can no longer believe and were based on limited information  I understand them differently but still hold them as special in some ways.

I pray that some day you will understand that everything "important" in your life is based on emotions like this

Picking a mate is one, picking your vocation, picking your politics, and finding what gives your life meaning, ideas about morality and even financial decisions are often validly based on "what seems right" to you, and not what is testable empirically, but only on what "feels right"

People will even pick scientism as a path based on their subjective gut reaction, irrationally

You knew that long ago and I hope some day you will again see the difference between what is provable and what is right for you subjectively.

[mfbukowski]

Error

Edited June 6, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Damien the Leper]

On 5/28/2021 at 1:14 PM, InCognitus said:

God comes to church with me every week, so if he's not already a member he certainly is a persistent investigator. 

You should experience the Lord during a powerful Eucharist. God knows how to throw down in one of those.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:26 PM, mfbukowski said:

I pray that some day you will understand that everything "important" in your life is based on emotions like this

Picking a mate is one, picking your vocation, picking your politics, and finding what gives your life meaning, ideas about morality and even financial decisions are often validly based on "what seems right" to you, and not what is testable empirically, but only on what "feels right"

People will even pick scientism as a path based on their subjective gut reaction, irrationally.  They might think that religion is about scientific facts, and that idea cannot even be proven by science, making the proposition self contradictory 

You knew that long ago,  and I hope some day you will again see the difference between what is provable objectively and what is right for you subjectively.

 

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

You should experience the Lord during a powerful Eucharist. God knows how to throw down in one of those.

Trust me, we have those too.

Come and see.

[Damien the Leper]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Trust me, we have those too.

Come and see.

Symbolic presence Eucharist is not a Eucharist. Bread and water, grape juice and cracker, etc. will never make the cut.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Symbolic presence Eucharist is not a Eucharist. Bread and water, grape juice and cracker, etc. will never make the cut.

Sorry brother but you don't know what you are talking about.  😊

[Damien the Leper]

On 6/7/2021 at 11:18 PM, mfbukowski said:

Sorry brother but you don't know what you are talking about.  😊

Nah, bro. Catholics and Orthodox got it right.

[jkwilliams]

25 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Nah, bro. Catholics and Orthodox got it right.

Or you could both be wrong.

[Teancum]

On 6/4/2021 at 2:24 AM, mfbukowski said:

On 6/1/2021 at 9:42 AM, teddyaware said:

Am I correct in presuming you believe that after we die we forever cease to exist as conscious intelligent beings? If this is the case, what’s the harm if prior to the endless oblivion that follows death if some choose to believe life as a conscious being continues after death, that this life is part of a glorious divine plan with a wonderful destiny, and that a just being of perfect intelligence, wisdom and love presides over this creation? Is there some greater appreciation for life and greater potential for peace and happiness if one believes life is ultimately futile, meaningless and of no lasting consequence? What’s the advantage is there in living life with the belief that faith, hope and charity don’t endure forever and that existence is nothing more than a bizarre cosmic accident?

Precisely!   Pascal's Wager.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager#:~:text=Pascal's wager is an argument,either exists or does not.

But I have made that point with him more than once, with no effect

 

First Teddy's presumption about what I believe  is inaccurate. I do not know either way what happens at death.  Nor does he. Nor do you. You have strong faith and belief but you do not know. You have has spiritual metaphysical experiences which you interpret to strengthen your faith and gives you personal conviction you are on the right track but you do not know. I still hope for something more. I will be happy to find out if there is.  And I am pretty sure it is nothing like what anyone who thinks they know what it is. And if there is a God of some sort I believe and hope it is extremely kind and merciful in much more of a way than most religions make God out  to be.

 

Pascal's wager. Meh. Look you can live your life anyway you want. If you live it based on a fantasy and it gives you happiness and when you die there is still nothing then so what?  It is all fine.  But there are certainly some major flaws in Teddy's premise. One does not need to  believe in a divine plan to find life meaningful and of lasting consequence though I know this is a favorite canard of religious people and they like using it against skeptics. It does not hold water.

 

The other problem is for most avid religious believers and practitioners their belief is not limited to what is good for just them. It is sought to be either imposed on influenced on others. Even on believers of other faiths. One need look no further than this board in order to witness the utter arrogant certainty and piety that so many of the  LDS true believers assert that they know about all sorts of things.  And others need to believe it too or suffer in  the eternities one way or another.  And of course adherents of other  religious traditions are not so much different and would happily impose their beliefs on you and condemn you to utter eternal suffering some miserable eternal hell because you have the wrong Jesus or don't accept Islam.  This forms a world view that, IMO, can be unhealthy to the person who hold them, their family and their community. On a macro level there has been plenty of blood and horror perpetuated on the human family by religions fighting with others even amongst those of different sects of the same general faith system.

 

And while I don't know Teddy personally (he may be a great guy) what I see of his postings here convinces me I am much better off and happier than I would be if I became the holy roller load preacher pulpit pounding believer that he seems to be.  If he really views the world they way he posts it does not seem to me he is a happy fellow nor does it seems he has compassion and love for those who believe differently to me.  That seems a direct result of his faith.  If is it I will pass. As noted I could  be wrong. We only see a narrow side of each other here. But what I see from Teddy and others at times makes me appreciate where I am at.  In fact when I start doubting the direction or path I am on I just need to spend a little time here to convince me I would never and could never go back to what the LDS believer I was. I could maybe participate as a more nuanced practitioner if the culture fostered that but it does not and I cannot sit in the pews and not be honest and authentic any more.  Though I am considering looking at the CoC.  But the closest congregations is three hours away.

 

Last of all my take is at least now, I think living with reality is better than what Teddy proposes. It hurt to realize Santa was not real. But I matured because of it. As Paul said when I was a child I though like a child, but now I am a man....  I do miss the comforting assurance of God, Jesus, the after life and all what I held true in the LDS world view.  But I had to face what I perceive as truth and reality rather than a hope in a fantasy.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Teancum

[jkwilliams]

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 

First Teddy's presumption about what I believe  is inaccurate. I do not know either way what happens at death.  Nor does he. Nor do you. You have strong faith and belief but you do not know. You have has spiritual metaphysical experiences which you interpret to strengthen your faith and gives you personal conviction you are on the right track but you do not know. I still hope for something more. I will be happy to find out if there is.  And I am pretty sure it is nothing like what anyone who thinks they know what it is. And if there is a God of some sort I believe and hope it is extremely kind and merciful in much more of a way than most religions make God out  to be.

 

Pascal's wager. Meh. Look you can live your life anyway you want. If you live it based on a fantasy and it gives you happiness and when you die there is still nothing then so what?  It is all fine.  But there are certainly some major flaws in Teddy's premise. One does not need to  believe in a divine plan to find life meaningful and of lasting consequence though I know this is a favorite canard of religious people and they like using it against skeptics. It does not hold water.

 

The other problem is for most avid religious believers and practitioners their belief is not limited to what is good for just them. It is sought to be either imposed on influenced on others. Even on believers of other faiths. One need look no further than this board in order to witness the utter arrogant certainty and piety that so many of the  LDS true believers assert that they know about all sorts of things.  And others need to believe it too or suffer in  the eternities one way or another.  And of course adherents of other  religious traditions are not so much different and would happily impose their beliefs on you and condemn you to utter eternal suffering some miserable eternal hell because you have the wrong Jesus or don't accept Islam.  This forms a world view that, IMO, can be unhealthy to the person who hold them, their family and their community. On a macro level there has been plenty of blood and horror perpetuated on the human family by religions fighting with others even amongst those of different sects of the same general faith system.

 

And while I don't know Teddy personally (he may be a great guy) what I see of his postings here convinces me I am much better off and happier than I would be if I became the holy roller load preacher pulpit pounding believer that he seems to be.  If he really views the world they way he posts it does not seem to me he is a happy fellow nor does it seems he has compassion and love for those who believe differently to me.  That seems a direct result of his faith.  If is it I will pass. As noted I could  be wrong. We only see a narrow side of each other here. But what I see from Teddy and others at times makes me appreciate where I am at.  In fact when I start doubting the direction or path I am on I just need to spend a little time here to convince me I would never and could never go back to what the LDS believer I was. I could maybe participate as a more nuanced practitioner if the culture fostered that but it does not and I cannot sit in the pews and not be honest and authentic any more.  Though I am considering looking at the CoC.  But the closest congregations is three hours away.

 

Last of all my take is at least now, I think living with reality is better than what Teddy proposes. It hurt to realize Santa was not real. But I matured because of it. As Paul said when I was a child I though like a child, but now I am a man....  I do miss the comforting assurance of God, Jesus, the after life and all what I held true in the LDS world view.  But I had to face what I perceive as truth and reality rather than a hope in a fantasy.

I really wish you wouldn’t be so shy about saying what you really think. 😂

Bottom line for me is that I’m good if other people believe and are happy. I just can’t believe anymore, and I realized after the fact that I wasn’t very happy. 

I’m with you that life without Mormonism is emphatically not meaningless. I like being able to make my own meaning in my life instead of relying on someone else’s prescription of what is meaningful. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by jkwilliams

[Teancum]

23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I really wish you wouldn’t be so shy about saying what you really think. 😂

Bottom line for me is that I’m good if other people believe and are happy. I just can’t believe anymore, and I realized after the fact that I wasn’t very happy. 

I’m with you that life without Mormonism is emphatically not meaningless. I like being able to make my own meaning in my life instead of relying on someone else’s prescription of what is meaningful. 

I tried to be polite and just share my thoughts.  Again, Teddy may be a great guy.  I think most people here I would very much enjoy having lunch with and talking to about all this stuff. So I am just looking at the Teddy I see here.  And the  other ideas are just what I think about now.  The unraveling of Mormonism was one of the most painful experiences, if not the most, of my life. If there was a way to feel honest, happy and good about it I would go back to it in a heart beat. But IMO, it is simply not the truth nor what it claims. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I tried to be polite and just share my thoughts.  Again, Teddy may be a great guy.  I think most people here I would very much enjoy having lunch with and talking to about all this stuff. So I am just looking at the Teddy I see here.  And the  other ideas are just what I think about now.  The unraveling of Mormonism was one of the most painful experiences, if not the most, of my life. If there was a way to feel honest, happy and good about it I would go back to it in a heart beat. But IMO, it is simply not the truth nor what it claims. 

Definitely the most painful experience of my life, too. Yesterday a friend surprised me with news that his wife has left the church, whereas he’s still very much a believer. My first thought was, “Oh, no!” Not because I think she’s wrong but because I know how hard it is to make a marriage work in those situations. I guess I suck at being a hardened apostate, but I feel bad for them. 

[Baba Lou]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I tried to be polite and just share my thoughts.  Again, Teddy may be a great guy.  I think most people here I would very much enjoy having lunch with and talking to about all this stuff. So I am just looking at the Teddy I see here.  And the  other ideas are just what I think about now.  The unraveling of Mormonism was one of the most painful experiences, if not the most, of my life. If there was a way to feel honest, happy and good about it I would go back to it in a heart beat. But IMO, it is simply not the truth nor what it claims. 

You are entitled to your opinion every bit as much as I am entitled to mine, whether you are right or wrong.  I would just like you to be able to know whether you are right or you are wrong, because if you don't know either way, how would you ever know?

I know a lot of things that some other people don't know.  Can you relate at all on any level?  I know the gospel is true, for example, because our Father has told me the gospel is true.  I hope someday you will; know that as well as I do.

[Teancum]

8 minutes ago, Baba Lou said:

You are entitled to your opinion every bit as much as I am entitled to mine, whether you are right or wrong.  I would just like you to be able to know whether you are right or you are wrong, because if you don't know either way, how would you ever know?

I know a lot of things that some other people don't know.  Can you relate at all on any level?  I know the gospel is true, for example, because our Father has told me the gospel is true.  I hope someday you will; know that as well as I do.

Yep I think it was clear that I was speaking my opinion.  Yes I once believed I knew like you think you do.  I am very skeptical that you know the LDS Gospel is true the way we understand what knowing and true means.  And thank you for illustrating perfectly why such approaches to religion concerns me.  

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Definitely the most painful experience of my life, too. Yesterday a friend surprised me with news that his wife has left the church, whereas he’s still very much a believer. My first thought was, “Oh, no!” Not because I think she’s wrong but because I know how hard it is to make a marriage work in those situations. I guess I suck at being a hardened apostate, but I feel bad for them. 

My wife's belief is in the unraveling phase and I actually feel quite bad for her watching the pain it is causing her. And to be on record, I never pushed  anything on her and totally supported her activity and belief.  Her issues started with ore social issues but now she  is drilling into the history.  She is a bit in the angry stage right now.

[Baba Lou]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yep I think it was clear that I was speaking my opinion.  Yes I once believed I knew like you think you do.  I am very skeptical that you know the LDS Gospel is true the way we understand what knowing and true means.  And thank you for illustrating perfectly why such approaches to religion concerns me.  

With God as the person we trust for our knowledge of what is true and what isn't we have a totally foolproof way to know what is true and what isn't.  People often disagree with each other but God has never disagreed with himself or our Lord or the Holy Ghost.  So now you have at least been told how to know what is true and what isn't, regardless of whoever may disagree.