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Two news items re: Latter-day saints and catholics


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Today I came across two separate news articles pertaining to interactions between Latter-day Saints and our Roman Catholic friends.

Story 1: Singing at the Cathedral of the Madeleine strengthens cantor's faith

Quote

SALT LAKE CITY – Like all musicians, John Richardson brings his own unique experiences to his job – that of cantor at the Cathedral of the Madeleine. However, his experiences are unusual: Richardson has had little formal music training and, as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he faced, in many ways, a steep learning curve when he started working, he said.

Prior to being hired in May 2020 by the cathedral’s assistant music director Dr. Gabriele Terrone, Richardson was unfamiliar with Catholic rites and music. While Terrone essentially gave him a crash course in the liturgy, Richardson said his first experiences were somewhat rocky and he was grateful for the patience of those Mass-goers who were present.

“I remember my first Mass; there were lots of times when everybody would kneel, and I would just stay standing at the cantor’s stand because I had no idea what to do,” said Richardson, now a senior at Brigham Young University. “It was a lot to take in at the beginning.”

Richardson is one of four adult cantors at the cathedral. He is assigned to sing at two Masses every other weekend but sometimes sings more often. He also leads at weddings, funerals, Quinceañera and other events. Having served a mission for his church in Ecuador, Richardson is fluent in Spanish and has been able to lead at the Spanish Masses.

The second story could be seen as positive, but the website it is on really wants to make it look bad: Mormon Elder Lectures Vatican on Mission

Quote

VATICAN CITY (ChurchMilitant.com) - In a historic first, the Vatican invited a leading elder of one of the world's most aggressive proselytizing cults to address its global health conference on the topic of "mission," despite Pope Francis' repeated repudiation of "proselytization."

 

Elder William K. Jackson told the Pontifical Council for Culture's "Mind, Body and Soul" health summit Saturday that "medical missionary work is nearly always well-meaning but has not always been well-received."

Religions engage in medical missions "because it is the right thing to do" and "many believe they will be judged and held accountable for how they treat others, for how they use their talents to lift the arms that hang down and strengthen the feeble knees," Jackson said.

But unlike Catholic medical missionaries who minister to all who are sick, Mormon "health missionaries" are "men and women with medical training called to coordinate the health of proselyting missionaries throughout the world," the Mormon website reveals.

Moreover, missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) — a sponsor of the Vatican's health forum — see Catholics as targets of proselytism and new missionary efforts being invested in converting Catholics in the historic Catholic city of Rome.

"ChurchMilitant.com" eh?

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Upvote 2
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5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"ChurchMilitant.com" eh?

Church Militant (website)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 
 
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This article is about the American Catholic media organisation. For the British Anglican campaigning group, see League of the Church Militant.
Church Militant
Church Militant logo.png
Type of site
News and opinion
Traditional Catholic
Owner St. Michael's Media, Inc.
Founder(s) Michael Voris
Revenue USD$2.8 million (December 2018)[1]
URL churchmilitant.com
Registration Optional
Current status Active

St. Michael's Media is a 501(c)(3) organization which operates in the State of Michigan under the officially-registered assumed name of Church Militant[2] via the website ChurchMilitant.com. Church Militant is a lay apostolate and news website founded by Michael Voris. It was known as Real Catholic TV until 2012, when the Archdiocese of Detroit notified Michael Voris and Real Catholic TV that "it does not regard them as being authorized to use the word 'Catholic' to identify or promote their public activities".[3]. This is possibly due to what some view as an overly political view of the Church, as evidenced by Voris' constant criticism of the Pope. Voris responded by changing the name to Church Militant.[4][5] While Church Militant makes use of a paywall and offers premium content to subscribers, the website's main feature is its free segment The Vortex, simulcast on YouTube and hosted by Voris. As of December 2018, 34 employees create videos and write content for Church Militant.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Militant_(website)

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On the second point, Pope Francis is on record as stating:

Quote

"[T]heological dialogue must continue, even if it will not be easy. Personally, I believe that enthusiasm must shift towards common prayer and the works of mercy -- work done together to help the sick, the poor, and the imprisoned. To do something together is a high and effective form of dialogue. I also think about education. It is important to work together and not in a sectarian way. There is a policy we should have clear in every case: to proselytize in the ecclesial field is a sin. Benedict XVI told us that the Church does not grow by proselytism, but by attraction. Proselytism is a sinful attitude. It would be like transforming the Church into an organization. Speaking, praying, working together: this is the path that we must take. Look, in ecumenism the one who never makes a mistake is the enemy, the devil. When Christians are persecuted and murdered, they are chosen because they are Christians, not because they are Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Catholics or Orthodox. An ecumenism of blood exists.

Francis interview: Excerpts on ecumenism, terrorism and gossip | National Catholic Reporter (ncronline.org)

I think he is fundamentally right about that--I don't think you can congruously say non-Mormon Christians are your brothers in Christ and preach to them that in order to get right with God, they need to abandon their version of Christianity, get baptized in Mormonism, and do the Mormon version of Christianity. People find it offensive to be proselytized to.

What Elder Jackson is referring to as a "medical mission" is not clear to me from this article. Are most LDS medical missionaries simply doctors around the world serving the medical needs of full-time Mormon missionaries? Or are they going to remotes villages in Uganda to provide life-altering services that the people there would not otherwise receive? Those are two different things.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"ChurchMilitant.com" eh?

It is a Catholic organization with ties to traditionalism and with far right leaning political views that tends to eschew politeness. I wouldn't associate myself with them.

The name is actually taken from Catholic ecclesiology. The Church Militant are Christians living, the Church Triumphant are Christians in heaven, and the Church Penitent are Christians in purgatory.

I don't have time to respond more to the OP, but I'll be back :) 

Edited by MiserereNobis
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Today I came across two separate news articles pertaining to interactions between Latter-day Saints and our Roman Catholic friends.

Story 1: Singing at the Cathedral of the Madeleine strengthens cantor's faith

The second story could be seen as positive, but the website it is on really wants to make it look bad: Mormon Elder Lectures Vatican on Mission

"ChurchMilitant.com" eh?

Thanks,

-Smac

Church Militant is far right, not a fan.  To be fair, I could see how some could possibly take offense to this if all the health missionaries do is take care of their own.  Then again, outside of DI I really have no idea about the inner workings of the LDS churches charities, just that they do a lot and often work through other orgs like Catholic Charities, The Salvation Army etc.  I'd have no qualms at all seeing you guys with Catholic medical people doing things like vaccination clinics, etc.  Then again, I'm all for people getting along.  I've seen elders in food banks handing stuff out, sure you could get some pre-med guy doing immunizations, nurses doing assessments and what not.  TBH considering there are Catholic facilities here that would be a fantastic way for the LDS medical community to shine volunteer wise, the LDS church could advertise that in Rome.  

Medical Facilities - Order of Malta

Order of Malta Clinic of Northern California

Yes, I am an order of Malta fanboy.  

Edited by poptart
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7 hours ago, smac97 said:

"ChurchMilitant.com" eh?

Thanks,

-Smac

This was one of the organizations that I was warned about prior to my confirmation. Having watched their videos they leave much to be desired. I have friends who are SSPX who want nothing to do with CM. Nasty business that is.

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8 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

This was one of the organizations that I was warned about prior to my confirmation. Having watched their videos they leave much to be desired. I have friends who are SSPX who want nothing to do with CM. Nasty business that is.

It seems like a lot of that stuff usually comes from the states, disgusting.  Are you sspx?  I'm eying a Dominican parish close by personally.  Kinda debating just going to confession and calling it good, seems like everything else in this country is just going down the drain.

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Posted (edited)

"medicalmissionary work is nearly always well-meaning...”

I found that a curious word choice, “nearly always”.   The rest of the time they are part of a larger nefarious plot to use unsuspecting missionaries as medical guinea pigs in an effort to create a drug which gives missionaries super human strength to overtake the Swiss guard at Vatican.

Edited by pogi
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Posted (edited)

From the first story about the cantor:

Quote

“I’ve really enjoyed being in that space where they create such a holy and sacred atmosphere,” he said. “It is all just centered on Jesus Christ and on his sacrifice and on his grace. It’s hard not to feel a certain amount of spirituality and love when you’re surrounded, and all your senses, the smell from the incense, and the sights and the sounds, just everything is centering your entire body’s experience on Jesus. Definitely, for me, it has been a huge positive. I have learned things about my own faith and my own belief in Jesus Christ and my understanding of him. I have sincerely enjoyed my time in terms of my faith and spirituality while at the cathedral.”

Those are kind words and I am glad that he is finding greater faith at Mass.

I like how he pointed out that all of the senses are used to center your experience on Christ. To use some Platonic thinking (go away, Mark :P), the good, the true, and the beautiful all lead us to God. It's one reason I attend traditional Latin Mass -- the beautiful is focused on, not forgotten (or even worse, despised) as too often happens with the new Mass.

I imagine LDS have similar experiences with beauty inside the temple. Is there music as part of the temple ceremonies? If so, is it like sacrament meeting music? I imagine you probably don't use incense...

Edited by MiserereNobis
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19 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

From the first story about the cantor:

Those are kind words and I am glad that he is finding greater faith at Mass.

I like how he pointed out that all of the senses are used to center your experience on Christ. To use some Platonic thinking (go away, Mark :P), the good, the true, and the beautiful all lead us to God. It's one reason I attend traditional Latin Mass -- the beautiful is focused on, not forgotten (or even worse, despised) as too often happens with the new Mass.

I imagine LDS have similar experiences with beauty inside the temple. Is there music as part of the temple ceremonies? If so, is it like sacrament meeting music? I imagine you probably don't use incense...

My family and I listened to this interview on BYU radio a few weeks ago and I loved it.  At first I was sure the young man was actually a Catholic, because that program is almost always about interviewing people from different faith traditions.  He spoke so worshipfully of the experience each week, you could tell he loved it.

And while there music isn't a part of the different temple ceremonies, there are places in the temple where you will always hear organ music playing softly in the background.

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

"medicalmissionary work is nearly always well-meaning...”

I found that a curious word choice, “nearly always”.   The rest of the time they are part of a larger nefarious plot to use unsuspecting missionaries as medical guinea pigs in an effort to create a drug which gives missionaries super human strength to overtake the Swiss guard at Vatican.

Hope someone livestreams that fight.  You never mess with the Swiss, they have everyone's money lol.

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

"medicalmissionary work is nearly always well-meaning...”

I found that a curious word choice, “nearly always”.   The rest of the time they are part of a larger nefarious plot to use unsuspecting missionaries as medical guinea pigs in an effort to create a drug which gives missionaries super human strength to overtake the Swiss guard at Vatican.

The missions they are talking about are the short-term missions. Except for the scams (large and petty) that sometimes show up I suspect the real gap is between “well meaning” and “well doing”. There has been a lot of rethinking over the years. They emphasize more training local medical staff over coming in and trying to solve all the problems in two weeks.  I do remember a story about a medical missionary who had no real medical training but he went ahead and did surgery and ended up killing some children. Can’t find it though.

There is also a rethink going on in churches about mission trips in general. These usually involve fundraising money and going out and building a church or repainting a building or teaching some Bible classes or whatever for a few weeks. Think a very involved and long Eagle project that takes a week except you do it in Mexico or Costa Rica. The impact is generally nominal compared to what the money used could have done directly and too much emphasis is put on the experience. 

Our mission model doesn’t work this way so it doesn’t really apply.

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55 minutes ago, poptart said:

Hope someone livestreams that fight.  You never mess with the Swiss, they have everyone's money lol.

The have everyone's secrets too but at least they share those.

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12 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

This was one of the organizations that I was warned about prior to my confirmation. Having watched their videos they leave much to be desired. I have friends who are SSPX who want nothing to do with CM. Nasty business that is.

Damien, hi. There is some short, obscure, but relevant history about Church Militant, which followed the period when it was known as Real Catholic TV. Less than ten years ago, Michael Voris was welcoming in his interviews with pro-SSPX parties. In 2012, the Archdiocese of Detroit, where he operated, denied the organization the use of the term "Catholic", and a little later the studio space he had been renting for production was not going to be renewed. According to the article listed below, Voris' change in attitude to the Society coincided with a name change, when his operation was bankrolled by a wealthy adherent of the Fraternity of St. Peter.

https://akacatholic.com/how-michael-voris-rolls/

Many Catholic Traditionalists are on journeys. My own positions have developed in the last ten years with regards to the crisis in the Catholic Church. I would not want to be a professional Catholic. I would not want to be in the position of gaining or losing income because my ideas on certain nuances of the crisis were changing. That is a bad situation to be in if one wants to be able to judge the fluid circumstances of the Catholic Church today clearly.

Rory    

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23 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Damien, hi. There is some short, obscure, but relevant history about Church Militant, which followed the period when it was known as Real Catholic TV. Less than ten years ago, Michael Voris was welcoming in his interviews with pro-SSPX parties. In 2012, the Archdiocese of Detroit, where he operated, denied the organization the use of the term "Catholic", and a little later the studio space he had been renting for production was not going to be renewed. According to the article listed below, Voris' change in attitude to the Society coincided with a name change, when his operation was bankrolled by a wealthy adherent of the Fraternity of St. Peter.

https://akacatholic.com/how-michael-voris-rolls/

Many Catholic Traditionalists are on journeys. My own positions have developed in the last ten years with regards to the crisis in the Catholic Church. I would not want to be a professional Catholic. I would not want to be in the position of gaining or losing income because my ideas on certain nuances of the crisis were changing. That is a bad situation to be in if one wants to be able to judge the fluid circumstances of the Catholic Church today clearly.

Rory    

It is certainly disappointing and disheartening that a harsh and bitter member of the Fraternity would act as he has and dangle Voris despite Voris' willingness to be dangled. Before we can address the issues of VCII, we need to address all the infighting that Christ's Church is indulging in.

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5 hours ago, poptart said:

It seems like a lot of that stuff usually comes from the states, disgusting.  Are you sspx?  I'm eying a Dominican parish close by personally.  Kinda debating just going to confession and calling it good, seems like everything else in this country is just going down the drain.

I'm not SSPX nor am I FSSP. I have friends I have become close to in both. 

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19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It is a Catholic organization with ties to traditionalism and with far right leaning political views that tends to eschew politeness. I wouldn't associate myself with them.

The name is actually taken from Catholic ecclesiology. The Church Militant are Christians living, the Church Triumphant are Christians in heaven, and the Church Penitent are Christians in purgatory.

I don't have time to respond more to the OP, but I'll be back :) 

Hey Miserere Nobis,

I have never even considered Michael Voris' politics. So he is a "far right" extremist, politically? Hmmm.  

For you, poptart, and others, who would accuse Voris of "far right" politics, I must admit that if we discussed our politics here, I would almost certainly earn the same accusations.

Would that be a reason to dismiss comments I might have regarding philosophical, spiritual, or ecclesiastical matters?  

Jesse, God bless you, with all good and best wishes to you on this Happy Feast of the Ascension when Catholics rejoice that through Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of man, our human nature, consubstantial with us in that respect, consubstantial with the Father as to the divine nature, now dwells on the right hand of God the Father. (warlike fist pump)

3DOP

 

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50 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Miserere Nobis,

Hey!

51 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

I have never even considered Michael Voris' politics. So he is a "far right" extremist, politically? Hmmm.  

For you, poptart, and others, who would accuse Voris of "far right" politics, I must admit that if we discussed our politics here, I would almost certainly earn the same accusations.

Would that be a reason to dismiss comments I might have regarding philosophical, spiritual, or ecclesiastical matters?  

You're right, I should have left out the mention of his politics. However, his politics appear all over his website, so he definitely blends them with his religious comments. The comment sections of his articles can be quite like cess-pools, too.

52 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Jesse, God bless you, with all good and best wishes to you on this Happy Feast of the Ascension when Catholics rejoice that through Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of man, our human nature, consubstantial with us in that respect, consubstantial with the Father as to the divine nature, now dwells on the right hand of God the Father. (warlike fist pump)

 

God bless you, too! Warlike fist pump right back at you.

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15 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

It is certainly disappointing and disheartening that a harsh and bitter member of the Fraternity would act as he has and dangle Voris despite Voris' willingness to be dangled. Before we can address the issues of VCII, we need to address all the infighting that Christ's Church is indulging in.

I don't know Damien, about how to "unite the clans", if you will. I have friends and acquaintances I admire and respect all over the Traditional Spectrum. I have one young friend, who was in the Society seminary with my son, who is marrying in a few weeks to a young lady from the Fraternity. As we move farther away historically from what necessarily divided us, it will be easier for parties to reconcile. For now, I believe we can be forgiving and tolerant in the absence of strong shepherds who will with one voice admit that there is even a crisis in the Church. No discouragement Damien. No. This has been prophesied to an amazing accuracy, and it is our privilege to find the will of God and do God's will in these our own times. And by the way, these same prophecies announce the eventual triumph of the Immaculate Heart of our Blessed Mother! This apparent falling away of the Church, appears to the Enemy as his revenge. But just as Christ rose from the grave physically, so will Holy Mother Church spiritually, and the gates of Hell will never prevail over her either. We can save our souls as well as at any other time in history. Mediocre parents pass the bread to their children at the dinner table. Our good Father provides our needs "from His table" superabundantly. Ask for His Spirit (our daily bread), everyday and often. It is infallible that He will give Him to whosoever asks! No serpents or stones from our most loving and benevolent Father.

Just for some encouragement on a more natural, visible plain. As more and more young Catholics like yourself are drawing closer to Tradition, as more and more young people are drawn to religious life or the priesthood, the Church will find herself only with them (us). The Vatican II generation no longer talks about a great springtime of evangelization. It is too late. That old crowd have missed the spring, the summer, and the fall. They are now reached the winter of their years and it will be a grace to them if the reality of the Church's folly becomes clear to them before they pass on. The Church cannot generate an unrealized optimism for Vatican II that will reproduce itself century after century. But Tradition, the Apostolic Catholic faith of the Fathers and all the Saints still has all the riches to kindle fires of the heart and mind that can and will be a new beginning, if the Lord tarries His coming. I do not know how long we have. But whether we are here just before a glorious termination and triumph of the Church's sojourn, or the beginnings of a renewal by a remnant of the faith, it is a happy and glorious lot if we have the grace to hold the Catholic faith in our hearts today and forever.

God bless. Happy Feast of the Ascension, Damien. God be with you and give you light and peace.

3DOP 

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23 hours ago, smac97 said:

Today I came across two separate news articles pertaining to interactions between Latter-day Saints and our Roman Catholic friends.

Story 1: Singing at the Cathedral of the Madeleine strengthens cantor's faith

The second story could be seen as positive, but the website it is on really wants to make it look bad: Mormon Elder Lectures Vatican on Mission

"ChurchMilitant.com" eh?

Thanks,

-Smac

Upvote was for the first story. I am very happy for the young man's discovery.

The second story is nasty to LDS (cult talk), while outlining what we already knew about Pope Francis. I have more respect for an evangelistic "cult" that believes in its own mission, than a "Catholic" faith that stifles itself in front of everybody. Who could love a thing like that?

If things keep going like they are, pretty soon it will be considered a sin for Catholics parents to "proselytise" their own children.

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4 hours ago, Chum said:

The have everyone's secrets too but at least they share those.

When you have the money you can more or less do whatever you want.  Golden rule...

2 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

I'm not SSPX nor am I FSSP. I have friends I have become close to in both. 

I'll wander (or did pre covid) into an FSSP place south of me then leave after mass.  I can't stand the politics, can only imagine what it's like now.  Sucks things have to be that way but that's just how it is now.   I've had to make some tough choices like a lot of people are now, we're in for a rough ride.  

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20 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is happening in Germany...is that seen as problematic for the Church in your (Catholics here) view as it is being written up by some?  A possible schism in the future over gay marriage?

https://apnews.com/article/europe-lifestyle-religion-f94e1e634f3b80e209d82ce29927deab

Considering the headache a lot of American Catholics are with Rome, we'll see.  I could care less but then again, I'm a heretical representation of Mother Church. 

Kinda interesting, it's not Saxony giving the church a hard time.  Let's see who gets that one.....

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3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

I don't know Damien, about how to "unite the clans", if you will. I have friends and acquaintances I admire and respect all over the Traditional Spectrum. I have one young friend, who was in the Society seminary with my son, who is marrying in a few weeks to a young lady from the Fraternity. As we move farther away historically from what necessarily divided us, it will be easier for parties to reconcile. For now, I believe we can be forgiving and tolerant in the absence of strong shepherds who will with one voice admit that there is even a crisis in the Church. No discouragement Damien. No. This has been prophesied to an amazing accuracy, and it is our privilege to find the will of God and do God's will in these our own times. And by the way, these same prophecies announce the eventual triumph of the Immaculate Heart of our Blessed Mother! This apparent falling away of the Church, appears to the Enemy as his revenge. But just as Christ rose from the grave physically, so will Holy Mother Church spiritually, and the gates of Hell will never prevail over her either. We can save our souls as well as at any other time in history. Mediocre parents pass the bread to their children at the dinner table. Our good Father provides our needs "from His table" superabundantly. Ask for His Spirit (our daily bread), everyday and often. It is infallible that He will give Him to whosoever asks! No serpents or stones from our most loving and benevolent Father.

Just for some encouragement on a more natural, visible plain. As more and more young Catholics like yourself are drawing closer to Tradition, as more and more young people are drawn to religious life or the priesthood, the Church will find herself only with them (us). The Vatican II generation no longer talks about a great springtime of evangelization. It is too late. That old crowd have missed the spring, the summer, and the fall. They are now reached the winter of their years and it will be a grace to them if the reality of the Church's folly becomes clear to them before they pass on. The Church cannot generate an unrealized optimism for Vatican II that will reproduce itself century after century. But Tradition, the Apostolic Catholic faith of the Fathers and all the Saints still has all the riches to kindle fires of the heart and mind that can and will be a new beginning, if the Lord tarries His coming. I do not know how long we have. But whether we are here just before a glorious termination and triumph of the Church's sojourn, or the beginnings of a renewal by a remnant of the faith, it is a happy and glorious lot if we have the grace to hold the Catholic faith in our hearts today and forever.

God bless. Happy Feast of the Ascension, Damien. God be with you and give you light and peace.

3DOP 

Happy Feast of the Ascension, Rory. I'll write more later. Gotta go to work.

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