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Ephraim temple announcement revelation or caving to public pressure


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35 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So Pres Nelson responded to silent prayers and not the boisterous rally’s, matches and plea’s.  So Pres Nelson is now privy to prayers?  I thought that was Gods thing 

God responded to the silent prayers, boisterous rally's, marches, and plea's.  He then revealed to President Nelson that He had changed His mind about the matter.

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D&C 56:4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good;

 

5 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Makes God look fickle and uncertain...like he did on the children of lgbtq reversal, which I personally had nothing to do with God

Similar to how God looked fickle and uncertain with:

* Martin Harris's plea to take the transcribed pages to his wife

* First restricting the gospel to just the Jews and then opening it to the Gentiles

* Creating a world and then attempting to wipe it out completely with a flood

* Telling the people of Israel that they can go to the promised land and then preventing them for 40 years

* Telling Abraham to sacrifice his son and then not to sacrifice his son

* Telling all men to circumcise and then to not circumcise

* etc

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21 hours ago, Islander said:

,Non-sense. God does not make mistakes not does He backpedals on His purpose because of human behavior. These are political, administrative and business decisions made by bureaucrats at the Church Headquarters. Which later are rubber-stamped by the leadership. This is the second time in very recent history where people rejected plans associated with temple development. 

 

I'm assuming you are referencing the temple in Tooele.  Was that decision ever called a revelation?  I don't remember hearing that.  If it wasn't called a revelation, then it would be a point in favor that this change in Manti/Ephraim was a revelation since it is different from the first time.

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2 minutes ago, webbles said:

I'm assuming you are referencing the temple in Tooele.  Was that decision ever called a revelation?  I don't remember hearing that.  If it wasn't called a revelation, then it would be a point in favor that this change in Manti/Ephraim was a revelation since it is different from the first time.

I looked through some articles about the Tooele temple change.  And they actually acknowledged the protests from the people living in the area:

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/1/21/22242578/lds-mormon-church-jesus-christ-tooele-temple-utah-recount-battle

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“We acknowledge the efforts of those who have raised questions and sincere concerns about the Tooele Valley temple project, including the residential development surrounding the temple. There is a sincere desire on the part of the church to avoid discord in the community,” the First Presidency said in a statement. “Therefore, regardless of the outcome of a pending signature-gathering effort, we have determined to withdraw our rezoning request for the residential portion of the temple project.”

So, in this situation, the First Presidency does acknowledge that it was the concerns of the people that prompted the change.  That would seem to indicate that the Manti/Ephraim decision was not influenced by the concerns of the people.

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8 minutes ago, pogi said:

If there is one thing we learn about the God of Abraham is that he wants us to petition Him.

To the point of commanding us to do so!

I've also found that He's always up for a good wrestle, too.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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3 hours ago, california boy said:

am sad those murals were painted over

They weren’t painted over.  They documented and removed since there was no longer a reason to keep the lath and plaster, saving a certain amount during the removal.  I am thinking they put in the heavy effort for particularly significant portions of the murals or saved the parts that didn’t fall apart when removing or both.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03/12/lds-church-removes/

Just being accurate...not intending as a debate or anything.

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am thinking they put in the heavy effort for particularly significant portions of the murals or saved the parts that didn’t fall apart when removing or both.

I could be wrong -- and we'll probably never be told -- but I strongly suspect that, as work on the foundation progressed, either it became clear that the noted deterioration was completely beyond remedy or quite possibly walls just cracked and fell down.

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50 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I could be wrong -- and we'll probably never be told -- but I strongly suspect that, as work on the foundation progressed, either it became clear that the noted deterioration was completely beyond remedy or quite possibly walls just cracked and fell down.

I was thinking the same thing myself. 

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4 hours ago, california boy said:

...........  Basically you are saying that the Church leaders get inspiration/revelation just like any other church leaders.  I agree.  I don't think there is anything unique in the Church's relationship with God and His guidance.  I wish I had figured that out earlier in my life when I thought Church leaders opinions carried more weight and followed their direction when really I should have been more questioning and relying on my own inspiration..................

That's not what I said.  There is a degree of commonality, but the dependence upon the Holy Spirit is more like that of the Holiness Churches (Pentecostals) within the LDS tradition.  Protestant evangelicals are deeply fearful of dependence upon the Spirit because of what they have seen it do to the Holiness churches.  And they are openly critical of the LDS faith in such dependence.  Their primary source of authority is the text of Scripture (sola scriptura) -- without the possibility of new Scripture.

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8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I could be wrong -- and we'll probably never be told -- but I strongly suspect that, as work on the foundation progressed, either it became clear that the noted deterioration was completely beyond remedy or quite possibly walls just cracked and fell down.

 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I was thinking the same thing myself. 

Why would we never be told that? That seems like something they would say out of the gates as **the** reason for not keeping or preserving them. Especially with such strong feelings about them. 

I don't get why this would be something the Brethren would "hold tight to their vest," if true. 

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16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh for pete's sake.  None of this was "revelation".

This was all administrative.  I don't doubt there was prayer.  I am sure they felt good about the decisions they came to.
But none of this was God parting the veil and clearly revealing his will.

God is guiding his Church.  God is giving revelation when needed.  This is not one of those situations.
And I still wish the people of Salt Lake had raised as much a stink over their temple as the people of Manti did.
Perhaps another "revelation" would have been received.

This is a good example of ongoing revelation!

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10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I could be wrong -- and we'll probably never be told -- but I strongly suspect that, as work on the foundation progressed, either it became clear that the noted deterioration was completely beyond remedy or quite possibly walls just cracked and fell down.

I think we were told why the murals were removed - https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/salt-lake-manti-temples-update-march-2021

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As we make these significant changes for the future, many historic elements are being impacted. For example, the addition of new instruction rooms, a new method of presentation, seismic strengthening, and changes to meet accessibility requirements meant that the murals in the temple would need to be moved and/or repainted. It was impossible to know whether the murals could be preserved during such a move. They were originally painted directly on lath and plaster walls, which had been repaired and repainted many times because of water damage and other deterioration. Further, the change to a film presentation meant that the rooms would be reconfigured. For all these reasons, the murals were carefully photographed and documented before removal, and some of the original portions are being preserved in the Church’s archives. Many other historic features of the building have also been photographed, documented, replicated and in some cases, architecturally salvaged.

 

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's not what I said.  There is a degree of commonality, but the dependence upon the Holy Spirit is more like that of the Holiness Churches (Pentecostals) within the LDS tradition.  Protestant evangelicals are deeply fearful of dependence upon the Spirit because of what they have seen it do to the Holiness churches.  And they are openly critical of the LDS faith in such dependence.  Their primary source of authority is the text of Scripture (sola scriptura) -- without the possibility of new Scripture.

Thanks for the clarification.  I can see that for doctrinal issues.  But what about decisions like where to build a church or how to treat gays in their congregations?  I would assume they would pray about it and then do what they feel what God has impressed upon them.

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11 hours ago, Calm said:

They weren’t painted over.  They documented and removed since there was no longer a reason to keep the lath and plaster, saving a certain amount during the removal.  I am thinking they put in the heavy effort for particularly significant portions of the murals or saved the parts that didn’t fall apart when removing or both.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03/12/lds-church-removes/

Just being accurate...not intending as a debate or anything.

Thanks for the clarification.  I read the article you linked to .  Looks like mostly they just photographed them and saves part of them.

Quote

So the murals, which graphically express the story of creation and human existence, the First Presidency said, were “carefully photographed and documented before removal, and some of the original portions are being preserved in the church’s archives.”

 At least that is something.  I personally wish they could have been preserved in place for future generations intact.  For me part of the awe was seeing them in context with the rest of the pioneer era craftmanship.  I understand the goal of being more efficient, but it came at a huge cost IMO.  

 

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23 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I guess you missed my main point, and you put the cart before the horse.  There is no "initial revelation," because it is always preceded by human inquiry, and the humans always seek to modify the divine response.  And, indeed, God is anthropomorphic -- which is a biblical fact often denied by normative Judeo-Christian tradition.  Revelation or inspiration is always a two-way process, and is always part of a learning experience.  God is raising children, a slow and painful process even in the best of cases.  He is not telling us what to do, so much as he is trying to give us experience on the road to independence and godhood.  Like all parents, he is teaching us -- despite our flaws.

Naw I didn't miss anything...but you certainly missed the initial announcement wherein the first presidency claimed revelation for the renovations of the Manti and SLC Temples...and now again revelation for its reversal or modification from the initial announcement. Seems God changed his mind once again.

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“As this project has progressed, we have felt the Lord’s hand guiding us in modifying several aspects of the renovation,” the First Presidency statement said. “The Salt Lake Temple is at the heart of Church headquarters. As the Prophet Isaiah foretold, many will come to this house of the Lord from all nations (see Isaiah 2:2–3). Many changes are being made to ensure a familiar, uplifting experience for members who attend that temple. In addition to the seismic protection, which is the principal reason for the temple renovation, many other improvements and changes to the temple and its surroundings are being made.”

“The historic pioneer-era temples have been a blessing to the Latter-day Saints for more than 140 years, and we know that with the updates and renovations now announced or underway they will continue to serve their sacred purpose for generations to come,” the First Presidency stated. - April 2019

 

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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17 hours ago, smac97 said:

From the article:

A few thoughts:

1. I note that the Trib is paraphrasing Elder Rasband.  I tend to be a bit leery about such things, particularly given that technology has advanced a lot, such that verbatim quotes are usually available.

2. The Trib does not say who conducted the interview with Rasband, nor does it provide a link.  Given that the grousing in this thread seems to be about Elder Rasband's remarks, that omission becomes salient.

3. The Deseret News states:

And this verbatim excerpt from Pres. Nelson:

4. Here's the coverage from The Church News:

5. I have participated in court proceedings where the judge is dealing with obnoxious or untoward behavior from a litigant or an attorney.  There are times when such a person gets his way, not because the judge has been bullied or intimidated, but because the law or procedural rules or equitable or logistical considerations require it.  When that happens, it is fairly common for the judge to acknowledge that the obnoxious person is getting his way, though not because of the obnoxious behavior.

6. I am impressed at the skill with which faultfinders can ply their trade.  The Church makes an announcement that affects the murals in the Manti Temple, and it gets criticized.  The Church later makes an announcement reversing its decision on the plans that would have affected the murals, and it still gets criticized.

There is no satisfying these folks.  Ever.  Ever.  They will always complain and find fault, then move the goalposts and complain and faultfind some more.  Ad infinitum.

Thanks,

-Smac

The old "blame it on the Trib" argument. Nice

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12 hours ago, pogi said:

Or...it makes Him look compassionate and willing to hear and consider the petitions of His children.  If there is one thing we learn about the God of Abraham is that he wants us to petition Him.  It is clear that he doesn't only want to hear our needs, but our wants also - 1 Timothy 2:1, Mark 13:33, Luke 18:1, Ephesians 6:18 and Romans 12:12.   If we proclaim faith in the God of Abraham, than we have to accept that he is mindful of our wants.   It may seem a strange thing to consider that a perfect and all knowing God, who knows what is best for us would consider the mortal and even "fickle" interests and desires of man as they relate to their subjective affinities, but I am sure there are profound lessons on love and parenting in there for all of us.  

Or the First Presidency heard the cries of protests and plea's from the people of Manti and reconsidered their decision.  My complaint is the need to claim a revelation for something that is an obvious administrative decision.  Why does it even need to be any thing more than that?

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3 hours ago, rongo said:

 

Why would we never be told that? That seems like something they would say out of the gates as **the** reason for not keeping or preserving them. Especially with such strong feelings about them. 

I don't get why this would be something the Brethren would "hold tight to their vest," if true. 

My guess is because it doesn’t really change much as it then becomes an issue of money and time as restoration could still occur, but take forever and cost tons given specialists are likely highly paid given the skill level required.  The Church has the money, so it becomes a debate of whether or not it is worth it.  They may see not sharing the info like ripping off the bandaid.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

The old "blame it on the Trib" argument. Nice

"I tend to be a bit leery about {paraphrases of General Authorities by media outlets}" is a pretty mild statement.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

understand the goal of being more efficient, but it came at a huge cost IMO.  

Not just efficiency, but accessibility.  I have never been so don’t know how much it would impact, but guessing wider doors, ramps, or elevators could have destroyed much of the continuity of the murals even if they had remained in place.  Though cutting up the rooms into smaller units (if I understand the intent correctly) sounds like it would do the most damage).

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Quote

you certainly missed the initial announcement wherein the first presidency claimed revelation for the renovations of the Manti and SLC Temples...and now again revelation for its reversal or modification from the initial announcement. 

As far as SL goes, the revelation could have been general, confirmation it was the time to renovate and some basic goals to achieve through the renovations  while the further revelations (as described in the quote about the Lord’s hand) covered what they should do in regards to problems that had arisen with renovating they were not aware of before. 
 

A revelation in my experience that something is appropriate does not preclude further revelation when the situation is better understood.  

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Thanks for the clarification.  I can see that for doctrinal issues.  But what about decisions like where to build a church or how to treat gays in their congregations?  I would assume they would pray about it and then do what they feel what God has impressed upon them.

I assumed that as well and it may be true for many, but some I have encountered believe it is an insult or mistrust of God to ask questions when they believe they already have the answers in other ways...and that depends on how they interpret their situation.  For example, they don’t need to pray about how to treat spouses or gays in specific situations because they believe they already have been given for general. 

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