Law day

[Kenngo1969]

Of course, we're all familiar with the Twelfth Article of Faith:

Quote

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, and in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

In the United States, May 1 is Law Day.

If you don't feel like reading the whole address (as it is somewhat lengthy) I'm working on some notes from Elder Oaks' address, "The Divinely-Inspired Constitution."  The full address can be found here:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/02/the-divinely-inspired-constitution?lang=eng

Here is an Op-Ed I wrote about Law Day for my local newspaper a few years ago: https://www.keepandshare.com/doc18/24238/law-day-op-ed-pdf-224k

Here's another one I wrote about the United States Constitution a few years ago: https://www.keepandshare.com/doc18/24124/key-features-ensured-constitution-s-vitality-pdf-293k?da=y

I welcome your thoughts.  Please keep it civil and apolotical.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

Why do I not get Law Day off work?

[AtlanticMike]

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Why do I not get Law Day off work?

Because it's against the law to take that day off, I think it's a felony😁

[TheTanakas]

22 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Of course, we're all familiar with the Twelfth Article of Faith:

In the United States, May 1 is Law Day.

If you don't feel like reading the whole address (as it is somewhat lengthy) I'm working on some notes from Elder Oaks' address, "The Divinely-Inspired Constitution."  The full address can be found here:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1992/02/the-divinely-inspired-constitution?lang=eng

Here is an Op-Ed I wrote about Law Day for my local newspaper a few years ago: https://www.keepandshare.com/doc18/24238/law-day-op-ed-pdf-224k

Here's another one I wrote about the United States Constitution a few years ago: https://www.keepandshare.com/doc18/24124/key-features-ensured-constitution-s-vitality-pdf-293k?da=y

I welcome your thoughts.  Please keep it civil and apolotical.

 

What in the US Constitution made provisions for displaced Native American Indians?

[Kenngo1969]

59 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

What in the US Constitution made provisions for displaced Native American Indians?

Of course, no question, various groups have been mistreated at the hands of the United States government.  Provided you could relate the topic to something having to do with Latter-day Saints, that would make a fascinating topic for another thread.  Thanks.

[Kenngo1969]

I think what I'll do with this thread is post some notes I've taken over the years from various works I've read on the Constitution, throwing in some commentary from the Brethren here and there.  Feel free to ask any questions you may have, and if I can remember what I've written in my notes (C'mon, Ken!  All ya gotta do is look at 'em!  Touche!) or read in the books (If I can remember that )  I'll be happy to answer them.  Although my notes include occasional commentary from Yours Truly, I've done my best to let the authors speak for themselves.  If anybody has any preference for what I start with, let me know.

The Federalist Papers, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay*

Miracle at Philadelphia, Catherine Drinker Bowen

A Brilliant Solution: Inventing the American Constitution, Carol Berkin

Origins of American Constitutionalism, Donald S. Lutz

What the Antifederalists Were For: The Political Thought of the Opponents of the Constitution, Herbert J. Storing

Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution, Forrest McDonald\

Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787, Gordon S. Wood**

*One of the more interesting things about The Federalist Papers is that the government contained in the proposed Constitution bore little resemblance to the one proposed by Mr. Hamilton (lifetime appointment of the President ... If Mr. Washington could have been persuaded to accept one, that wouldn't have been so bad.  Anyone else?  Not so much, et cetera), yet, in The Federalist Papers, Mr. Hamilton was one of its best proponents.

**As a matter of religious faith, I don't necessarily agree with Professor Wood's overarching conclusion, but his command of the early sources is impeccable.

Where should I start?  I welcome your thoughts.

 

[The Nehor]

On 4/29/2021 at 4:22 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Because it's against the law to take that day off, I think it's a felony😁

I’m unemployed right now. Guess I have to turn myself in. I was arguing more for the principle of the thing.

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I’m unemployed right now. Guess I have to turn myself in. I was arguing more for the principle of the thing.

Well, do you want to learn how to roof? I'll give you a job, it's a lot of fun😁

[Kenngo1969]

21 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I’m unemployed right now. Guess I have to turn myself in. I was arguing more for the principle of the thing.

 

19 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well, do you want to learn how to roof? I'll give you a job, it's a lot of fun😁

You definitely have my sympathy over your employment status, The Nehor.  It seems that I am perpetually unemployed or misemployed.  That said, please take the conversation to IMs or exchange contact information to facilitate it elsewhere.  Thank you.

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well, do you want to learn how to roof? I'll give you a job, it's a lot of fun😁

I know how to roof so.....no.

[TheTanakas]

On 4/30/2021 at 3:49 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Of course, no question, various groups have been mistreated at the hands of the United States government.  Provided you could relate the topic to something having to do with Latter-day Saints, that would make a fascinating topic for another thread.  Thanks.

I forgot to mention the last time, but you definitely do have a gift for journalism  🙂

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well, do you want to learn how to roof? I'll give you a job, it's a lot of fun😁

Tons of fun. Of my 5 sons who have done roofing, 2 have managed to fall off a roof. 1 of them is still disabled from the fall. Only one is still roofing, but in his case he's a business  owner.

As far as Ken's topic is concerned, I once considered becoming a paralegal, but decided to consult with the Lord about it. He said NO. 

But I've always been interested. I used to visit the state law library (in the Washington state supreme court building) and enjoyed myself reading court decisions, as a hobby. I remember digging into a particular consumer protection case and found that a federal appeals court cited a British court decision as a persuasive argument! I've also found reading the histories of various laws to be interesting. When I discovered that common law was regarded the rule of decision in Washington courts (with certain conditions) I was quite amazed, having previously believed that CL was out.

Both the Federalist Papers and the Anti-federalist papers are wonderful to read.

Law is cool!

Except when judges go rogue.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Stargazer

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I forgot to mention the last time, but you definitely do have a gift for journalism  🙂

Thank you.  I would have liked to make a living at it, but, alas ...

[Tacenda]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Tons of fun. Of my 5 sons who have done roofing, 2 have managed to fall off a roof. 1 of them is still disabled from the fall. Only one is still roofing, but in his case he's a business  owner.

As far as Ken's topic is concerned, I once considered becoming a paralegal, but decided to consult with the Lord about it. He said NO. 

But I've always been interested. I used to visit the state law library (in the Washington state supreme court building) and enjoyed myself reading court decisions, as a hobby. I remember digging into a particular consumer protection case and found that a federal appeals court cited a British court decision as a persuasive argument! I've also found reading the histories of various laws to be interesting. When I discovered that common law was regarded the rule of decision in Washington courts (with certain conditions) I was quite amazed, having previously believed that CL was out.

Both the Federalist Papers and the Anti-federalist papers are wonderful to read.

Law is cool!

Except when judges go rogue.

Roofing sounds like a scary job, I'm sorry to hear of your son's accident.

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Roofing sounds like a scary job, I'm sorry to hear of your son's accident.

Yep, you wouldn't catch me up there like that. Especially now, as I am not as spry as I used to be! I've done roof repairs, but only on my flat rooftop, and through a roof hatch -- no ladder! And about 25 years ago, I tore open the roof in order to put in a wood stove stack. That was interesting...

Frank hasn't had it easy, that's for sure. And got Covid last year on top of it all.  But he keeps on truckin'.

[Kenngo1969]

Moderation by pleading is working soooo well!

Welcome to the I-need-a-job, Have-you-considered-roofing?, Yes-and-I-rejected-it, whatever anyone else wants to talk about besides the originator's announced/intended topic thread. ...  Onward and upward!  Anything else irrelevant anyone wants to volunteer?  How about this weather we've been having, huh?  I can't believe the price of gas these days!  Boy, am I sure glad that The Great Orange Menace no longer is in office!  Yes, a senile, doddering old quack is so much better!

 

[AtlanticMike]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Moderation by pleading is working soooo well!

Welcome to the I-need-a-job, Have-you-considered-roofing?, Yes-and-I-rejected-it, whatever anyone else wants to talk about besides the originator's announced/intended topic thread. ...  Onward and upward!  Anything else irrelevant anyone wants to volunteer?  How about this weather we've been having, huh?  I can't believe the price of gas these days!  Boy, am I sure glad that The Great Orange Menace no longer is in office!  Yes, a senile, doddering old quack is so much better!

 

You asked me to be quite, so I shut up in this thread, I'm being a good boy and honoring your wishes 😁😁😁😁. 

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Moderation by pleading is working soooo well!

Welcome to the I-need-a-job, Have-you-considered-roofing?, Yes-and-I-rejected-it, whatever anyone else wants to talk about besides the originator's announced/intended topic thread. ...  Onward and upward!  Anything else irrelevant anyone wants to volunteer?  How about this weather we've been having, huh?  I can't believe the price of gas these days!  Boy, am I sure glad that The Great Orange Menace no longer is in office!  Yes, a senile, doddering old quack is so much better!

 

Well, I did drag myself back to the topic (mostly), so can I be forgiven?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

When it comes to the US constitution, I consider myself something akin to a strict constructionist. 

And the conduct of the US government for the past several decades seems to me, at least, to have been contra-constitution. Not much can be done about that. It's been pretty much set in stone, via stare decisis.

I regard the US constitution to have been inspired by God, despite its flaws. I loved listening to President Oaks' talk on the constitution in the last general conference. And whereas God did not dictate the constitution, as He says: 

And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.  DC 101:80

Will the principles of the constitution be included in the governance of the world in the Millenium? The Lord seems to say that it will be:

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.  DC 98:6,7

In these two verses, the Lord is clearly saying that significant deviation from the principles of the constitution is an thing of evil. I feel that this can be taken as saying that the government of the Lord's kingdom during the Millenium will hue to the principles embodied in the US constitution.

[Kenngo1969]

A.		Federalist No. 1, “General Introduction”
	1.	What’s at Stake?
	a.	Union’s existence
	b.	Safety and welfare of its parts
	c.	Fate of one of the world’s most interesting empires
	d.	Failure to establish self-government will be considered “the general misfortune of mankind”
	2.	Are Humans Capable of Self-Government? – “It has been frequently remarked that it seems to have been reserved to the people of this country, by their conduct and example, to decide the important question, whether societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government from reflection and choice, or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force.”
	3.	Agendas? – Could those entrusted with power in state governments be counted on to set it aside for the good of the whole if that were necessary? Did certain men stand to gain from the confusion that likely would result if the Constitution were not ratified, and/or from establishing several small confederacies rather than a united nation?
	4.	Any Human Being May Fall Prey to Base Motives, and Such Weakness Need Not Be Attributed to Willfulness – Charitably, Hamilton then goes on to attribute the fact that men may be motivated by the forces discussed in (3), above, to simple human weakness rather than to willfulness. Even those who advocate for truth may have less-than-pure motives. Political heresies can no more be cured by “fire and sword” than can those of the religious variety.
	5.	Even the Judgment of Someone With Noble Motives Can Be Clouded – Often, jealousy and love go together, and the former can cloud the judgment of someone even when his motives are pure and when the object of his “affection” is a noble end such as liberty, breeding an “illiberal distrust” of one's rhetorical opponents.
	6.	Even a Seemingly-Benign Surface Motive Can Mask a “Dangerous Ambition” – “[A] dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government”
	7.	Liberty, Dignity, Happiness – Adoption of the Constitution is the “safest course for your liberty, your dignity, and your happiness”
	8.	Objectives of The Federalist
	a.	Show confederation’s insufficiencies
	b.	Show how Constitution will preserve republican government
	c.	Show how republican government vis-a-vis the Constitution will preserve liberty and property

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Even the Judgment of Someone With Noble Motives Can Be Clouded

Something no writer in The Federalist talks about is "unintended consequences". And yet, government must always contend with such consequences. When alcohol prohibition came in, did they anticipate that human desire for alcoholic beverages would fuel the rise of organized crime? Nope.

But I guess the constitution is not a guide to better government, just a prescription for a good one.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

On 4/29/2021 at 2:57 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

I welcome your thoughts.  Please keep it civil and apolotical.

 

On 5/3/2021 at 5:50 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

 Boy, am I sure glad that The Great Orange Menace no longer is in office!  Yes, a senile, doddering old quack is so much better!

Hmmmm......