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Scrupulosity


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3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, the church does not include its leaders. Good to know.

The church does include leaders.  The leaders do not necessarily represent the church however.

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5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

How people implement them (ie. the local community or church group) and past trauma can generate trauma responses from those vulnerable to triggers. The rules themselves in their current manifestations are extremely unlikely to do so. So unlikely that I can't say I've seen a case where "the rules," in and of themselves, created trauma in someone not already struggling with previous trauma. BTW, I see several of the changes the church has made by cutting the fat and discouraging local areas from micromanaging by adding extra rules as a means to try and address this concern. 

 

And simply stating they are "very-involved" does not make them "very-involved." I'm not even sure what your working definition or litmus for very-involved is. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

By very-involved I am talking about instructions and expectations that fundamentally impact life choices on the broad scale and also in the local scale, day-to-day choices. And by that I don't just mean how basic principles filter down and impact us if we choose to abide by them, I am referring to explicit interpretations of principles which we are expected to abide, specific big-life choice we're supposed to strive to make, specific daily life habits we're supposed to acquire.  A lot of micromanagement.

Mormonism is a high-demand religion. 

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If I'm convinced of anything based on this most recent exchange, it's that trying to convince a true believer to engage in an exercise of introspection on even the potential for harm in the way the church goes about its business is largely a futile effort.  We have multiple people reporting on their experiences here and they are dismissed as "predisposed to mental illness."  Hey, @Analytics, @jkwilliams, @Meadowchik - we have finally gotten to the "root" of the problem!  We really are just broken.  It was all us from the get go. All that therapy to unwind learned toxic patterns of thinking from our lives was just wasted time and money.  If we weren't already "predisposed to mental illness" none of this would have happened!  Glory, hallelujah, amen!

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5 minutes ago, pogi said:

The church does include leaders.  The leaders do not necessarily represent the church however.

Man...you are usually a pretty thoughtful poster, but between your apparent blind spot on mental illness and this...you're off your game, today.

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1 minute ago, ttribe said:

If I'm convinced of anything based on this most recent exchange, it's that trying to convince a true believer to engage in an exercise of introspection on even the potential for harm in the way the church goes about its business is largely a futile effort.  We have multiple people reporting on their experiences here and they are dismissed as "predisposed to mental illness."  Hey, @Analytics, @jkwilliams, @Meadowchik - we have finally gotten to the "root" of the problem!  We really are just broken.  It was all us from the get go. All that therapy to unwind learned toxic patterns of thinking from our lives was just wasted time and money.  If we weren't already "predisposed to mental illness" none of this would have happened!  Glory, hallelujah, amen!

As someone who is genuinely mentally ill please stop appropriating my culture. TIA

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5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, the church does not include its leaders. Good to know.

The Church to me means the doctrines and principles of the gospel. The leaders are representatives of Jesus and the Church, but I am always aware of the fact that they are not perfect and subject to saying or doing things I might not like or are not appropriate.  If I felt like the things that Area president said did not apply to me individually(even though he said it did),  I would not let it bother me so much. 

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11 minutes ago, pogi said:

The question was, were you pointing the finger at the church. 
I think the quote I provided reasonably demonstrated why I felt that you were.

Okay, well in that case I don't see how that is objectionable. I was well within the thread topic. Do you think that the ideas that this life is a test, that God is judging not only our actions but also our thoughts, and that we must be constantly wary of the influence of Satan and his minions who seek to tempt us and imprison us in chains of sin, are *not* scrupulous in nature? Why or why not?

 

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2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

If I'm convinced of anything based on this most recent exchange, it's that trying to convince a true believer to engage in an exercise of introspection on even the potential for harm in the way the church goes about its business is largely a futile effort.  We have multiple people reporting on their experiences here and they are dismissed as "predisposed to mental illness."  Hey, @Analytics, @jkwilliams, @Meadowchik - we have finally gotten to the "root" of the problem!  We really are just broken.  It was all us from the get go. All that therapy to unwind learned toxic patterns of thinking from our lives was just wasted time and money.  If we weren't already "predisposed to mental illness" none of this would have happened!  Glory, hallelujah, amen!

I have no idea if I'm predisposed to this kind of stuff, but my point all along has been that none of this happens in a vacuum. If I mention that the church has had any impact on this part of me, I'm told I'm pointing fingers or trying to absolve myself of blame. And when I talk about actually listening to and internalizing the instruction of my line priesthood leader, I'm told that's not really the church. Maybe it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the church's possible contributions to "scrupulosity." I don't know what I was thinking participating in this.

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7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As someone who is genuinely mentally ill please stop appropriating my culture. TIA

Don't play that game.  I wouldn't have said a damn thing if I hadn't experienced my own periods of serious and dangerous (to me) mental illness.

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22 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Man...you are usually a pretty thoughtful poster, but between your apparent blind spot on mental illness and this...you're off your game, today.

We all have our days, I guess.  Like I said, I tend to piss off people on both sides 😂

What is my blind spot with mental illness exactly - that people can be predisposed with comorbidities and triggered by institutional expectations?  What is “blind” about that?  Or, is it the fact that I said it is sometimes best to treat the individual instead of blame the triggering institution for mental illness? 

Regarding the second point, It is no different from any other organization.  Everything an employee does or says does not necessarily represent the position of the organization they work for.  I thought that was obvious.  

Edited by pogi
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6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The Church to me means the doctrines and principles of the gospel. The leaders are representatives of Jesus and the Church, but I am always aware of the fact that they are not perfect and subject to saying or doing things I might not like or are not appropriate.  If I felt like the things that Area president said did not apply to me individually(even though he said it did),  I would not let it bother me so much. 

My 19-year-old self was not as wise as you are.

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4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

If I'm convinced of anything based on this most recent exchange, it's that trying to convince a true believer to engage in an exercise of introspection on even the potential for harm in the way the church goes about its business is largely a futile effort.  We have multiple people reporting on their experiences here and they are dismissed as "predisposed to mental illness."  Hey, @Analytics, @jkwilliams, @Meadowchik - we have finally gotten to the "root" of the problem!  We really are just broken.  It was all us from the get go. All that therapy to unwind learned toxic patterns of thinking from our lives was just wasted time and money.  If we weren't already "predisposed to mental illness" none of this would have happened!  Glory, hallelujah, amen!

Unfortunately I have seen the rules of the church traumatize people directly. I have seen leaders do as they were expected to do to members who were doing what they were expected to do, with that resulting in long-lasting trauma. I think that the more explicit an ideology--the less room for interpretation--the more likely traumatic experiences. People are different with different personalities and circumstances which cannot function in just any highly specific framework. Trauma is inevitable.

 

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1 minute ago, pogi said:

We all have our days, I guess.  Like I said, I tend to piss off people on both sides 😂

What is my blind spot with mental illness exactly - that people cannot be predisposed with comorbidities and triggered by institutional expectations?  What is “blind” about that?  Or, is it the fact that I said it is sometimes best to treat the individual instead of blame the triggering institution for mental illness? 

Regarding the second point, It is no different from any other organization.  Everything an employee does or says does not necessarily represent the position of the organization they work for.  I thought that was obvious.  

You talk about a predisposition for mental illness like it's the only possible explanation for the reactions many of us have experienced to the very teachings and experiences we are discussing here.  I was not already mentally ill when these teachings were instilled in me in primary, on my mission, or in young adult life; nor was there any apparent predisposition for such.  These things ate away at me until I found myself in an abyss.  Maybe, just maybe, the way we were taught didn't trigger an inert predisposition.  Maybe, just maybe, the way we were taught significantly contributed to the development of a genuine mental health issue.

As to your organization quip - Do you really think a group of young missionaries didn't have a reasonable expectation of being taught inspired words from the Area President?  I don't know about you, but on my mission, that's EXACTLY what we would have expected.

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7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Okay, well in that case I don't see how that is objectionable. I was well within the thread topic. Do you think that the ideas that this life is a test, that God is judging not only our actions but also our thoughts, and that we must be constantly wary of the influence of Satan and his minions who seek to tempt us and imprison us in chains of sin, are *not* scrupulous in nature? Why or why not?

 

Ok, so you are now flip flopping your objection and are back to pointing the finger at the church again?
No, these teachings do not naturally cause scrupulosity any more than the rigors of education naturally cause anxiety disorders.  
I think it is self evident in that only a likely tiny fraction of members suffer from the disorder.

 

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Absolutely not. 

Absolutely yes. It was in your direct reply to the poster who said that it would require rules far more extreme than temple recommend questions, and preferably traumatizing, to show that an organization leads to mental disorders, referring to cult-like groups or ones into extreme punishment or ostracism as a means of behavioral control.

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Ummmm, you read that into his statement.  He said nothing of the sort.

See above. I think I know how this works.

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7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ok, so you are now flip flopping your objection and are back to pointing the finger at the church again?
No, these teachings do not naturally cause scrupulosity any more than the rigors of education naturally cause anxiety disorders.  
I think it is self evident in that only a likely tiny fraction of members suffer from the disorder.

 

Matthew 18:12

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Just now, CV75 said:

Absolutely yes. It was in your direct reply to the poster who said that it would require rules far more extreme than temple recommend questions, and preferably traumatizing, to show that an organization leads to mental disorders, referring to cult-like groups or ones into extreme punishment or ostracism as a means of behavioral control.

See above. I think I know how this works.

My response was that you could have such traumatic elements without being a cult. If that was not clear, I apologize. 

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30 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You talk about a predisposition for mental illness like it's the only possible explanation for the reactions many of us have experienced to the very teachings and experiences we are discussing here.

I have said nothing of the experiences that you and others have had.  We are talking about a specific pathological dysfunction here, and you guys continue to interject and confuse your non pathological experiences as if they are the same thing.  Is it possible the etiology is different for your experience from what you have not experienced - scrupulosity.

30 minutes ago, ttribe said:

As to your organization quip - Do you really think a group of young missionaries didn't have a reasonable expectation of being taught inspired words from the Area President?  I don't know about you, but on my mission, that's EXACTLY what we would have expected.

A missionaries expectations do not always constitute reality, unfortunately.   I think it is unreasonable to just assume any teaching is inspired - even the prophets.

Edited by pogi
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5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Matthew 18:12

Exactly!  That has been my point - focus our attention on the suffering individual.

Misunderstanding the etiology of the disorder will never help them fully heal. 

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30 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My 19-year-old self was not as wise as you are.

Yes I agree that how one reacts is going to vary from one personality to the next. 

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8 minutes ago, pogi said:

A missionaries expectations do not always constitute reality, unfortunately.  

Those expectations didn't simply spring into existence, did they?  Where do you think they might have come from?

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

We may disagree on the systemic and institutional manipulation, etc.  

No one is disagreeing that the church may be a trigger for some who are predisposed to mental illness. The question is, is it a trigger for scrupulosity in healthy individuals?

A corollary to that question is whether a healthy individual would take the Church’s claims and promises seriously in the first place.

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30 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I have no idea if I'm predisposed to this kind of stuff, but my point all along has been that none of this happens in a vacuum. If I mention that the church has had any impact on this part of me, I'm told I'm pointing fingers or trying to absolve myself of blame. And when I talk about actually listening to and internalizing the instruction of my line priesthood leader, I'm told that's not really the church. Maybe it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the church's possible contributions to "scrupulosity." I don't know what I was thinking participating in this.

I think it is possible to have a reasonable discussion of such a clinical matter when conducted in terms of how the religion's norms can be pathologized, not defending a biased view of how the religious norms are toxic, or debating such. That way nothing comes across as blaming the patient or the Church but looks at understanding the mental illness.

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2 minutes ago, Analytics said:

A corollary to that question is whether a healthy individual would take the Church’s claims and promises seriously in the first place.

I have to admit, that was pretty good

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17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My response was that you could have such traumatic elements without being a cult. If that was not clear, I apologize. 

...or ones into extreme punishment or ostracism as a means of behavioral control. That covers the organizations that are not cults.

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