Scrupulosity

[Duncan]

Just now, pogi said:

That is very different from sayin feelings of failure =trauma.  Else we would all be extremely traumatized.  Feeling of failure is a normal and healthy life experience.  It is the inability to cope with that emotion that can turn things sour.  You cant blame that on an expectation to attend church. 

people get rid of feelings of failure by going inactive, they avoid church altogether to avoid further trauma and feelings of failure

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

That sounds circular to me.

Might I suggest you take a look at the remarks from Judd's study, one of the three I excerpted above. It talks about the need for grace in the mediation of LDS beliefs about judgement and sin.

 

 Its not circular.  An “otherwise healthy” individual (as is the assertion) would not have such toxic feelings over the expectation to gonto church.  Period.  You are changing your assertion to include people who have mental illness.  That is changing the goal post.   “Otherwise healthy” individuals are not traumautized by your claim.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

people get rid of feelings of failure by going inactive, they avoid church altogether to avoid further trauma and feelings of failure

I think you are using a different definition of trauma than I am.  Again lets focus solely on the assertion I am contending against, and not add in other unrelated stories.

[pogi]

I am going to have to bow out.  Take care y’all.  

P.S. I appreciate the comments on the need for attention on grace.  I agree.

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think you are using a different definition of trauma than I am.  Again lets focus solely on the assertion I am contending against, and not add in other unrelated stories.

Did someone say trauma? Yeah baby; here I am. I don't PTSD support for funsies. Well, okay. Sometimes that but mostly I'm there because of the usual stuff.

So to the question, can one receive trauma through interaction at church? I think so. At least I'm speaking as someone who can check all the abuse boxes, who spent his teen years listening to my mom scream in pain / begging to die.

The most painful, awfully life-changing events I went ever thru - those happened at my ward. So, church + trauma is on the table.

[Mark White]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

Did someone say trauma? Yeah baby; here I am. I don't PTSD support for funsies. Well, okay. Sometimes that but mostly I'm there because of the usual stuff.

So to the question, can one receive trauma through interaction at church? I think so. At least I'm speaking as someone who can check all the abuse boxes, who spent his teen years listening to my mom scream in pain / begging to die.

The most painful, awfully life-changing events I went ever thru - those happened at my ward. So, church + trauma is on the table.

I avoid trauma by doing whatever I think I should do to avoid having trauma in my life.  

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am challenging one specific assertion.  Maybe I should just ask for a CFR then have you retract it and be done with it.  It is baseless.

CFR assumed.

When the event, or series of events, causes a lot of stress, it is called a traumatic event. Traumatic events are marked by a sense of horror, helplessness, serious injury, or the threat of serious injury or death.

https://www.cdc.gov › public › copi...

Coping with a Traumatic Event - CDC

I did not say such experiences will cause trauma, but that they can. 

Trauma can be different for different people. Prolonged stress and feelings of helplessness can result in trauma. Therefore, life-long expectations which are externally imposed (meaning the individual is less able to change them) can, when unattainable, cause prolonged stress and feelings of hopelessness. 

Reminders of such experiences of failure in the context of prolonged stress and feelings of helplessness can induce panic attacks and elevated anxiety levels. Classic signs of past trauma.

If a failure is considered a moral failing and is experienced over and over, it is that belief that can be the source of the trauma.

Do you think LDS beliefs cannot cause trauma in anyone?

 

 

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Chum said:

Did someone say trauma? Yeah baby; here I am. I don't PTSD support for funsies. Well, okay. Sometimes that but mostly I'm there because of the usual stuff.

So to the question, can one receive trauma through interaction at church? I think so. At least I'm speaking as someone who can check all the abuse boxes, who spent his teen years listening to my mom scream in pain / begging to die.

The most painful, awfully life-changing events I went ever thru - those happened at my ward. So, church + trauma is on the table.

I have to address this, in risk of being accused of dismissing your experience.   I am not denying that trauma can happen at church. I am really sorry to hear about your experience, but I dont think it applies to the assertion being claimed.   We are talking very specifically and narrowly about the expectation to attend church inducing trauma in otherwise healthy people (ie people who have not been traumatized by someone at church or elsewhwhere or who have no other mental illness). 

I fully acknowledge that the expectation to attend church may be traumatic in people who have previously experienced trauma or have mental illness in some other way, but the expectation for otherwise healthy individual who has not experienced trauma at church does not induce trauma.   It is a perfectly reasonable expectation placed on people.  

[Meadowchik]

37 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I'll write more later. I have a client in a couple of minutes (Ironically, focusing on complex trauma). But I had a personal example that reminded me of this discussion right after I pressed send.

I thought of my masters degree which was probably one of the most stressful periods of my adult life. It would definitely fit into the high intensity high demand scenarios. At it's peak it included 12-16 hour days working, study, and dealing with other people's emotional concerns. My migraines went through the roof (I'm very migraine susceptible and they get worse with stress). And I still jokingly say it was my black hole. Everything got warped. I had 2 experiences that were especially frustrating. One was around 3-6 months where I consistently got dinged for not being "vulnerable" enough for my professors on papers or projects. The formatting was extremely difficult to explain my complex family structure and there was often an expectation as to how I should feel about my own experiences that I didn't meet up to. Which when I realized, really annoyed me becuase I realized I was actually generally vulnerable (definitely a high value owned by most therapists). The other, happening right on top of that, was my thesis....which entailed shaping my very artsy creative oriented brain to one that's very exacting and a-type and "western." I was getting pretty dang nihilistic about the value of research near the end of my masters program. I was dying on the inside and the two overlapped in a way that I at some point showed it in a very emotionally charged semester end project. But I don't know if I think about it as trauma. Stress and burn out definitely. A solid lesson that I may not fit certain learning models, absolutely. But not trauma. 

 

Out of time. 

With luv,

BD

I can relate to that for sure. Pretty much like my life this past couple years.

Now suppose you have that sort of experience not just during a particularly difficult period but over and over and over. Suppose you're always failing at a thing which you believe you could attain if you were righteous. Suppose you feel completely helpless.

[Mark White]

5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I can relate to that for sure. Pretty much like my life this past couple years.

Now suppose you have that sort of experience not just during a particularly difficult period but over and over and over. Suppose you're always failing at a thing which you believe you could attain if you were righteous. Suppose you feel completely helpless.

Suppose you accept the idea that you actually are helpless in various ways but that you decide to not let that bother you by realizing you do no need to be in control of every facet of your life.  That all you have to do is as well as you can. Which is your best.

[Mark White]

Just now, Mark White said:

Suppose you accept the idea that you actually are helpless in various ways but that you decide to not let that bother you by realizing you do no need to be in control of every facet of your life.  That all you have to do is as well as you can. Which is your best.

And no I am not going to stress out about the fact that I can't edit that post to fix my typo. I did as well as I could then while trying to share my idea and I am simply not perfected enough to never make a spelling error.

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I fully acknowledge that the expectation to attend church may be traumatic in people who have previously experienced trauma or have mental illness in some other way, but the expectation for otherwise healthy individual who has not experienced trauma at church does not induce trauma.   It is a perfectly reasonable expectation placed on people.  

Oh dang. I think you misunderstood.  My distant, past experiences aren't in any way tied with my ward trauma. I was just recounting those past experiences to give reference of how awful the church stuff was.

That said, this might be of interest. Even tho my ward (eventually) changed me for the worst, it didn't really effect my testimony because it wasn't the Church that harmed me. Nor am I angry at members who harmed me because they weren't being malicious, just their imperfect selves. Well, most of them anyway; I can write off the one or two souls who seemed to had lost their way.

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, Mark White said:

Suppose you accept the idea that you actually are helpless in various ways but that you decide to not let that bother you by realizing you do no need to be in control of every facet of your life.  That all you have to do is as well as you can. Which is your best.

That's pretty much my attitude. But I am aware that others may not adapt that way.

[Mark White]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

That's pretty much my attitude. But I am aware that others may not adapt that way.

If some people aren't doing as well as they can then that must mean they are okay with not doing as well as they can, otherwise they would want to put in some effort to try to do better than they are doing.  Either way, I can avoid having stress about that.

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

CFR assumed.

When the event, or series of events, causes a lot of stress, it is called a traumatic event. Traumatic events are marked by a sense of horror, helplessness, serious injury, or the threat of serious injury or death.

https://www.cdc.gov › public › copi...

Coping with a Traumatic Event - CDC

I did not say such experiences will cause trauma, but that they can. 

Trauma can be different for different people. Prolonged stress and feelings of helplessness can result in trauma. Therefore, life-long expectations which are externally imposed (meaning the individual is less able to change them) can, when unattainable, cause prolonged stress and feelings of hopelessness. 

Reminders of such experiences of failure in the context of prolonged stress and feelings of helplessness can induce panic attacks and elevated anxiety levels. Classic signs of past trauma.

If a failure is considered a moral failing and is experienced over and over, it is that belief that can be the source of the trauma.

Do you think LDS beliefs cannot cause trauma in anyone?

 

 

Yes, someone suffering from scrupulosity can be traumatized by repeatedly failing to attend church due to the expectation.  But that is a not the original assertion.

.  

 

[Chum]

25 minutes ago, Mark White said:

I avoid trauma by doing whatever I think I should do to avoid having trauma in my life.  

Sometimes that's enough, when relevant things are under your control. We can't control others or pick everyone we have to live with.

[pogi]

I am too easily drawn in.  Kick me hard if I comment again.

[Chum]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am too easily drawn in.  Kick me hard if I comment again.

In my head, I'm rewriting this into an invitation.

[Mark White]

23 minutes ago, Chum said:

Sometimes that's enough, when relevant things are under your control. We can't control others or pick everyone we have to live with.

I accept as fact that I have very little control of most things that I encounter in my life.  I can choose how to respond if I want to respond but that is about it.  And yet I feel great peace and very little stress or trauma in my life. And I thank God for this.

[Chum]

53 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Suppose you're always failing at a thing which you believe you could attain if you were righteous. Suppose you feel completely helpless.

Personally, righteous never seemed to make much of a difference. That's a thing I really need the Lord to explain to me, btw. I am a slow learn and absolutely need positive reinforcement.

Anyhoo, after 2 or 3 decades I mostly set aside righteousness and focus on competence, by harvesting my bounteous failures.

Oh and thank God for failure. Failure is my pal. Everything I have I owe to it.

[Chum]

1 minute ago, Mark White said:

I accept as fact that I have very little control of most things that I encounter in my life.  I can choose how to respond if I want to respond but that is about it.  And yet I feel great peace and very little stress or trauma in my life. And I thank God for this.

Yeah there's a lesson I started to glean - after I ran out of options. Unfortunately, I was very good at finding options.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Suppose you feel completely helpless.

I have a theory that most bad behavior is tied to feelings of helplessness. So far it's held up.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

A child who is being mentally, physically, or sexually abused at church is not really what we are talking about .   We are not talking about fasting.  We are not talking about baptism, etc.  Stay focused people.  We are talking about “otherwise healthy” (I.e no sexual or emotional trauma from teachers) people being expected to go to church.

I was responding to what you said, maybe read the comment I responded to of yours.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Mark White said:

If some people aren't doing as well as they can then that must mean they are okay with not doing as well as they can, otherwise they would want to put in some effort to try to do better than they are doing.  Either way, I can avoid having stress about that.

Hey Ahab, how you been?

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That's fine. I'm not a medical professional, I am just a layperson who has experienced religious trauma and also continues to observe others who suffer from it and also cares for LDS people steeped in what appears to be scrupulosity. 

I don't know exactly what the relationship is between religious beliefs and scrupulosity. However, I do think that rigid religious expectations have a positive correlation, and as I said in my first reply to this topic, I think there is a relationship with the over-amplification of the importance of thoughts. One of the articles I posted above links that to scrupulosity. Another of those articles speaks about how some LDS do well as adaptive perfectionists while others suffer as maladaptive perfectionists. And the article by BYU Professor Judd does recognize the importance of grace in mediating other LDS beliefs about God's judgment and worthiness.

I apologize for not looking up articles previously, which would have perhaps helped generate a better discussion. 

No need to apologize. I’m barely keeping up with this thread as is. I don’t frequent the board as consistently as others and so I missed the research you posted and just barely read it. I found the research interesting though not super surprising...at least on  the maladaptive fear based perfectionism. I’m curious as to how they defined adaptive perfectionism and what it means to have a “faith-based approach” to it. It makes sense though it makes me wonder if I would fit into the category. I generally don’t see myself as a perfectionist, but I think that is because I interact and see that mostly from the maladaptive version due to my career. Well and my adaptive perfectionist oriented husband. I make plans and kinda wing it midway and the only thing I’ve really been perfectionistic about was dating relationships when I was younger especially. I religiously squirreled away stats and figures from research in my head as to what would guarantee me a healthy marriage. It was definitely trauma/fear-motivated. 
 

as I think I’ve at least hinted at I definitely think rigid religious beliefs definitely have a positive correlation to lower mental health and scrupulousity. My problem isn’t that but defining all of the church as a rigid religious entity. To me it’s taking only one expression of faith and religious behavior as “the church.” One that I happily don’t belong to though I’ve certainly seen it in others and in local communities  I’m adjacent to. When it’s in an individual I call it checklist Jesus. As in these are the things/milestones I’ve gotta reach and do in my life in order to be “good.” That branch of thought is there in the church but it’s not the whole tree. Note that the importance of grace isn’t introduced in the article as a novel concept for LDS folk. My problem I’ve had and seen elsewhere is that the more legalistic derivatives of the church are often focused on to such an extent that it becomes the primary thing seen on the tree and other derivatives are minimized, denied, or ignored. 
 

The last research you give is actually a great example of that for me. It can be read as mentioned. That to me is a great example of Checklist Jesus. But in context that sermon to me isn’t about making a massive checklist of thoughts and behaviors and eliciting humility with a group that assumed they were basically perfect. That hubris blinded them to their faults and left to both individual and social stagnation. It also allowed them to justify their behaviors that left them stuck in varying pains and social ills. It points them to the ultimate source of capacity.  Not our efforts but God’s guidance and love...grace. When that’s not balanced then there’s going to be a problem.
 

more in a little bit...

with luv,

BD