Scrupulosity

[Meadowchik]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

When I was an early teen, we had priesthood meeting in the morning, then a 30-minute break, then Sunday School, and then sacrament meeting in the afternoon. Young Men's was on Tuesday or Wednesday evening, and there was early morning seminary, and usually an activity on Saturday. My sisters were on the swim team at the high school, and I remember both of them being called on the carpet for not attending seminary. 

As an adult, when I had 6 kids at home, I remember being young men's president and then elders quorum president while commuting 90 minutes each way to work and trying to get my master's thesis done. I almost missed my thesis deadline because I was too busy and knew something had to give--it was my thesis. I finally told my bishop I was exhausted and couldn't keep this up. He released me, but I felt more than a little guilt for not being able to "magnify my calling." 

In our stake back in France, the stake boundaries stretch across 3 national borders. It is significant driving. One two-hour meeting can represent a whole day dedicated to travel for some members. Add to that the cost. We were just a 26 km drive to church (one way) and the trip cost about 5 euros in gas. For some members in our area, that expense added up can represent a true sacrifice.

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Totally disagree. Ever notice how happy people are when they don't have to go to church such as Gen Conf or a catastrophe and they need to go help the neighborhood? Maybe I live in a totally different world than you, but it's usually very apparent that we LDS like to have a church vacation. Maybe not so much now that members won't take attending church in person for granted any longer since Covid.

Not to dismiss your personal experience, but that is what the data suggests and again, we are talking about pathological trauma.  You and others seem to be talking about something else.

Edited April 30, 2021 by pogi

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

When I was an early teen, we had priesthood meeting in the morning, then a 30-minute break, then Sunday School, and then sacrament meeting in the afternoon. Young Men's was on Tuesday or Wednesday evening, and there was early morning seminary, and usually an activity on Saturday. My sisters were on the swim team at the high school, and I remember both of them being called on the carpet for not attending seminary. 

Your ward was always known for being slackers!

I once did a rough calculation of the amount of time I had spent on Church related activities by the time I was fifty. I came up with about 5 years of my time had been directly involved with Church.

 

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

All evidence suggest that regular church attendance promotes overall well-being as compared to those who dont attend. 

No, that's not quite right.

Quote

An emerging line of research has begun to document the relationship between structural sexism and health. This work shows that structural sexism—defined as systematic gender inequality in power and resources—within U.S. state-level institutions and within marriages can shape individuals’ physical health. In the present study, we use a novel dataset created by linking two nationally representative surveys (the General Social Survey and the National Congregations Study) to explore the health consequences of structural sexism within another setting: religious institutions. Although religious participation is generally associated with positive health outcomes, many religious institutions create and reinforce a high degree of structural sexism, which is harmful for health. Prior research has not reconciled these seemingly conflicting patterns. We find that among religious participants, women who attend sexist religious institutions report significantly worse self-rated health than do those who attend more inclusive congregations. Furthermore, only women who attend inclusive religious institutions exhibit a health advantage relative to non-participants. We observe marginal to no statistically significant effects among men. Our results suggest the health benefits of religious participation do not extend to groups that are systematically excluded from power and status within their religious institutions. An emerging line of research has begun to document the relationship between structural sexism and health. This work shows that structural sexism—defined as systematic gender inequality in power and resources—within U.S. state-level institutions and within marriages can shape individuals’ physical health. In the present study, we use a novel dataset created by linking two nationally representative surveys (the General Social Survey and the National Congregations Study) to explore the health consequences of structural sexism within another setting: religious institutions. Although religious participation is generally associated with positive health outcomes, many religious institutions create and reinforce a high degree of structural sexism, which is harmful for health. Prior research has not reconciled these seemingly conflicting patterns. 

When Religion Hurts: Structural Sexism and Health in Religious Congregations

Patricia Homan, Amy Burdette  https://journals-sagepub-com.ezproxy1.hw.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1177/0003122421996686#

I started a thread on it a week or so ago.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Your ward was always known for being slackers!

I once did a rough calculation of the amount of time I had spent on Church related activities by the time I was fifty. I came up with about 5 years of my time had been directly involved with Church.

 

Yep, Third Ward was where they put the reprobates and slackers. 

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My faith crisis should suffice, I went to a therapist once, she didn't help. 

People in faith crisis was not the question

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

In our stake back in France, the stake boundaries stretch across 3 national borders. It is significant driving. One two-hour meeting can represent a whole day dedicated to travel for some members. Add to that the cost. We were just a 26 km drive to church (one way) and the trip cost about 5 euros in gas. For some members in our area, that expense added up can represent a true sacrifice.

Buncha milquetoasts.

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Buncha milquetoasts.

I would love hear the experiences of those members.   Again, psychological trauma needs to be demonstrated with meeting expectations as the identified cause.  Good luck.  

Mental distress or fatigue is not the same thing

Edited April 30, 2021 by pogi

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

I would love hear the experiences of those members.   Again, pathological trauma needs to be demonstrated with meeting expectations as the identified cause.  Good luck.

Given that the OP went well beyond discussion of a disorder and pathological trauma, I don't think that needs be to demonstrated at all. 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Given that the OP went well beyond discussion of a disorder and pathological trauma, I don't think that needs be to demonstrated at all. 

We are beyond the OP now, and I am addressing meadowchiks assertion that the expectation to attend church meeting can induce “real trauma” in “otherwise healthy people”.  That has been the focus of my recent contention.

Edited April 30, 2021 by pogi

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

We are beyond the OP now, and I am addressing meadowchiks assertion that the expectation to attend church meeting can induce “real trauma” in “otherwise healthy people”.  That has been the focus of my recent contention.

anybody who grows up in the church and develops OCD then yes, absolutley. Pres. Oaks said it's a "common problem" and I also gave the Elder Cook example, too much church can produce negative results

Edited April 30, 2021 by Duncan

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

The Wasatch Front

Thanks

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Duncan said:

anybody who grows up in the church and develops OCD then yes, absolutley. 

Im sorry but you can’t just assume and identify the expectation to attend church meetings in childhood as an etiology of OCPD.    Kids don’t have high stress expectations with church meetings, and OCPD is thought to derive from childhood experiences and genetics. Certainly school, sports, and parental expectations are far more demanding than church on children.

Edited April 30, 2021 by pogi

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Totally disagree. Ever notice how happy people are when they don't have to go to church such as Gen Conf or a catastrophe and they need to go help the neighborhood? Maybe I live in a totally different world than you, but it's usually very apparent that we LDS like to have a church vacation. Maybe not so much now that members won't take attending church in person for granted any longer since Covid.

I like being in Church, but sometimes I just don't like having to wake up early, get ready for church(myself and kids) and then driving there.
If someone could just do all that for me and then beam me on to the chapel pew, that would be great. 😊

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Im sorry but you can’t just assume and identify the expectation to attend church meetings in childhood as an etiology of OCPD.    Kids don’t have high stress expectations with church meetings, and OCPD is thought to derive from childhood experiences and genetics.  

Beg to differ..I've heard stories of children that get baptized go through some trauma. Worrying about sin, etc. And then the fasting, and getting sick etc. So there can be problems with children. Also, a while back the church didn't have as many guidelines as far as what teachers can do and not having the rule to have two deep teaching. I remember a teacher that would grab the backs of youth's necks if they were getting out of hand in my ward years ago. So there is trauma with children experiencing a bad teacher or leader. 

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Beg to differ..I've heard stories of children that get baptized go through some trauma. Worrying about sin, etc. And then the fasting, and getting sick etc. So there can be problems with children. Also, a while back the church didn't have as many guidelines as far as what teachers can do and not having the rule to have two deep teaching. I remember a teacher that would grab the backs of youth's necks if they were getting out of hand in my ward years ago. So there is trauma with children experiencing a bad teacher or leader. 

A child who is being mentally, physically, or sexually abused at church is not really what we are talking about .   We are not talking about fasting.  We are not talking about baptism, etc.  Stay focused people.  We are talking about “otherwise healthy” (I.e no sexual or emotional trauma from teachers) people being expected to go to church.

[Duncan]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Im sorry but you can’t just assume and identify the expectation to attend church meetings in childhood as an etiology of OCPD.    Kids don’t have high stress expectations with church meetings, and OCPD is thought to derive from childhood experiences and genetics. Certainly school, sports, and parental expectations are far more demanding than church on children.

clearly we have lead different lives

[Meadowchik]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

We are beyond the OP now, and I am addressing meadowchiks assertion that the expectation to attend church meeting can induce “real trauma” in “otherwise healthy people”.  That has been the focus of my recent contention.

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I would love hear the experiences of those members.   Again, psychological trauma needs to be demonstrated with meeting expectations as the identified cause.  Good luck.  

Mental distress or fatigue is not the same thing

Is the likelihood of trauma increased with higher rates of mental distress and/ or fatigue?

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

A child who is being mentally, physically, or sexually abused at church is not really what we are talking about .   We are not talking about fasting.  We are not talking about baptism, etc.  Stay focused people.  We are talking about “otherwise healthy” (I.e no sexual or emotional trauma from teachers) people being expected to go to church.

Look at the potential correlations to trauma. Exhaustion and mental distress can inhibit the community's ability to prevent and respond to cases of abuse.

In our experience with ecclesiastical abuse, where our leaders tried to intervene in our civil case with other ward members, I am convinced that the bishop and SP were in part simply worn down and exhausted. 

[Meadowchik]

27 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I like being in Church, but sometimes I just don't like having to wake up early, get ready for church(myself and kids) and then driving there.
If someone could just do all that for me and then beam me on to the chapel pew, that would be great. 😊

Oh yes, bring on the beaming tech!

[Meadowchik]

Something else to consider. Some people who might be more obsessive compulsive can be well-fitted to the structure in the church. 

If they do well in the structure, and advance in responsibilities as a result, what is the impact of a leader who thrives in an obsessive-compulsive atmosphere?

[Vanguard]

4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Something else to consider. Some people who might be more obsessive compulsive can be well-fitted to the structure in the church. 

If they do well in the structure, and advance in responsibilities as a result, what is the impact of a leader who thrives in an obsessive-compulsive atmosphere?

I'm sorry, Meadowchik, this doesn't compute. I don't know what you mean by an 'obsessive-compulsive atmosphere'. I do not know of a person who has been diagnosed with OCD in the ways we have been suggesting who 'thrives' in this way. A solid diagnosis of OCD-Scrupulosity precludes the possibility of thriving. About 2 years ago I had been assigned the possibility of taking on a bishop down in CA who desperately needed help with his OCD. His report suggested absolutely nothing of being 'well-fitted' but rather he was falling apart and had been for some time. 

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I'm sorry, Meadowchik, this doesn't compute. I don't know what you mean by an 'obsessive-compulsive atmosphere'. I do not know of a person who has been diagnosed with OCD in the ways we have been suggesting who 'thrives' in this way. A solid diagnosis of OCD-Scrupulosity precludes the possibility of thriving. About 2 years ago I had been assigned the possibility of taking on a bishop down in CA who desperately needed help with his OCD. His report suggested absolutely nothing of being 'well-fitted' but rather he was falling apart and had been for some time. 

Perhaps I worded it badly. Surely, though, there are people with pathologies that are well-fitted to their environments, wouldn't you agree?

[Duncan]

18 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Something else to consider. Some people who might be more obsessive compulsive can be well-fitted to the structure in the church. 

If they do well in the structure, and advance in responsibilities as a result, what is the impact of a leader who thrives in an obsessive-compulsive atmosphere?

I lived in a ward with a Bishop like that, long story short, it wasn't pretty, not pretty at all and now it's into a third generation of not prettiness

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Perhaps I worded it badly. Surely, though, there are people with pathologies that are well-fitted to their environments, wouldn't you agree?

That's fine. But then it's not OCD. What you have is simply someone who thrives paying attention to detail at times even to the detriment of those under his stewardship. I think we all already knew there are those personality styles (at times I might be one of them!). At this point though, we may as well change the topic of discussion to - what to do when someone in authority is too exacting. Pretty ubiquitous profile...