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Mormon excommunication was not designed to happen this way, say scholars


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1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Society is changing fast and I don't see a situation where 1 woman being in a room with over a dozen men judging her "sin" as benefitting the church in the future. We live in a world where words, if used wrong, are considered violent. A court is a no win situation for the church. How bout this, relinquish some authority to the relief society presidency and let the sisters discipline Relief Society members and young women? I don't remember if it was this thread or another but a couple days ago I had talked about letting the relief of society play a more prominent role. 

They don't have the keys to do that, for one thing. Just doing it by fiat to move along with social currents, without it being truly revealed and commanded, would not be a good thing (understatement). 

Several women have told me over the years that confessing and working through repentance with other women would be disastrous. Whether those wanting women to have all leadership roles as men like it or not, there is a significant number of women in the Church (active, traditional) who feel the very opposite. Strongly so. 

 

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45 minutes ago, rongo said:

Several women have told me over the years that confessing and working through repentance with other women would be disastrous. Whether those wanting women to have all leadership roles as men like it or not, there is a significant number of women in the Church (active, traditional) who feel the very opposite. Strongly so. 

Having the option to choose male or female probably would be helpful.

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58 minutes ago, Calm said:

Having the option to choose male or female probably would be helpful.

Would that lead to de facto "women's" and "men's" churches, though? If you have functionally one bishop as a judge in Israel for the men, and the RS president functioning in that capacity for the women? It would be confusion. 

I think President Oaks effectively boxed all of that in with his "women serve with priesthood authority, but don't hold priesthood office" explanation. Even with our tendency lately to make big changes through "executive order" (policy change), something like that would require more than simply a handbook update saying that women can confess and go through the discipline process through the RS president. 

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3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Society is changing fast and I don't see a situation where 1 woman being in a room with over a dozen men judging her "sin" as benefitting the church in the future. We live in a world where words, if used wrong, are considered violent. A court is a no win situation for the church. How bout this, relinquish some authority to the relief society presidency and let the sisters discipline Relief Society members and young women? I don't remember if it was this thread or another but a couple days ago I had talked about letting the relief of society play a more prominent role. 

 In the end we will be judged by our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. I don't think we will get a chance to propose for a woman to judge all women and a man to judge all men. I don't think it will matter to us when we are there. 

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19 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Yeah, but nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Ahhh, but everyone expects the Mormon Inquisition. :)

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14 hours ago, Nacho2dope said:

 In the end we will be judged by our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. I don't think we will get a chance to propose for a woman to judge all women and a man to judge all men. I don't think it will matter to us when we are there. 

Assuming we really believe in a Heavenly Mother, you don't think that she will be a part of that judgement council as well? She is just a figurehead that has no real impact or interaction with creation and Her children?

I know it is a speculative tangent to the OP, but I find it problematic when we defend an all male judgement council based on the all male deity that we see in scripture. I think it illustrates some of the problems we have when we profess to believe in Heavenly Mother, but have no revelations to tell us her roles in creation, redemption, judgement, and even day to day operation of the Church or the world.

Edited by MrShorty
typo
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30 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

 In the end we will be judged by our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ. I don't think we will get a chance to propose for a woman to judge all women and a man to judge all men. I don't think it will matter to us when we are there. 

Every once in a while I'll have a dream that when I die and go to heaven, I'll find out that the reason we never talk about heavenly mother here on Earth, is because she put heavenly Father in charge of all the world's that have the bratty, emotional, Aholes of our heavenly family and heavenly mother is busy running the world's with the more mature, realistic, obedient children. 😂. Hey, you never know.

   Personally, I don't think we know 0.1 percent of what will happen after we die. 

 

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7 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Assuming we really believe in a Heavenly Mother, you don't think that she will be a part of that judgement council as well? She is just a figurehead that has no real impact or interaction with creation and Her children?

I know it is a speculative tangent to the OP, but I find it problematic when we defend an all male judgement council based on the all male deity that we see in scripture. I think it illustrates some of the problems we have when we profess to believe in Heavenly Mother, but have no revelations to tell us here roles in creation, redemption, judgement, and even day to day operation of the Church or the world.

Dang, as I was writing about heavenly mother you were doing the same thing, that's crazy.

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4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

What about the SP relying on guidance from the holy spirit only? I personally would never go into a disciplinary counsel, there would to great of a chance I would end up in the back of a squad car.

In my experience, the final decision was made by the stake presidency’s reliance on guidance from the Holy Ghost, not by pressure from the HC. There was never any animosity from the SP/HC expressed in the proceedings.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Having the option to choose male or female probably would be helpful.

The only reason why some members are entertaining such foolish notions is because they apparently fail to comprehend the infinite and eternal perfections of the Godhead. Superimposing the imperfections, frailties and immature earthly squabbles between the men and women of this fallen onto the interactions of the exalted men and women who rule and reign in the celestial kingdom is a fools errand. God the Father and Heavenly Mother are perfectly united and at one in all things, and there isn’t the slightest degree of compulsion or unrighteousness dominion that has anything to do with that perfect unity of mind, heart and soul.

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16 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Assuming we really believe in a Heavenly Mother, you don't think that she will be a part of that judgement council as well? She is just a figurehead that has no real impact or interaction with creation and Her children?

I know it is a speculative tangent to the OP, but I find it problematic when we defend an all male judgement council based on the all male deity that we see in scripture. I think it illustrates some of the problems we have when we profess to believe in Heavenly Mother, but have no revelations to tell us here roles in creation, redemption, judgement, and even day to day operation of the Church or the world.

But the revelations we do have make it clear that we will be judged by the Father with the Son as our advocate.

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21 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The only reason why some members are entertaining such foolish notions is because they apparently fail to comprehend the infinite and eternal perfections of the Godhead. Superimposing the imperfections, frailties and immature earthly squabbles between the men and women of this fallen onto the interactions of the exalted men and women who rule and reign in the celestial kingdom is a fools errand. God the Father and Heavenly Mother are perfectly united and at one in all things, and there isn’t the slightest degree of compulsion or unrighteousness dominion that has anything to do with that perfect unity of mind, heart and soul.

Mansplaining and divinesplaining in one post.

Brilliant!

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58 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

But the revelations we do have make it clear that we will be judged by the Father with the Son as our advocate.

Maybe. It probably depends on how we deal with the "absence of evidence" issue. As you say, the revelations are pretty clear about the role(s) that the Father and Son will play in our creation/redemption/judgement arc. The revelations are silent on Mother's role(s). Does that silence mean that she really has no role(s) to play in our creation/redemption/judgement? Or does that silence mean no more and no less than the revelations are silent?

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The only reason why some members are entertaining such foolish notions is because they apparently fail to comprehend the infinite and eternal perfections of the Godhead. Superimposing the imperfections, frailties and immature earthly squabbles between the men and women of this fallen onto the interactions of the exalted men and women who rule and reign in the celestial kingdom is a fools errand. God the Father and Heavenly Mother are perfectly united and at one in all things, and there isn’t the slightest degree of compulsion or unrighteousness dominion that has anything to do with that perfect unity of mind, heart and soul.

I'll bet it must irk you to no end that you haven't been called as the patriarch of the church.

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2 hours ago, rongo said:

I think President Oaks effectively boxed all of that in with his "women serve with priesthood authority, but don't hold priesthood office" explanation. Even with our tendency lately to make big changes through "executive order" (policy change), something like that would require more than simply a handbook update saying that women can confess and go through the discipline process through the RS president. 

I think having the RS Pres or one of her counselors included in the process and then she act as a support or ‘voice’ with the bishopric or stake presidency during any council if needed and then she is the one who is delegated to meet with the member during the process of repentance and restoration would be a possible adaptation.

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5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Every once in a while I'll have a dream that when I die and go to heaven, I'll find out that the reason we never talk about heavenly mother here on Earth, is because she put heavenly Father in charge of all the world's that have the bratty, emotional, Aholes of our heavenly family and heavenly mother is busy running the world's with the more mature, realistic, obedient children. 😂. Hey, you never know.

   Personally, I don't think we know 0.1 percent of what will happen after we die. 

 

I agree we don't know all of what happens  after we die. We base our decision off of what we know.

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I am surprised that people are still being excommunicated. I think that years ago excommunication was much more used. Now, I think that people are given much more leeway. Society has changed. And there is more temptation today. And if I were bishop I would never bring excommunication into the process. I would just have sympathy and let them off the hook. Why bother excommunicating someone.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

Last time I checked neither the Bishop nor the SP qualified as infinite or eternally perfect yet, so not seeing your point in regard to the very mortal process of counseling and reconciliation through God’s very fallible earthly representatives...no one was talking about the Final Judgment that I was aware of, but rather the baby steps part that church discipline is.

I’m having a most interesting experience at the moment. A short while ago I awoke from a nap and the first thing I did after waking is read the above post, and since then I’ve been sitting here trying to figure out what it was that I thought you said in the first place that prompted me to comment as I did. No matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to figure out what it was that I thought you said that caused me to say what I said. In retrospect, it seems my comment was actually in response to something someone else said or I somehow got an impression that you had said something you actually didn’t say. I’ll let you know if I ever figure it out.

Edited by teddyaware
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23 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I’m having a most interesting experience at the moment. A short while ago I awoke from a nap and the first thing I did after waking is read the above post, and since then I’ve been sitting here trying to figure out what it was that I thought you said in the first place that prompted me to comment as I did. No matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to figure out what it was that I thought you said that caused me to say what I said. In retrospect, it seems my comment was actually in response to something someone else said or I somehow got an impression that you had said something you actually didn’t say. I’ll let you know if I ever figure it out.

You are making me laugh.  I do that all the time.

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6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

God the Father and Heavenly Mother are perfectly united and at one in all things,

Probably not. I think they're smarter than that.

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