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Interesting article - Marriage proposal based on seerstone revelation


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https://www.ldsliving.com/How-did-Joseph-Smith-know-Emma-was-the-right-person-Richard-Turley-and-Jennifer-Reeder-discuss/s/94232

I kind of want to read Jennifer Reeder's new book after seeing this interview.  I'm surprised I hadn't heard this before.

  • So first of all, Moroni had told Joseph in their annual appointment on the [H]ill [Cumorah] that he needed to bring the right person with him. And the first time he met with Moroni, Joseph’s immediate thought was that right person was his older brother Alvin Smith. However, that year, just a few months later, Alvin became sick and died. And so, he . . . continued to meet with Moroni and in 1826, Moroni said, “You have one more chance. You need to bring the right person,” and Joseph didn’t know who that right person was. He had met Emma Hale in 1825 when he went down to the Harmony area to work, and he had boarded on their farm and was impressed with her intelligence and her sincere belief in his experience. So he looked in his seer stone, which was one way that he received revelation, and he saw Emma Hale and he knew that she was the right one—the right one not only to help him procure the plates but the right one to be a companion to him in his life. 

I've heard of revelation on who to marry (even Joseph had several such revelations) but I hadn't heard this one came through the seer stone.

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3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

But, think of the merchandising opportunity here.

The risk vs reward on their use is a bit high.

 

Quote

..no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. Mosiah 8:13

 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I asked God if I could have a seer stone. The answer was “no”.

Well there must be a reason...

“Joseph Smith, Jr. said, every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, “History of Brigham Young,” Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, v. 26, February 20, 1864

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Interesting.   

 

When I was at college my first day in my first class my religion teacher started out by saying, "all you freshman women, if a young man says he was inspired that you should marry him, run.  You're entitled to your own inspiration." 

Well maybe he didn't say those words exactly; however, that's how I remember it and I'm forever grateful for that.  I was fairly naive.  Pretty sure I'd be in a less fortunate situation today without that direction.  

I don't think I'd be a personal fan of either Joseph or Brigham if I were to have lunch with them - but I'm glad they did the work that provides me with the Gospel.  

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4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Palantirs can be dangerous: "They are not all accounted for, the lost Seeing Stones. We do not know who else may be watching!"

Now, THAT was funny!

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Well there must be a reason...

“Joseph Smith, Jr. said, every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, “History of Brigham Young,” Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, v. 26, February 20, 1864

Yep, same reason for most of my problems.

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Palantirs can be dangerous: "They are not all accounted for, the lost Seeing Stones. We do not know who else may be watching!"

Many brazenly use them anyways.

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And he is seducing others to their use too:

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2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

When I was at college my first day in my first class my religion teacher started out by saying, "all you freshman women, if a young man says he was inspired that you should marry him, run.  You're entitled to your own inspiration." 

A bishop in our building is pretty misogynistic. I don't throw that term around lightly, but he talks to the husbands about things he wants their wives to do instead of talking to the wives (we had good friends in that ward whose bishop I used to be years ago, and they've told us things). His wife is very soft-spoken, and she said (at a lunch for bishops' wives with the stake presidency's wives) that when he proposed to her, he asked her to marry him and then said he was going to walk away while she prayed about it. He would be back in a few minutes for her answer. 

That would not have worked with my wife --- it would have been over, then and there. ;) 

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10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I've heard of revelation on who to marry (even Joseph had several such revelations) but I hadn't heard this one came through the seer stone.

This story comes from Joseph Knight Sr: https://www.byustudies.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/17.1JesseeJoseph.pdf

Richard Bushman provided a brief but vivid description of Knight's account in an essay several years ago:

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Although a believer from the start, Knight's "Recollection" has bothered some Mormon readers because of its rough-cut style and its unembarrassed reports of familiar relations with neighborhood money diggers. Knight recorded a warning Joseph sent to Samuel Lawrence, a conjurer, to stay away from the Hill Cumorah on September 22 or Joseph would "thrash the stumps with him." Knight talked to Joseph soon after the return from the hill on the morning of September 22 and reported the impression that Joseph "seamed to think more of the glasses or the urim and thummem then he Did of the Plates, for, says he, 'I can see any thing; they are Marvelus.'" Knight also tells of pressure from the money-diggers to see the plates, resulting in Joseph's and Emma's retreat from Manchester in December 1827 to a quieter haven on Emma's father's place in Harmony. 

Knight's 'Recollection' is now more widely accepted in standard Mormon narrations of the recovery story. We are coming to appreciate the homely details and the skirmishes with the money diggers. Knight's account seems all the more authentic because it is so candid. His close observation helps us to understand how an increasing number of people were caught up in the drama of the gold plates. Joseph did not carry on his work alone.

— Richard L. Bushman, "The Recovery of the Book of Mormon," in Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins, ed. Noel B. Reynolds (Provo, UT: FARMS, 1997), 27–28.

 

Edited by Nevo
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1 hour ago, Nevo said:

This story comes from Joseph Knight Sr: https://www.byustudies.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/17.1JesseeJoseph.pdf

Richard Bushman provided a brief but vivid description of Knight's account in an essay several years ago:

 

I forgot about the BYU Studies article.  I remember reading that years ago.  And I wish I had seen your post sooner, because then I wouldn't have just spent the last 45 minutes squinting and trying to decipher Joseph Knight's handwriting from Joseph Knight reminiscences, p. 2 and 3.:)    This story is touched upon in Saints Volume 1, and the Joseph Knight document is footnoted in reference to the story of Alvin's death and him choosing Emma to accompany him (see Saints Volume 1, Chapter 3 and Chapter 4).  I read Saints Volume 1 last year and checked out the footnotes at that time, so that account was in my recent memory.

One difference I noticed from the OP, is that Joseph Knight says Joseph Smith "looked in his glass" when he learned that he should take Emma with him to retrieve the plates.  I don't find where it says anything about knowing he should marry Emma, however.

Edited by InCognitus
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12 hours ago, InCognitus said:

One difference I noticed from the OP, is that Joseph Knight says Joseph Smith "looked in his glass" when he learned that he should take Emma with him to retrieve the plates.  I don't find where it says anything about knowing he should marry Emma, however.

I was wondering about this too. It turns out others did make that connection. Richard Van Wagoner assembles a surprisingly large number of accounts in Natural Born Seer

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Lorenzo Saunders remembered: “Joseph said that he saw the angel again; The Angel told him he must go & get him a wife & then he could take his wife & go & get the plates.” New York neighbor Henry Harris told Doctor Philastus Hurlbut in about 1833, more than forty years before Saunders’s interview, that an angel told young Smith “he could not get the plates until he was married, and that when he saw the woman that was to be his wife, he should know her, and she would know him.”  

Manchester informant Sylvia Walker remembered in 1885: “It was freely talked among the neighbors that Jo Smith said he had a revelation to go to Pennsylvania and get him a wife.” Another neighbor [William R. Hine] recalled, again in 1885, that “Jo told Emma he had a revelation about the plates, but that he could not obtain them until he had married her.” Emma’s cousins also reported that Joseph stated, “in our hearing,” that Emma was the person who “must come with him” to obtain the golden plates, according to the requirement of “the ghost.” Among others familiar with this requirement was the McKune family in Harmony. “Until he obtained [a wife],” said Sally McKune, “there was no use in trying to get certain buried treasures at Palmyra.” 

Katharine Smith Salisbury, Joseph’s youngest sister, provided the best summary of this requirement. When Joseph asked, “What shall I do?” the angel said, according to Katharine:

“Come here the next year at this time and bring your oldest brother with you, and you can receive the records.” In November my brother took sick, and through the ministering of medicine by the doctors he passed away. Joseph went to the place and inquired of the angel what he should [do] now. The angel said: “you must bring some person with you.” And Joseph said: “Who shall I bring? My oldest brother is gone.” The angel said: “You will know her when you see her.” That fall he went down to Pennsylvania and became acquainted with his wife, Miss Hale, and he knew when he saw her that she was the one to go with him to get the records.

These half-dozen accounts make it clear Joseph believed that marrying Emma was a requirement for obtaining the golden plates. If he were not married by September 22, 1827, the angel warned, he “never would” recover the record. But Joseph also truly loved Emma. Marrying her was much more than an expedient. She was, Joseph would later say, the “choice of my heart.”

— Richard S. Van Wagoner, Natural Born Seer: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1805–1830 (Salt Lake City: Smith-Pettit Foundation, 2016), 261–262.

 

Edited by Nevo
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On 4/23/2021 at 5:41 PM, rongo said:

A bishop in our building is pretty misogynistic. I don't throw that term around lightly, but he talks to the husbands about things he wants their wives to do instead of talking to the wives (we had good friends in that ward whose bishop I used to be years ago, and they've told us things). His wife is very soft-spoken, and she said (at a lunch for bishops' wives with the stake presidency's wives) that when he proposed to her, he asked her to marry him and then said he was going to walk away while she prayed about it. He would be back in a few minutes for her answer. 

That would not have worked with my wife --- it would have been over, then and there. ;) 

I actually had my bishop on the phone and he asked for husband first..this was for a calling.  I felt quite small and insignificant. I think invisible is the word that says a lot.

I am with the wife on this one.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I actually had my bishop on the phone and he asked for husband first..this was for a calling.  I felt quite small and insignificant. I think invisible is the word that says a lot.

I am with the wife on this one.

I always asked the person if he/she and his/her spouse could meet with me. That is, if I wanted to call the wife to a calling, I would ask her is she and her husband could meet with me. If the husband, I would ask him if he and his wife could meet with me. I almost always (barring circumstances) met with the couple, no matter the calling, and I asked if the person not getting the calling if he/she had any questions or concerns. Sometimes there were concerns or things I needed to know about, and sometimes it altered or cancelled the calling. That's why we meet and talk about it before issuing and accepting it. 

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