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The relationship between adam and eve before the fall


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14 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

A version of Moses and the tribes of Israel among the Canaanites is replayed when the pioneers come to settle n the Great Basin.

 

The conflict between the pioneers and the natives was nowhere near the genocidal story in the Torah.

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On 4/30/2021 at 4:19 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

In the LDS view, the temptation was specifically permitted and the Fall was part of the Plan.  And while Eve, in innocence was deceived in part, we celebrate her discernment and her choice.

She saw what was necessary.  Notice that Eve is to give heed to her husband not unconditionally but to the extent that he is obedient to God.  And who decides whether that is so?

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I see that as our Father saying:  Eve, you messed up and caused both yourself and Adam to fall because Adam did what you did only to stay with you, so in the future I want you to do what he says so that you can stay with him.  Adam knows to do what I say.

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3 hours ago, Jamie said:

I see that as our Father saying:  Eve, you messed up and caused both yourself and Adam to fall because Adam did what you did only to stay with you, so in the future I want you to do what he says so that you can stay with him.  Adam knows to do what I say.

Oh boy......

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The fall was the plan.

Yes, the fall was the plan.  However, I believe, Adam and Eve's disobedience was not the plan.  God did not want them to disobey Him, but He allowed them to, and if they did, His plan would still work.  When He said, "I forbid it...", He meant it.  I believe the plan was for Adam and Eve to be be taught and after sufficient instruction and after they had sufficiently matured, God would have instructed they to partake of the fruit to bring about the fall.  In mortality, we have things that are forbidden for a time and then, at a certain point, these same forbidden things not only become acceptable, they become encouraged.  For example, turning on and using a stove, driving and sexual relations.

There are a few reasons that I believe this.  The first is that I have never been able to accept the belief that God would very strongly forbid something while at the same time, secretly, not really mean it and hope Adam and Eve would disobey, and then punish them for disobeying Him, when all along they actually did what He wanted them to do.  This just doesn't work in my simple mind, so I had to find a different explanation.  One day, in the temple, it came to me.  Something in the film stood out to me.  When God asks Lucifer what he was doing, he said he was doing that which had been done in other worlds, specifically, giving the fruit to Adam & Eve.  Immediately God curses Lucifer and Lucifer gets angry about it.  This doesn't make any sense, except in a certain context.  If what had been done in other worlds was a serpent giving the fruit to Adam and Eve, Lucifer would have understood that he would be cursed for it, as it had happened before, so why would he get angry if all the other Lucifer's, presumably, had been cursed, as well?  I thought on this and then I realized, in other worlds, it wasn't Lucifer giving the fruit to Adam and Eve, it must have been God.  Lucifer was just trying to jump the gun and spoil the plan, but God had already accounted for this possibility.  It was a perfect plan that would have worked, regardless of the choice Adam and Eve made.  I believe God would have preferred that they had been obedient and thereby had been fully prepared for the eventual day when He would have given them the fruit.

Edited by T-Shirt
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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2021 at 2:54 PM, Teancum said:

Several prophets have CLAIMED to see Adam and Eve. That though is not evidence. No way all humans come from two people who lived 6000 years ago let alone the Noah and the flood problem.

Testimony isn't evidence?  Every common law court in the world would disagree with that assertion.  What you choose to do with that evidence, as your own trier of fact, is up to you.  What I choose to do with that evidence, as my own trier of fact, is up to me.  What anyone else chooses to do with that evidence, as his or her own trier of fact, is up to him or her. 

One may or may not, in a given case, consider it to be reliable evidence.  But whether it is or is not reliable is a question that is completely separate from whether it is evidence.  You could choose to accord that evidence no weight.  Someone else might choose to accord it some weight.  Still someone else might choose to accord it great weight.  And still someone else may choose to accord it conclusive weight.  But to say that testimony isn't evidence is, at best, facile, and at worst, incorrect.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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Just now, Tacenda said:

Why have some said the whole GoE and Adam and Eve are allegory?

Because that's what they believe.  

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On 5/15/2021 at 5:18 PM, 2BizE said:

Yes, the church teaches all of the prophets of the OT and BoM were real people.  Without these stories involving Moses, religion wouldn’t be able to justify genocide and the murder of innocent children.

 

On 5/15/2021 at 8:09 PM, Teancum said:

Ummmm Ok. Interesting response....🙄

I wouldn't worry too much, Teancum.  I don't presume to speak for her, but 2BizE is on your side.

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On 5/18/2021 at 5:06 PM, T-Shirt said:

Yes, the fall was the plan.  However, I believe, Adam and Eve's disobedience was not the plan.  God did not want them to disobey Him, but He allowed them to, and if they did, His plan would still work.  When He said, "I forbid it...", He meant it.  I believe the plan was for Adam and Eve to be be taught and after sufficient instruction and after they had sufficiently matured, God would have instructed they to partake of the fruit to bring about the fall.  In mortality, we have things that are forbidden for a time and then, at a certain point, these same forbidden things not only become acceptable, they become encouraged.  For example, turning on and using a stove, driving and sexual relations.

There are a few reasons that I believe this.  The first is that I have never been able to accept the belief that God would very strongly forbid something while at the same time, secretly, not really mean it and hope Adam and Eve would disobey, and then punish them for disobeying Him, when all along they actually did what He wanted them to do.  This just doesn't work in my simple mind, so I had to find a different explanation.  One day, in the temple, it came to me.  Something in the film stood out to me.  When God asks Lucifer what he was doing, he said he was doing that which had been done in other worlds, specifically, giving the fruit to Adam & Eve.  Immediately God curses Lucifer and Lucifer gets angry about it.  This doesn't make any sense, except in a certain context.  If what had been done in other worlds was a serpent giving the fruit to Adam and Eve, Lucifer would have understood that he would be cursed for it, as it had happened before, so why would he get angry if all the other Lucifer's, presumably, had been cursed, as well?  I thought on this and then I realized, in other worlds, it wasn't Lucifer giving the fruit to Adam and Eve, it must have been God.  Lucifer was just trying to jump the gun and spoil the plan, but God had already accounted for this possibility.  It was a perfect plan that would have worked, regardless of the choice Adam and Eve made.  I believe God would have preferred that they had been obedient and thereby had been fully prepared for the eventual day when He would have given them the fruit.

Interesting idea

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On 5/18/2021 at 5:06 PM, T-Shirt said:

Yes, the fall was the plan.  However, I believe, Adam and Eve's disobedience was not the plan.  God did not want them to disobey Him, but He allowed them to, and if they did, His plan would still work.  When He said, "I forbid it...", He meant it.  I believe the plan was for Adam and Eve to be be taught and after sufficient instruction and after they had sufficiently matured, God would have instructed they to partake of the fruit to bring about the fall.  In mortality, we have things that are forbidden for a time and then, at a certain point, these same forbidden things not only become acceptable, they become encouraged.  For example, turning on and using a stove, driving and sexual relations.

There are a few reasons that I believe this.  The first is that I have never been able to accept the belief that God would very strongly forbid something while at the same time, secretly, not really mean it and hope Adam and Eve would disobey, and then punish them for disobeying Him, when all along they actually did what He wanted them to do.  This just doesn't work in my simple mind, so I had to find a different explanation.  One day, in the temple, it came to me.  Something in the film stood out to me.  When God asks Lucifer what he was doing, he said he was doing that which had been done in other worlds, specifically, giving the fruit to Adam & Eve.  Immediately God curses Lucifer and Lucifer gets angry about it.  This doesn't make any sense, except in a certain context.  If what had been done in other worlds was a serpent giving the fruit to Adam and Eve, Lucifer would have understood that he would be cursed for it, as it had happened before, so why would he get angry if all the other Lucifer's, presumably, had been cursed, as well?  I thought on this and then I realized, in other worlds, it wasn't Lucifer giving the fruit to Adam and Eve, it must have been God.  Lucifer was just trying to jump the gun and spoil the plan, but God had already accounted for this possibility.  It was a perfect plan that would have worked, regardless of the choice Adam and Eve made.  I believe God would have preferred that they had been obedient and thereby had been fully prepared for the eventual day when He would have given them the fruit.

 

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Interesting idea

Heya, TAO here.  It's been a while.

Something interesting I heard a while ago from an Institute teacher while I was in school - some rabbis believe the correct way to interpret the story is that God said 'Don't eat the fruit yet'.  I think this sort of fits with what you guys are thinking, not fully, but just thought I'd leave it here for the time being.

Hope you both are having a wonderful Sunday :).

 

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12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Interesting idea

I posted a bit about it here (edited further below): Posted March 23

The term "other worlds" may also refer to other estates our particular "generation" of Heavenly Father's children that we passed along the way to paradise and subsequent stages of this Earth's temporal existence, each progressive stage requiring the turning of its respective governing key, represented by partaking of a particular “fruit” that results in intelligences / spirits changing and advancing in some way.

In this scenario, Lucifer, prior to his rebellion, may well have had an authorized role in these earlier, pre-paradise stages of premortal advancement, next to Christ. He obviously lost that right (but not the memory of the pattern) in the War in Heaven, and instead of inviting Adam and Eve to partake by his good example, he beguiled them to partake. Evidently, he thought this would frustrate the Father’s plan because Adam and Eve knew a) that he (the serpent) was not authorized to offer the fruit in light of the Father’s command not to partake; b) it was not authorized yet, anyway; and c) the dilemma created with remaining alone or childless in the garden or dying outside the garden as parents. They had to draw this conclusion on their own because a) they did not remember prior worlds or the world immediately prior to their physical creation; b) they were not warned about Lucifer and his ways; c) the Lord had not commanded them not to seek wisdom, yet to do so is in their very nature. So perhaps Lucifer only had experience with his own “generation” and not with doing the same thing in many other, previous paradisiacal worlds.

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Good to see you!

Thanks!  Yeah... I lost access to the email the old account is currently assigned to (I think).  Or maybe the mods disabled login for super old accounts.  Not sure there :).

It's good to see you too!

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Just now, TAO_2 said:

Thanks!  Yeah... I lost access to the email the old account is currently assigned to (I think).  Or maybe the mods disabled login for super old accounts.  Not sure there :).

It's good to see you too!

Do we get to see the cat again?  https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/16930-tao/

Do you want me to ‘report’ your situation?  The mods may be able to change your old email listed on the older account to your new one....I am assuming you need to recover your password.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The term "other worlds" may also refer to other estates our particular "generation" of Heavenly Father's children that we passed along the way to paradise and subsequent stages of this Earth's temporal existence, each progressive stage requiring the turning of its respective governing key, represented by partaking of a particular “fruit” that results in intelligences / spirits changing and advancing in some way.

Yes this has always been something I believe about the scriptures, and this interpretation is scripturally justified imo in scriptures which clearly refer to this planet becoming a "new heaven and new earth" at the time of the earth's "celestialization".

If there can be new earths, there can be old ones as well!

Liked whole post!

Also that other project is getting closer, my life is getting calmer! ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do we get to see the cat again?  https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/16930-tao/

Do you want me to ‘report’ your situation?  The mods may be able to change your old email listed on the older account to your new one....I am assuming you need to recover your password.

Sure, that'd be fine.  It's either 1 of two issues (1) I may have swapped the accounts email to an email account I don't have access to or (2) the account was deactivated in some way.  I'd be glad to have the old account, but if the mods don't want to, that's fine too.  I'm probably not going to participate a whole ton but jump in just occasional :).

Yeah, I'll see if I can get the cat up... although I might switch up which cat.  I've gotta look around :D.

Thanks so much!

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14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes this has always been something I believe about the scriptures, and this interpretation is scripturally justified imo in scriptures which clearly refer to this planet becoming a "new heaven and new earth" at the time of the earth's "celestialization".

If there can be new earths, there can be old ones as well!

Liked whole post!

Also that other project is getting closer, my life is getting calmer! ;)

 

Yes, kind of like "new time, same place!" :)

Wonderful news on that other project!

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