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The relationship between adam and eve before the fall


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4 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

As I understand it, Adam and Eve had completed their mortal probation elsewhere, and came to our world to engender spirit children and flesh bodies for them and to prepare the Fall.

Probably not a correct understanding.

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51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Probably not a correct understanding.

You probably did not understand what I was writing. That is how it was taught by Brigham Young. That's not how it is taught today.

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19 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

You probably did not understand what I was writing. That is how it was taught by Brigham Young. That's not how it is taught today.

No, I know something of what President Young taught. I still think he was wrong.

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On 4/27/2021 at 2:41 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

Moyers: Why are women the ones held responsible for the downfall?

Campbell: "They represent life. Man doesn't enter into life except by the woman, so it is woman who brings us into this world of pairs of opposites and suffering."

How do you understand the part about the woman being deceived, but not Adam being
deceived?

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1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

What did you mean by the "woman to enter paradise"?

Just as it as not good for man to be alone, "neither was it good for woman to enter paradise without it having been prepared, through delegation, by that same power and authority, in other words, without someone that would cleave to her with added value."

Eden is the paradise I'm referring to. Eve entered it after Adam, who prepared it (e.g. naming the animals -- which can be taken to mean far more than nomenclature, indicative of a far more involved stewardship and process) and provided from his own body, the basic elements for the formation of her physical body. Adam prepared Eden for their marriage and habitation together under the direction of God, with delegated priesthood. Having this priesthood, he and Eve were sealed (he cleaved unto her), the "added value" being the covenant path through which their children would be born. The covenant path would involve Eve's role in bringing spirits from heaven to earth (one complement to the covenant path), and Adam's role would be bringing spirits back to heaven through the ordinances and teachings (the other complement to the covenant path). Whether one takes this to be literal, figurative, or both, the eternal principles are the same and can be applied and witnessed in our current lives.

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3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

How do you understand the part about the woman being deceived, but not Adam being
deceived?

In the LDS view, the temptation was specifically permitted and the Fall was part of the Plan.  And while Eve, in innocence was deceived in part, we celebrate her discernment and her choice.

She saw what was necessary.  Notice that Eve is to give heed to her husband not unconditionally but to the extent that he is obedient to God.  And who decides whether that is so?

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

39714718_10156691179104444_6422342143343329280_n-300x300.jpg

NOW we are talking SERIOUS humanism.

Love the sheer audacity of the idea that we are our own creators !

"Did God make man or did Man make God"?

Both!

So much for that argument!

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On 4/30/2021 at 7:19 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

In the LDS view, the temptation was specifically permitted and the Fall was part of the Plan.  And while Eve, in innocence was deceived in part, we celebrate her discernment and her choice.

She saw what was necessary.  Notice that Eve is to give heed to her husband not unconditionally but to the extent that he is obedient to God.  And who decides whether that is so?

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I'm aware of that.  Are there other characters in the Bible or Book of Mormon
who are celebrated for disobeying God after being deceived by Satan?

Pete

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On 4/30/2021 at 4:22 PM, CV75 said:

Eden is the paradise I'm referring to. Eve entered it after Adam, who prepared it (e.g. naming the animals -- which can be taken to mean far more than nomenclature, indicative of a far more involved stewardship and process) and provided from his own body, the basic elements for the formation of her physical body. Adam prepared Eden for their marriage and habitation together under the direction of God, with delegated priesthood

Do you believe Adam was created outside of the Garden and then placed in it while
Eve was created in the Garden itself?

Pete

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3 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

I'm aware of that.  Are there other characters in the Bible or Book of Mormon
who are celebrated for disobeying God after being deceived by Satan?

Pete

Nope, because Eden was unique. If you know good from evil you don't get an excuse.

I admit I like some of the gnostic versions of Eden where Eve basically outwits the serpent and gets it to say far more than it meant to reveal.

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3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Do you believe Adam was created outside of the Garden and then placed in it while
Eve was created in the Garden itself?

Pete

I believe the scriptural account of the creation of Adam and Eve, which isn't quite as you've portrayed it here. I believe the account can give rise to various valid working models, but the important thing is to make and honor God's covenants by receiving the ordinances administered by His priesthood.

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On 4/23/2021 at 8:30 PM, 2BizE said:

I agree with this.  Adam and Eve were not real people and are only symbolic.  

Having never seen you in real life, for all I know you aren't real and are only symbolic.

😄

 

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5 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Do you believe Adam was created outside of the Garden and then placed in it while
Eve was created in the Garden itself?

Pete

Myself, I wonder what difference it would make. Much of the story of Adam and Eve seems allegorical. The scriptures say they were real people, and that the place (Garden of Eden) was likewise real. But besides this, how much of the story is allegorical and how much is real? It probably doesn't matter.

Allegory: a literary device; a narrative in which a character, place, or event is used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences.

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On 4/23/2021 at 12:29 PM, Tacenda said:

Another place in the Bible that I believe is man-made and is the start of many women being abused. 

@JLHPROF 

Maybe you believe Joseph Smith also mistranslated the Pearl of Great Price?

"Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to 
thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
" (Moses 4:22).

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28 minutes ago, theplains said:

@JLHPROF 

Maybe you believe Joseph Smith also mistranslated the Pearl of Great Price?

"Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to 
thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
" (Moses 4:22).

I'm sorry theplains, I know that you believe the Bible to be true, I just mistrust so much these days. 

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1 hour ago, theplains said:

@JLHPROF 

Maybe you believe Joseph Smith also mistranslated the Pearl of Great Price?

"Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to 
thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
" (Moses 4:22).

No, I don't.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, theplains said:

@JLHPROF 

Maybe you believe Joseph Smith also mistranslated the Pearl of Great Price?

"Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to 
thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
" (Moses 4:22).

Since multiplying did not occur prior to the Fall, nor the prerequisites of sorrow and conception, and since the Lord introduced these into Adam and Eve's makeup through the Fall, it was all planned to work out that way from the start. 

The marriage relationship did not change. The dictum  in Genesis 3:16 only confirms that it shall continue despite the life-altering events of the Fall. The previous Chapter (see section 2-10 onward here:https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation?lang=eng ) is very instructive about the eternal nature of marriage ("thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee" means the same relationship that existed before will continue.

Adam presided on a covenant level after the Fall, in which the couple blessed the name God and served Him together (Moses 5:5-12; 6:51-68 -- where Adam is more proactive) but also before (e.g. 3:19-20). As it was not good for man to be alone and so the helpmeet was provided by a power and authority outside his own (Genesis 2:18), neither was it good for woman to enter paradise without it having been prepared, through delegation, by that same power and authority, in other words, without someone that would cleave to her with added value.

Eve entered Eden after Adam, who prepared it (e.g. naming the animals -- which can be taken to mean far more than nomenclature, indicative of a far more involved stewardship and process) and provided from his own body, the basic elements for the formation of her physical body. Adam prepared Eden for their marriage and habitation together under the direction of God, with delegated priesthood. Having this priesthood, he and Eve were sealed (he cleaved unto her), the "added value" being the covenant path through which their children would be born. The covenant path would involve Eve's role in bringing spirits from heaven to earth (one complement, the "helpmeet" in the most egalitarian sense of Adam's "cleaving", to the covenant path), and Adam's role would be bringing spirits back to heaven through the ordinances and teachings (the other complement to the covenant path). 

Edited by CV75
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I once heard a lecture where a professor, who was considered an expert in ancient scripture , said that the word from the ancient text that they translated "rule" as in rule over her, was translated as with in other incidences within the ancient text.  I don't know enough about this to say that it is true, but it would certainly make sense if it were.  

 

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4 minutes ago, jcake said:

I once heard a lecture where a professor, who was considered an expert in ancient scripture , said that the word from the ancient text that they translated "rule" as in rule over her, was translated as with in other incidences within the ancient text.  I don't know enough about this to say that it is true, but it would certainly make sense if it were.  

 

I'd like to hear more about this if you can find it -- e.g. "rule over" refers to ruling (presiding) over the family stewardship with Eve.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'd like to hear more about this if you can find it -- e.g. "rule over" refers to ruling (presiding) over the family stewardship with Eve.

The same word (mashal) is used to rule over the light and day, etc

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/mashal.html

Quote
  1. to rule, have dominion, reign 
    1. (Qal) to rule, have dominion 
    2. (Hiphil) 
      1. to cause to rule 
      2. to exercise dominion

It doesn’t come across as shared stewardship to me in this context. 

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Since multiplying did not occur prior to the Fall, nor the prerequisites of sorrow and conception, and since the Lord introduced these into Adam and Eve's makeup through the Fall, it was all planned to work out that way from the start. 

The marriage relationship did not change. The dictum  in Genesis 3:16 only confirms that it shall continue despite the life-altering events of the Fall. The previous Chapter (see section 2-10 onward here:https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation?lang=eng ) is very instructive about the eternal nature of marriage ("thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee" means the same relationship that existed before will continue.

Adam presided on a covenant level after the Fall, in which the couple blessed the name God and served Him together (Moses 5:5-12; 6:51-68 -- where Adam is more proactive) but also before (e.g. 3:19-20). As it was not good for man to be alone and so the helpmeet was provided by a power and authority outside his own (Genesis 2:18), neither was it good for woman to enter paradise without it having been prepared, through delegation, by that same power and authority, in other words, without someone that would cleave to her with added value.

Eve entered Eden after Adam, who prepared it (e.g. naming the animals -- which can be taken to mean far more than nomenclature, indicative of a far more involved stewardship and process) and provided from his own body, the basic elements for the formation of her physical body. Adam prepared Eden for their marriage and habitation together under the direction of God, with delegated priesthood. Having this priesthood, he and Eve were sealed (he cleaved unto her), the "added value" being the covenant path through which their children would be born. The covenant path would involve Eve's role in bringing spirits from heaven to earth (one complement, the "helpmeet" in the most egalitarian sense of Adam's "cleaving", to the covenant path), and Adam's role would be bringing spirits back to heaven through the ordinances and teachings (the other complement to the covenant path). 

So was Adam a polygamist or did he divorce Lillith first?

:vader:

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