A possible life outside mormonism

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 I only wish that the church wouldn't say it is the only church to get you to live with God, I don't believe this at all.

Technically you don't need to be LDS to live with God.  Jesus does go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.  It is a great kingdom of glory.  In many respects, only LDS would appreciate the Celestial Kingdom because its purpose really fulfills LDS views.  If one does not believe in exaltation, it is not a kingdom for them as it is a kingdom of Gods. If one does not really believe in eternal families, they don't really need the Celestial kingdom as that is a kingdom about eternal families.  For the most part, people will get in the eternities exactly what they want, desire, or expect.  Ask a Christian what they want in the next life, they probably will say to live in Jesus and in a great kingdom.  They will get their wish in the Terrestrial kingdom.   Even an atheist get a reward as they can at least obtain the Telestial inheritance.  For LDS, we aspire to something even greater and if faithful, we can get something even greater than what others outside our faith are hoping for. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by carbon dioxide

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I grew up in Arlington!

Cool! Which high school did you go to and/or which ward were you in (if LDS:)Maybe you knew my kids. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Peacefully

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is so sad that many Mormons confuse religion and politics.  A faith crisis based on such nonsense misses the whole point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

To be fair, Mormonism has a history of conflating politics with religion. It's not really a mystery why, it was a theocracy in its very recent past.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

For sure. But it is still how we make most decisions. Thing if the last big purchase or decision. It was motivated by emotion and justified by logic.

I think that ultimately people seek safety, however they perceive it. So they will make decisions about staying or leaving based on how they perceive the safety of the church compared to the possible alternatives. 

[Metis_LDS]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are not a normal person, and neither am I.  Indeed, most of the denizens of this blog are abnormal in some way.  Otherwise we would not be here.  Normal people have the good sense not to waste their time on MDDB or any other such board. 

Amen to that, count me in!

[AtlanticMike]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I understood him to want to have answers,

Exactly! The first 45 years of my life I felt like I had all the answrers, happy happy happy. Now, I'm just happy and I'm still in search for the other two happy happies😂, I've lost them somewhere. Before all this, the gospel was simple, it made sense, I went to church, did churchy stuff and helped people. Anything negative I heard about the church went in one ear and out the other, didn't matter. Now for some reason that I still don't understand, the negative information matters and me researching and trying to learn about it is taking up way more time than I should allow myself to put towards studying what I am starting to realize could be a 'bottomless pit". But I do realize that right now I'm the one MAKING this whole situation a "bottomless pit" for myself. 

    

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I see answers that open up more questions as more fun

This ⬆️ is where I'm trying to end up. But I'm still in the "what the hell???" Stage.

[AtlanticMike]

9 hours ago, 3DOP said:

good God

Is it weird that when I read this I automatically saw James Brown dancing on stage and singing GOOD GOD!!!! 😂

[poptart]

If I was in your shoes I'd also be asking how much you know of things outside the LDS church.   How much have they helped you?  How stable of a community do you have?  One of the problems you really see nowadays, in general Christian communities and fraternities are dysfunctional, they attract the worst and scare off the best.  Theres a reason why Jack Mormons are a thing, anymore most other churches really don't care unless you have something they want, just how it is.  Look at how 47% of the population claims belief in the Christian God.  Religion and human nature did a fine job of making enemies, many of them came from families where people turned their backs on them in their moment of need so big surprise they're now bitter adults who cheer when violence happens.   Did you ever experience that?  One thing I'll give Mormons, in general they seem to care about their own far more, even non members.

Edited April 19, 2021 by poptart

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Exactly! The first 45 years of my life I felt like I had all the answrers, happy happy happy. Now, I'm just happy and I'm still in search for the other two happy happies😂, I've lost them somewhere. Before all this, the gospel was simple, it made sense, I went to church, did churchy stuff and helped people. Anything negative I heard about the church went in one ear and out the other, didn't matter. Now for some reason that I still don't understand, the negative information matters and me researching and trying to learn about it is taking up way more time than I should allow myself to put towards studying what I am starting to realize could be a 'bottomless pit". But I do realize that right now I'm the one MAKING this whole situation a "bottomless pit" for myself. 

    

This ⬆️ is where I'm trying to end up. But I'm still in the "what the hell???" Stage.

Your own description of being “happy, happy, happy” at one time has got me wondering if you’re one of the people described below in verse 23, who let go of the iron rod and wandered off the path leading to the tree of life because of the mists of darkness, or if you’re one of those in verse 28 who lose their way after partaking of the fruit of the tree of life? Which verse do you think more accurately portrays your present situation verse 23 or verse 28? 

When was the last time you seriously studied and prayerfully pondered the word of God (you know, that iron rod thingy)? Either way, how does it feel knowing that you’re fulfilling prophecy?

21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (1 Nephi eight)

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Your own description of being “happy, happy, happy” at one time has got me wondering if you’re one of the people described below in verse 23, who let go of the iron rod and wandered off the path leading to the tree of life because of the mists of darkness, or if you’re one of those in verse 28 who lose their way after partaking of the fruit of the tree of life? Which verse do you think more accurately portrays your present situation verse 23 or verse 28? 

When was the last time you seriously studied and prayerfully pondered the word of God (you know, that iron rod thingy)? Either way, how does it feel knowing that you’re fulfilling prophecy?

21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (1 Nephi eight)

 

You sound a little bit like one of those people mocking and pointing the finger People who live in buildings high in the air shouldn’t throw stones. Throw too many and the building might collapse.

[poptart]

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You sound a little bit like one of those people mocking and pointing the finger People who live in buildings high in the air shouldn’t throw stones. Throw too many and the building might collapse.

Could always do what I do, sit back with popcorn and watch the fun.  Also when the looters show up point them in the other direction so you can run to safety.

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

If I was in your shoes I'd also be asking how much you know of things outside the LDS church

A lot. Nothing wrong with a life outside the lds church. 

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Christian communities and fraternities are dysfunctional

Not all, but I agree some are. If you've read any of my past post it's probably easy to tell I don't want to be under the "christian" banner as much as the Mormon or even saints banner. That's just me, I've had a love/hate relationship with Christians in my area. 

2 hours ago, poptart said:

One thing I'll give Mormons, in general they seem to care about their own far more, even non members.

100 percent agree. That's why I love the Mormon lifestyle, it's set up so charity and love for one another are very important and I personally believe that Mormonism gives you a very good blueprint to follow for a happy life. Is it perfect? Nope! But the Brethren are flexible and willing to consider current challenges and that's very important for an institution of this size.

Basically, I haven't found anyone or any religion so far that would increase my families joy. 

[Metis_LDS]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

The first 45 years of my life I felt like I had all the answrers

I can tell what I found maybe it will help.  When I say I want answers I really mean something that makes sense and I can accept.  I now realise there are no answers only facts. God longs to share facts with us but the human record of accepting facts is a poor one.  Joseph Smith said something striking, Christ had to overcome contradictions to fulfil his mission.  Perhaps we cannot expect better.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Exactly! The first 45 years of my life I felt like I had all the answrers, happy happy happy. Now, I'm just happy and I'm still in search for the other two happy happies😂, I've lost them somewhere. Before all this, the gospel was simple, it made sense, I went to church, did churchy stuff and helped people. Anything negative I heard about the church went in one ear and out the other, didn't matter. Now for some reason that I still don't understand, the negative information matters and me researching and trying to learn about it is taking up way more time than I should allow myself to put towards studying what I am starting to realize could be a 'bottomless pit". But I do realize that right now I'm the one MAKING this whole situation a "bottomless pit" for myself. 

    

This ⬆️ is where I'm trying to end up. But I'm still in the "what the hell???" Stage.

I was there, where you are, and I lost some valuable time with my youngest son. He still had a great childhood, and probably could care less that I hang out with him, he had plenty of neighbor kids to play with, but I feel like we lost a bonding. He and my other children saw me on the internet constantly. I worry that's what they'll say they remember about me most, how embarrassing that I let the church and it's history or the blogs or the forums and the several podcasts consume me like that. I have a sickness and I wish I could joke about it. I can't get off the proverbial fence. I wish I could jump down on either side and take hold of it. I know members on this board and even church leaders would like a member to make a choice and move on. I can't do it, as much as I'd like to. So what I started out to say is, that I hope you don't lose precious time with your kids/wife, by studying out the issues with the church, now I regret and almost feel angry that I allowed that to happen.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Cool! Which high school did you go to and/or which ward were you in (if LDS:)Maybe you knew my kids. 

Sent you a pm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Could always do what I do, sit back with popcorn and watch the fun.  Also when the looters show up point them in the other direction so you can run to safety.

When the looters show up offer them something. If they want to take more give up or fight depending on the odds.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

A lot. Nothing wrong with a life outside the lds church. 

Not all, but I agree some are. If you've read any of my past post it's probably easy to tell I don't want to be under the "christian" banner as much as the Mormon or even saints banner. That's just me, I've had a love/hate relationship with Christians in my area. 

100 percent agree. That's why I love the Mormon lifestyle, it's set up so charity and love for one another are very important and I personally believe that Mormonism gives you a very good blueprint to follow for a happy life. Is it perfect? Nope! But the Brethren are flexible and willing to consider current challenges and that's very important for an institution of this size.

Basically, I haven't found anyone or any religion so far that would increase my families joy. 

Fair enough.  I don't believe for a second the LDS is true nor any other Christian church for that matter, what I do think is your leadership wisely stood by and learned from watching the rest of Christiandom here tear each other apart and make themselves the laughing stock they are now.  Also, that's why I said in general, not all.  There are good Christian communities out there, thing is besides being spread out and in many cases semi rural/rural, from what i've seen the good ones tend to be either Orthodox or Traditional Catholic.   They tend to be very strict, insular and "tow the line" people, considering how this country is getting, can't say I blame them.  Here's one that's been talked about in some circles.

St. Marys Kansas and Christian Withdrawal - The Atlantic

As I said, these guys are very, very traditional as in you only read a bible that has priestly commentary.  Also, no steak on Friday, you attend mass on the regular etc.  I somehow doubt many in the states would be willing to do it or in many cases now with this job market can afford to do so especially if they have children.  Churches here in general seem to ignore Christs greatest commandment anymore.

Thing is, at one time it wasn't just you, Christiandom in general was that way.  No more unfortunately.  I've known the children of converts who would say the rules of the LDS religion were annoying but when they saw just how good they had it, they shut up.  Also, you have something most Christian churches no longer have in general, an organizational structure that works in urban and rural enviroments.  Christian churches here do tend to follow the money i.e white flight, they deny this of course.  You guys are a bit better about that.  In fact, LDS charities works with non Christian orgs, saw it in WA.  

If I was in your position and had a family I would stay put.  Know you may have your issues but look at your family, the good the LDS church as done for them.  As someone growing up who had WASPS turn their backs on him and had to listen to karens call mom squaw, I've yet to see that level of racism, entitletment and hypocrisy from your end of the religious divide.  Then again, I really know nothing of your position just what i've seen in life and what i'm seeing now.  I would have loved to have the things you've had in life, many are feeling their lack now.

Edited April 19, 2021 by poptart

[poptart]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

When the looters show up offer them something. If they want to take more give up or fight depending on the odds.

I worked downtown a bit last summer, amazing how the worst of the looting was ignored by the media.  Lots of high end stores were sacked, the areas that where being gentrified?  Lol not anymore.  There's a reason why I keep my ears to the ground for this stuff and IRL I keep to myself, makes no sense to be an attractive target.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Technically you don't need to be LDS to live with God.  Jesus does go to the Terrestrial Kingdom.  It is a great kingdom of glory.  In many respects, only LDS would appreciate the Celestial Kingdom because its purpose really fulfills LDS views.  If one does not believe in exaltation, it is not a kingdom for them as it is a kingdom of Gods. If one does not really believe in eternal families, they don't really need the Celestial kingdom as that is a kingdom about eternal families.  For the most part, people will get in the eternities exactly what they want, desire, or expect.  Ask a Christian what they want in the next life, they probably will say to live in Jesus and in a great kingdom.  They will get their wish in the Terrestrial kingdom.   Even an atheist get a reward as they can at least obtain the Telestial inheritance.  For LDS, we aspire to something even greater and if faithful, we can get something even greater than what others outside our faith are hoping for. 

In a member's mind God isn't Jesus, so how will that work? And usually a non-LDS will believe that Jesus is God. So this explanation doesn't change what I've said really, but appreciate your feedback. Or on second thought maybe it does, haha!! I'm editing this as I speak, I believe the non-LDS believe they'll be with their loved ones for eternity. It's the LDS church that takes that away by saying that you'll only live with your loved ones if you make covenants in the temple, so who is separating? Which church? Of course then there's the EV or other churches that say you'll wind up in hell if you don't believe in Jesus. So there's that saving grace that our church gives. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[2BizE]

I think living in Mormonism is like living in a small bubble.  You only have a tiny view.  Those that leave often speak about finding a whole new and fascinating world that they would have never known if not for leaving.  They face new struggles as well.  I think it is naive to think by leaving you won’t have challenges. You will, but you will also find new happiness.  Church leaders often teach that true happiness can only be found in the church. This is completely false.  There is much joy outside the church.  As far as political views, many people who leave find their political views changing at the same time.  They find the importance of shared happiness over individual capitalism.  

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

................... Now for some reason that I still don't understand, the negative information matters and me researching and trying to learn about it is taking up way more time than I should allow myself to put towards studying what I am starting to realize could be a 'bottomless pit". But I do realize that right now I'm the one MAKING this whole situation a "bottomless pit" for myself. ..............................

Is the rabbit hole paying dividends?

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

To be fair, Mormonism has a history of conflating politics with religion. It's not really a mystery why, it was a theocracy in its very recent past.

Mormonism as a theological belief system is to be differentiated from the political nonsense believed by most Mormons.  In that sense, Mormonism as a religion cannot be reconciled with certain political beliefs -- which are actually anti-Mormon.

The secondary question is, Was the LDS Church at any time in its history a theocracy?  For example, could we describe the United Firm or the United Order as theocracies in any true sense?  Thus, should we describe the Israeli kibbutz as a theocracy?  How about Amish communities., Mennonites, the Hutterite Brethren, the Basque Mondragon, or other communal societies?  Was ZCMI a theocracy?  Can we really describe voluntary cooperative societies as "theocratic"?  People and groups who vociferously opposed Brigham Young flourished in 19th century SLC.  How would that be possible in a theocracy?

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

For sure. But it is still how we make most decisions. Thing if the last big purchase or decision. It was motivated by emotion and justified by logic.

Verily.  And therein lies the risk.  Can we apply such judgements to religion?

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not me..

You are quite different from the norm, Tacenda.  That is why I so enjoy reading what you have to say.

[AtlanticMike]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Is the rabbit hole paying dividends?

Nope