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Church discipline proceedings on a member who no longer lives in the stake boundaries?


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7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Are they going to excommunicate all the LDS therapists that signed this letter?

They aren't even necessarily going to remove her membership. Not everyone that has a membership council called for them loses their membership.

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3 hours ago, ttribe said:

 

Ahhh, I had forgotten that.  So, yes, there's precedent.  Not sure as to the fairness, but that's a different discussion.

It is fair.  The priesthood leader with intimate detailed knowledge is the best to handle it. Public figures often want to frustrate or delay.  Once a person is in the discipline process it takes hold. You can't move away.  It's like being a lawyer.  If I'm being disciplined by the state bar I can't simply resign and pick up in a different state. 

The NT clearly requires a discipline procedure.  Paul writes about it with a wordplay for castration.  It must be completed.

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23 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

"Bishops are not good therapists and therapists are not good Bishops." I agree with this.

One of the best Bishops I have ever known was a psychiatrist. He grew up in Idaho and had an Ivy League education.

He wore a fine beard and a pair of Birkenstocks to church every Sunday. He was intelligent, observant, jovial, kind, and just an honest to goodness all-around good person. 

I don't think there was anyone in the ward who didn't think he was (at minimum) a "good Bishop." YMMV.

 

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

It is fair.  The priesthood leader with intimate detailed knowledge is the best to handle it. Public figures often want to frustrate or delay.  Once a person is in the discipline process it takes hold. You can't move away.  It's like being a lawyer.  If I'm being disciplined by the state bar I can't simply resign and pick up in a different state. 

The NT clearly requires a discipline procedure.  Paul writes about it with a wordplay for castration.  It must be completed.

Well, in this case, she moved before the disciplinary process began.  It's puzzling what prompted the KS SP to become intimately familiar with her work because, to hear her tell it, no one had said anything before this and she'd been actively and publicly taking the now "apostate" positions for a number of years.

Edited by ttribe
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7 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Isn't she connected to Dehlin?  I think it would be better for the church to bend a little on this one, if it is a common practice, and have the Utah stake president take jurisdiction.  I know the church leaders don't want to give the impression that SLC has any say in these matters.  However, why give Mr. Dehlin any more ammunition?

 

7 hours ago, ttribe said:

She has been on Mormon Stories this week, but I don't know that I would consider her "connected" to Dehlin (of whom I am not a fan) in any meaningful way.

She is very connected with the open stories foundation: 

https://www.openstoriesfoundation.org/our-team/

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How terribly sad.  I am one who believes the process can be done with a bishopric, or even just one leader, and accomplish the repentance process without the shame.  Keep the guilt, lose the shame.  And anyone who thinks that every church court is the squeaky clean process that smac is claiming they are is sorely mistaken.  Human beings can be pretty brutal. 

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10 hours ago, ttribe said:

Nevermind.

Edited by 3DOP
These "advocacy policies" are only NOW "being called apostasy"? Since 1830, until NOW, these " advocacy policies" were okay?
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4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I've sat in on multiple church courts as both a member of the bishopric and also as a member of the high council.. Too many to count  I've long believed that these courts should be abandoned by the church and abolished.  They rarely achieve the intended goals. They do nothing to aid the healing of the accused and are often nothing more than spiritual overreach and abuse.  I've yet to see a single member whose membership was stripped of them return to the fold, not one.  Oh the stories I could tell.  

I've often wondered why the church puts its members through these ordeals. The humiliation alone is beyond the pale for these poor souls.  I've witnesses grown men (and women) reduced to such a depths of humiliation that I've had to worry about them taking their own lives after being put through their so called courts of love.  It's been terrible to witness fellow human beings being put through these spiritually abusive courts, no matter what you call them, they are shameful and barbaric.

There is nothing that a court can achieve that couldn't also be achieved by a private one on one consultation with a bishop through confession, nothing.

The church puts its own hubris and self interests above those of its own members.

From what I can ascertain with this particular case, it seems like a witch hunt.  Why is the church after this poor woman.  She did nothing to the church and should be left alone in peace.  It's situation like this that I sincerely wonder who is in charge and why are they abusing these poor people. Its truly embarrassing and so unnecessary and only serves the interests of the church. 

This is my first post on this forum, and I’m unlikely to post again. I feel so strongly, however, about what has been said here that I feel compelled to add my witness. 
 

I have witnessed horrific spiritual abuse in disciplinary councils.  I have seen behavior by church leaders so shameful that I couldn’t believe it was happening.
 

I have been a part of a disciplinary council of a public figure. The order to excommunicate the individual was given well in advance by the Committee for Strengthening Church Members. The actual disciplinary council was a formality and resembled a kangaroo court.  The evidence against the individual was all compiled by the COB and local leaders simply carried out orders.  The accused was not given any meaningful chance for a defense or to influence the outcome.

My experience with non-public figures has been mixed. Some good results but the majority have been filled with shaming and humiliation. 
 

I’m not here to argue these issues. I just want to add my witness to what the previous poster has described.It saddens me to see it happen all too often.

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9 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

 

 I am sorry tttribett. I should mind my own business. I don't know how I quoted you saying what you did not say. Sorry. I would make it go away if I knew how. 

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2 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

 I am sorry tttribett. I should mind my own business. I don't know how I quoted you saying what you did not say. Sorry. I would make it go away if I knew how. 

No worries. Stuff happens. 

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If she is supposed to have violated some set of rules in Kansas, this would likely be best known to those in Kansas, and the most important witnesses there.  Moving it to a new jurisdiction (where no one knows her) might merely complicate matters.  Dehlin's connection is irrelevant, unless this is part of a conspiracy.  What would be done if this were a sexual abuse matter?  How would transferring it make it better?

Ms. Helfer-Parker is part of Dehlin's thrive circle and so he might want to make more out of this than is warranted for publicity sake, you know, giving the church a black eye.  She's been away from Kansas for more than 1 1/2 years, so, perhaps she should be tried where she now lives?  Does apostasy occur in a specific place or does it reside with the individual?  You obviously are assuming that she did something of a sexual nature because she is a sex therapist and so of course that has to be what it is about.  But what if it is for apostasy?  Apostasy follows the person and so she should be tried where she is.

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Natasha Helfer has written a number of blog posts criticizing President Nelson, including this one: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2019/04/plea-to-president-nelson-about-families.html

In it she accuses him of causing harm by stating that some families will not be together in the eternities. She says: "You have so much power and are wielding it irresponsibly. Wielding it in ways that have significant consequences. Stop causing the type of wreckage I, and my many concerned colleagues, have to sew up in the cardiac surgical room of the therapy chair." A version of the post was published in the Salt Lake Tribune.

She and John Dehlin also host retreats for people leaving the Church.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Latter Day Witness said:

I have witnessed horrific spiritual abuse in disciplinary councils.  I have seen behavior by church leaders so shameful that I couldn’t believe it was happening.

I have been a part of a disciplinary council of a public figure. The order to excommunicate the individual was given well in advance by the Committee for Strengthening Church Members. The actual disciplinary council was a formality and resembled a kangaroo court.  The evidence against the individual was all compiled by the COB and local leaders simply carried out orders.  The accused was not given any meaningful chance for a defense or to influence the outcome.

I have witnessed no such things, and therefore I disbelieve what you have written.

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2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

 I am sorry tttribett. I should mind my own business. I don't know how I quoted you saying what you did not say. Sorry. I would make it go away if I knew how. 

This happens when you quote someone who is quoting someone. Sometimes, I will forget to scroll backward to the original quote too.

Edited by bsjkki
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36 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I don't think we all have the same experiences. Just because yours have all been good experiences does not mean others have not experienced something else.

Oh, I get that. And some of my experiences in the Church haven't been too great, to be honest.

But a drive-by post from someone who has never posted before and won't post again formulaically reciting apostate talking points as his own personal experiences should be immediately suspect.

I was a member of a stake presidency when a high-profile apostate (whose name would be known to many on this forum) was excommunicated. I've read the online discussions by people who are certain that the entire thing was orchestrated by some secretive Church committee in SLC, that the outcome was pre-determined, that the actual council was a kangaroo court, that the person was granted no opportunity to defend himself, that we were all just scared of the truth and needed to silence the person, etc. None of this is true.

And it's almost certainly not true in anyone's personal experience.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Oh, I get that. But a drive-by post from someone who has never posted before and won't post again formulaically reciting apostate talking points as his own personal experiences should be immediately suspect.

I was a member of a stake presidency when a high-profile apostate (whose name would be known to many on this forum) was excommunicated. I've read the online discussions by people who are certain that the entire thing was orchestrated by some secretive Church committee in SLC, that the outcome was pre-determined, that the actual council was a kangaroo court, that the person was granted no opportunity to defend himself, that we were all just scared of the truth and needed to silence the person, etc. None of this is true.

And it's almost certainly not true in anyone's personal experience.

I know someone who said their disciplinary counsel was the worst thing they have ever gone through and not because it was 'hard' but because it was an awful experience due to the format and how he was treated.  (He was not allowed to go to the restroom by himself but had to be escorted...I remember this really bothering him among other things) He's still active. So, I'm sure some are run in different ways. Maybe he is a troll but dismissing someone else's experience based on not having experienced something yourself (which is what you said) is not a logical conclusion to make. You're statement basically calling him a troll, has a bit more reason.

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4 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I listened to parts of her interview. I don’t think she’s doing her self a favor by going public with John Dehlin but I admit it was interesting to listen to her story. I feel for her, being a woman The thought of sitting in a room to face possible discipline from a group of men (even righteous and well meaning men) is kind of terrifying. I was surprised that she was offered the opportunity to bring a Relief Society president with her although in her case that’s not possible.  I think that only giving her a week to prepare is completely unreasonable. She works full-time and lives in another state. How could she possibly make arrangements to get back there in time and have witnesses approved and transported in just a week? I would think a month would be the minimum in those circumstances.

My take is that the way it is being done is a signal to her that it's already decided. 

 

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What harm is she doing? And why aren't those that commit worse sins get ex'd? I don't think the church should even ex people anymore.

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