Religious decline among white working class.

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, poptart said:

I look at the institution/estate that Christianity for what it is.  I like what an LDS friend of mine had to say, let good to good.  Shame politics has to ruin this, what can you do...

Christianity is going nowhere, it'll go through some rough times but it's staying put.  As it is the Catholic Church is still building/buying out hospitals and running schools.  Parish I went to for a bit had one of the most affordable k-8 schools I had ever seen, tuition for the year was like, 2k.  That was 4 years ago.  Unless people in this country are willing to come together and stop backstabbing each other the church will always have a corner on education and healthcare, just as always.  It was the church that started the first hospitals in Europe when everyone else was too busy smelling bad and killing each other to care.

Same with the LDS church, you guys do so much good that cities and states count on you.  Also your Luaus, that alone makes me hope you keep growing.  

I guess we will never know what the world would look like without Christianity and other religions.  They certainly, in spite of all teh bad, have done much good. But now, we have grown up.  We can do good in a better way.

[Bob Crockett]

23 hours ago, Teancum said:

Society in general is realizing   and understanding  that critical thinking and the scientific method are the way to go and realizing religion and faith are problematic ways to understand truth.  Time to move on and it seems we are,  Hooray!

Secular humanism is an unhappy place to be.  

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Secular humanism is an unhappy place to be.  

Hmmm No I do not think so. And the world will hopefully be better of because of it,  Science is true whether you believe it or not. Religion, not so much.

[Zeniff]

On 4/10/2021 at 11:53 AM, poptart said:

Curious if any of you are seeing this in your wards/churches.  

White working-class adults are leaving our churches. What can we do to keep them? | America Magazine

Why Is the Church Losing White Working Class Americans? | RELEVANT (relevantmagazine.com)

America in general is becoming less religious and more political.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america-politics-religion/618072/

I suspect much of the rest of the world is the same or similar.

15 hours ago, california boy said:

It is religion itself that has caused political extremism. Just one example of this shows up in a poll conducted last month, that found about 40% of white evangelical Protestants said they likely would not get vaccinated, compared to about 25% of all Americans, 28% of white mainline Protestants and 27% of Protestants who are not white. When did taking a vaccine become a religious belief?  Who is amplifying this message and making it a religious issue?  If your political views don't align with a certain political party, where does one go to worship God?  A recent conference talk addressed this issue and the thread about that talk quickly turned political. Heck, a significant number of every thread on this board often turns political.  Why does that happen, when this site is a religious board, not a political board?  These days, people can not separate religion from politics.  

I think most people know the difference well enough to separate politics from religion and religion from politics.  What we are seeing is that a lot of people like both religion and politics and that when given a choice many discuss politics more than religion.

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Unfortunately I have seen this as well, one of my former roommates from BYU has been evangelizing this content (anti-vaxx, Mark of the Beast conspiracies--if you don't want to click) for a while now. I am not sure of the denomination, though. In any case it is extremely disturbing.

I just spoke with one of the people I was talking about earlier in this thread (specifically to ask them if their opinion on the COVID vaccines has changed), and that person is now more than ever convinced that the vaccines have something to do with the mark of the beast.

I also came across this February 16, 2021 Washington Post article:   On social media, vaccine misinformation mixes with extreme faith: Even with renewed efforts by tech companies, religious-themed misinformation is among the hardest to police

Quoting the first four paragraphs of the article:

Quote

In an insular world on the social media app TikTok, young Christians act out biblically inspired scenes in which they are forced to take a vaccine for the coronavirus, only to end up splattered in fake blood and on the brink of death.

The melodramatic videos are an attempt to represent how the introduction of coronavirus vaccines could herald the biblical End Time. Along with hundreds of thousands of other vaccine-questioning posts by social media users all over the world, they’re demonstrating the ways in which health misinformation is targeting Christians, some reaching sizable audiences.

Some churches and Christian ministries with large online followings — as well as Christian influencers on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter and YouTube — are making false claims that vaccines contain fetal tissue or microchips, or are construing associations between vaccine ingredients and the devil. Others talk about how coronavirus vaccines and masks contain or herald the “mark of the beast,” a reference to an apocalyptic passage from the Book of Revelation that suggests that the Antichrist will test Christians by asking them to put a mark on their bodies.

The rapid spread of this material has triggered debate and concern among U.S. Christian leaders and experts who believe the religious movement against vaccines is growing, even as many leaders such as Pope Francis and Southern Baptist Convention policy leader Russell Moore are urging people to get shots. Both approved vaccines, Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, passed rigorous federal safety reviews and were shown to be more than 94 percent effective at preventing disease.

And from a little later in the article:

Quote

Facebook and Facebook-owned Instagram banned in December covid-related content associated with the mark of the beast, fetal tissue myths and misinformation connecting vaccine ingredients to the Antichrist as part of a broader ban on vaccine-related conspiracy theories. Such material has become harder to find but is still available, according to a Washington Post review using the Facebook-owned analytics tool CrowdTangle.

For example, in late December, a Facebook page with 61,000 followers called Exposing Satanic World Government posted a screenshot from the right-wing news site Gab, in which a user claimed that Amazon, banks and airlines would force people to take the vaccine. The screenshot shows Gab founder Andrew Torba commenting that such practices were the “Mark of the beast.” The post, which Facebook removed after The Post shared it with the company, had 315 likes and shares. (Amazon founder and chief executive Jeff Bezos owns The Post.)

TikTok banned two hashtags, #MarkOfTheBeastIsTheCovid19Vaccine and #VaccineIsTheMarkOfTheBeast, in late January in response to The Post’s inquiry. The company said the hashtags and affiliated ones, which had over 700,000 views in December, were tied to misinformation about coronavirus vaccines and violated the company’s medical misinformation policy. The company has banned such misinformation since March.

This kind of behavior (of spreading misinformation) is of far greater concern than any pandemic in my opinion.  And no vaccine can fix it.  We're really doomed.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Secular humanism is an unhappy place to be.  

While I agree it is not ideal I think it is vastly superior to fundamentalist whackjobism.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Could it be the reason why some don’t feel the pressure to get vaccinated is because there’s a better than 99% COVID survival rate for those who come down with the disease, and that the recovery rate is very high for those who are otherwise healthy and not suffering from comorbidities? Combine this with the fact that some prominent virologists are now saying 2/3 of the population of the US has already contracted the virus, the vast majority asymptomatically.

And in consideration of the fact that I’m strong, healthy, well-nourished, athletic and wear a mask, it seems to me I’ve got a much better chance of getting severely injured or killed every time I take my car out on the road and zoom down the highway at 70 mph. And yet there’s even a surefire “vaccine” to prevent road accidents — stay home in lockdown mode and don’t drive, get a job where you can work from home, and move next to a cluster of stores that are within easy walking distance. 

And what happens when herd immunity is reached? Are those who’ve been vaccinated going to insist everyone else be vaccinated anyway because they’re not going to think it’s fair the some escaped the disease without having to get vaccinate?

Meanwhile large portions of the country have been economically devastated becausre so many in the low risk age category are paralyzed with fear. They’d rather let the United States economy go down the tubes, and allow their children live in servitude and impoverishment because they allowed fear mongers to get them to jump out of their skins with panic.

I live 20 miles from Manhattan and the city is a depressing virtual ghost town with many who are going to die impoverished because the COVID lockdown “cure” has proved to be much more harmful, in the long run, than the disease itself. And now it’s almost certain worldwide economic collapse is is going to destroy the livelihoods and take the lives of many more people than COVID ever could because too many were unwilling to face the pandemic with courage and a determination to save the future. I can assure you that the early Mormon pioneers wouldn’t have passively allowed themselves to go down without a faithful and courageous fight for the future generations. This is what happens when nations give up on God. Clinging to life, no matter how miserable, becomes the all consuming objective. 

President Nelson respectfully disagrees. I disrespectfully disagree. He is a better person than I am.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Zeniff said:

America in general is becoming less religious and more political.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america-politics-religion/618072/

I suspect much of the rest of the world is the same or similar.

I think most people know the difference well enough to separate politics from religion and religion from politics.  What we are seeing is that a lot of people like both religion and politics and that when given a choice many discuss politics more than religion.

I am not talking about not knowing the difference between religion and politics.  I am talking about identifying the political party they support as a necessary extension of their religion.  Many Democrats feel uncomfortable identifying themselves as Democrats among some religious groups.  It is like if you are not Republican, then you can't be our kind of "christian".  

[Metis_LDS]

I wish I was a better writer.  Okay so a decline in persons being in churches I see it and I agree.  What keeps my attention is people believing in other things.  Good or bad depending on your views. People seem to have an internal born need to believe in bigger than themselves.  It is shifting away from churches and maybe away from God but they just replace it with other things that they do not have much evidence for or maybe they follow a path, but it is a rare person that does not believe in something beyond themselves.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

People seem to have an internal born need to believe in bigger than themselves. 

It would be interesting to put up comparable measures of changing beliefs in superstitions and things like psychics vs identification with a church/religion. 
 

Quote

Students with either low religious service attendance or very high attendance had lower paranormal and pseudoscientific beliefs.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11191-018-9956-0

Edited April 13, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

Curious, does anyone think privileged Christians in this country think of the long term damage they've caused?  The poor they've alienated?  The children from poor families they've indirectly shunned?  You can go back and forth about whatever study you cherry pick that fits your pov all you like, here we are.  Unfortunately people have swapped religion for politics while covering it with a religious mantle.

[halconero]

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

Not for a long  time but it is headed towards the death it deserves.

Is it though? This thread is about the decline of religion as understood through the substantive lense, which I’d argue is the least influential sociologically speaking. I don’t see any trends that indicate religion is declining vis a vis the functional definition.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, halconero said:

Is it though? This thread is about the decline of religion as understood through the substantive lense, which I’d argue is the least influential sociologically speaking. I don’t see any trends that indicate religion is declining vis a vis the functional definition.

Well check out the trends in Europe and now the US.

[carbon dioxide]

On 4/11/2021 at 10:10 PM, california boy said:

It is religion itself that has caused political extremism. Just one example of this shows up in a poll conducted last month, that found about 40% of white evangelical Protestants said they likely would not get vaccinated, compared to about 25% of all Americans, 28% of white mainline Protestants and 27% of Protestants who are not white. When did taking a vaccine become a religious belief?  Who is amplifying this message and making it a religious issue?  If your political views don't align with a certain political party, where does one go to worship God?  A recent conference talk addressed this issue and the thread about that talk quickly turned political. Heck, a significant number of every thread on this board often turns political.  Why does that happen, when this site is a religious board, not a political board?  These days, people can not separate religion from politics.  

 

 

There is mixing or religion and politics but religion does not necessarily cause it.   Europe is much more secular than the US but is has also a fairly large number of people against vaccines.  "Some Of The World’s Top Anti-Vaccine Countries Are In Europe" https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/global-survey-vaccine-safety-measles-outbreaks

People will use anything to support a viewpoint they have. A religious person might find religious reasons not to take a vaccine.  A totally secular person might find non-religious reasons.   For some, a religion might make someone more radical, for others less radical.  My religious views moderate my political views.  When I view all political views from an eternal perspective, it changes how I react to something. 

I see the changes in society towards more secularization will result in a much more polarized political environment.  I believe those who advocate "humanism" will be very disappointed in their hopes of a more peaceful world.  People are the same today as has been for thousands of years.  Little has changed.  People will always find reasons to hate each other and fight.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by carbon dioxide

[Meadowchik]

On 4/12/2021 at 11:26 PM, InCognitus said:

I just spoke with one of the people I was talking about earlier in this thread (specifically to ask them if their opinion on the COVID vaccines has changed), and that person is now more than ever convinced that the vaccines have something to do with the mark of the beast.

I also came across this February 16, 2021 Washington Post article:   On social media, vaccine misinformation mixes with extreme faith: Even with renewed efforts by tech companies, religious-themed misinformation is among the hardest to police

Quoting the first four paragraphs of the article:

And from a little later in the article:

This kind of behavior (of spreading misinformation) is of far greater concern than any pandemic in my opinion.  And no vaccine can fix it.  We're really doomed.

That's very bad, but hopefully it does not spell doom.

[Meadowchik]

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

There is mixing or religion and politics but religion does not necessarily cause it.   Europe is much more secular than the US but is has also a fairly large number of people against vaccines.  "Some Of The World’s Top Anti-Vaccine Countries Are In Europe" https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/global-survey-vaccine-safety-measles-outbreaks

People will use anything to support a viewpoint they have. A religious person might find religious reasons not to take a vaccine.  A totally secular person might find non-religious reasons.   For some, a religion might make someone more radical, for others less radical.  My religious views moderate my political views.  When I view all political views from an eternal perspective, it changes how I react to something. 

I see the changes in society towards more secularization will result in a much more polarized political environment.  I believe those who advocate "humanism" will be very disappointed in their hopes of a more peaceful world.  People are the same today as has been for thousands of years.  Little has changed.  People will always find reasons to hate each other and fight.

 

Your religious views moderate your political views, but others' religious views amplify their extreme views. 

What evidence do you have that secular beliefs don't moderate political views? There are lots of growing secular communities which are very morally and socially minded.

[poptart]

Something a bit more objective, for those of you with children/grandchildren what do you plan to do as this will likely continue?  I'll add to this, a lot of the alt-right/neo nazi groups are quite popular among poor whites.  The privileged can argue and cherry pick all you like, this is how things are right now.  As it is the gov't is playing wack-a-mole with groups like Atomwaffen, they claim to disband yet pop up somewhere else.  These guys like to hang out on the deep web. various discords and have become like chameleons.  Antifa as well is recruiting these people, a lot of the fires started in OR and WA last year were done by felons who I don't think were even from the area.  My guess is they were likely given a one way bus ticket from someplace in the midwest like a lot of homeless people are.  Anyway, this will the the country your children and grandchildren will be living in, like it or not.  You also have a large segment of the population who didn't have good childhoods and do not care at all what happens to them.  We're smart enough to keep quite and just lie in public when need be but deep down?  Different story especially at the polls.  Are you guys going to just spout things like Jesus is going to come back any minute now?  I blame party XYZ?  Or are you going to try to do something constructive?  I don't mean to say it's all your fault?  My reasoning is at the end of the day unless you have the resources to just move your whole family abroad you guys stand to lose the most.  The likes of me really don't count for much but collectively we're causing a huge headache, it's families like yours who stand to lose the most.  Also, before anyone cherrypicks the stats on conservative religious families having the most children don't forget, you do depend on a stable society with good schools, police, jails, healthcare and mental health to make it happen, when you have to raise children in a hostile society like we're slowly getting, that becomes a lot more difficult.  

Part of this comes from a conversation I had with a first generation friend with roots in Spain.  As a people Americans have had it so good for so long, they can't fathom the kinds of bad times that people way back when endured.  People can't fathom food shortages because supply lines are crap, a society where people distrust each other and will do nothing when you're assaulted on the street or your home is broken into and people do nothing.  A society where even if you're privileged enough to have good networks that orgs like the LDS church is fortunate enough to have everything else has crumbled and you're on everyones hate list.  You have no Utah left to flee to, sure you can move around but that's what everyone else who can is doing right now.  Really, it's sad seeing all this play out, as bad as I had it I've always been content to just work and be left alone, worst I do is just watch the mayhem from afar and laugh from behind my monitor.  Not everyone is as well meaning as I am.

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Your religious views moderate your political views, but others' religious views amplify their extreme views. 

What evidence do you have that secular beliefs don't moderate political views? There are lots of growing secular communities which are very morally and socially minded.

Like China? Russia?

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Like China? Russia?

How do you mean? 

[poptart]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Like China? Russia?

https://www.them.us/story/russia-outlaws-same-sex-marriage-bans-trans-adoption

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjkuti_HmFU&t=71s

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

How do you mean? 

Aren't these basically secular societies? Should we pattern ourselves after them?

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Aren't these basically secular societies? Should we pattern ourselves after them?

How are they examples of secular beliefs that don't moderate political views?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

How are they examples of secular beliefs that don't moderate political views?

I think it was the very moral and socially conscious part he was challenging for these two nations.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 4/12/2021 at 2:22 PM, Zeniff said:

I think most people know the difference well enough to separate politics from religion and religion from politics.

I am not as optimistic on this point as you are.

[rodheadlee]

19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

How are they examples of secular beliefs that don't moderate political views?

You said " there are lots of secular communities which are very morally and socially minded."

I gave two examples of secular communities and asked if we should pattern ourselves after them. Perhaps you could give an alternate example. I believe these two Nations do not let religion interfere with politics, which would make them secular communities.