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Status of church


Status of church normalization  

61 members have voted

  1. 1. To what extent is your Sunday meeting schedule "back to normal?"

    • All meetings are still virtual only
    • Sacrament meeting is in person, but 2nd hour is virtual only
    • Both hours are offered in-person
    • Hybrid: In-person sacrament meeting alternates between segments of the ward
  2. 2. What is the level of "mitigation protocols" enforcement in your church meetings? (masks,

    • Stringently enforced/insisted upon
    • Whatever people want to do, in practice


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56 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Well I think it’s a little WTF myself.  I don’t know how otherwise intelligent people read that statement and nod along.  But to each their own.  I said I was offering reasons for why people are vaccine hesitant.

The letter said “thanks for being open to our suggestions”, that’s it!  I said the same thing in an email to our medical director yesterday who is making some changes in our health department, full well knowing that she is not going to implement my recommendations.  She gave me the time and considered it though.   Sheesh.  That is no smoking gun that teachers unions have unreasonable influence over cdc guidelines.  “Wtf” is right. Again, where’s the beef?

56 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Base decisions off the science, not political influence…

I wish we could divorce the two somehow.  The CDC fought with the Trump administration on just about everything, what happened was unprecedented in political manipulation.  These are scientists not politicians, leave them the hell alone like every other president has done.   Why is it that there is no outrage from the right about this?  You don’t see the political scapegoat here?  Trump can do no wrong, but throw the CDC under the bus for everything the Trump administration did with their political manipulation and strong arming.  We all see his fingerprint on all the stuff you posted above.  Why not get mad at him instead of the CDC for resisting?

Edited by pogi
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3 hours ago, pogi said:

The letter said “thanks for being open to our suggestions”, that’s it!  I said the same thing in an email to our medical director yesterday who is making some changes in our health department, full well knowing that she is not going to implement my recommendations.  She gave me the time and considered it though.   Sheesh.  That is no smoking gun that teachers unions have unreasonable influence over cdc guidelines.  Wtf is right.

I wish we could divorce the two somehow.  The CDC fought with the Trump administration on just about everything, what happened was unprecedented in political manipulation.  These are scientists not politicians, leave them the hell alone like every other president has done.   Why is it that there is no outrage from the right about this?  You don’t see the political scapegoat here?  Trump can do no wrong, but throw the CDC under the bus for everything the Trump administration did with their political manipulation and strong arming. 

Well, you’ve come a long way since a few posts ago, so I’ll concede there is no smoking gun on the teachers union.

I think your problem is believing vaccine hesitancy is coming exclusively from the “right” and probably Trump supporters.  For a lot of them, this is most certainly true.  But I voted for the guy, and as I said, I’m vaxxed. I live in Fairfax, Virginia…I can tell you anecdotally, that vaccine hesitancy isn’t solely from the political right.  You’d be very surprised.  A lot of them…are African American co workers.

Again, Trump was wrong, and I didn’t approve of the way he handled much of anything concerning the pandemic.  

Pretending, like some here, that these are crackpot conspiracies not worthy of consideration, just makes you dismissive of the fact—which anyone has been able to see—that the experts have stepped on rakes time after time since this mess began.  I never attribute nefarious intentions to what can be more easily explained by human incompetence and mistakes, although there have definitely been some bad actors.  But the fact remains that the error is still there.  I work in the private sector.  In  semiconductors.  I work in an environment where there is very little tolerance for error.  I don’t understand people who want to give an “A” for effort to government agencies, all the while mistakes and bad policy continue to be made.  There’s a price to pay for it.  I’m saying you need to understand what that price is.  It is the current hesitancy we are experiencing today. 

My initial statement, I believe, still stands.  The scientific and medical community has done, in the near future, immense harm to its credibility with a significant portion of the population.  Personally, I lack confidence with certain individuals, not on the community as a whole.  But I understand why others would choose to believe otherwise.

Edited by SteveO
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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Socialized medicine looks pretty good to many Americans who know that they are one medical crisis away from bankruptcy.

Medical insurance was a stupid idea created post-WW2 to try to reel in workers in the post-war boom economy. It has since become mandatory to have because prices rose to match it. The United States gets incredibly bad outcomes for how much is spent on health care. The free hand of the market wouldn’t fix the problem either. When it is ‘pay or die’ the consumer doesn’t have power to choose to purchase what they want.

A good reason heath care should not be market driven.

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1 hour ago, SteveO said:

I was referring more to this: 

 

I took it that you were saying the “other side” was being unreasonable or inconsiderate because they don’t share the same feelings of physical threat and anxiety.  
 

While some of them are jerks, I don’t think most of them are doing it to intentionally antagonize or frustrate those who think differently.  For the reasons I pointed out, I understand, although don’t agree with, their decision not to get vaccinated and not wear a mask.

I was saying this more distanced than I normally would. I know I have a bias for what side I empathize with more. But this wasn't necessarily about empathy but mapping out the state of a really difficult impasse that is likely to be broader and deeper to cross than gay marriage. Think of it this way, on gay marriage the main impediments and perceived risks around the debate were on one end a sense of cultural relevance and potential loss of the meaning to marriage (ie. largely social risk). On the other a desire to define ones relationship and receive cultural recognition of said relationship as equally valid and/or to receive the legal rights afforded married couples (social and/or legal risk). For an active lds audience, the latter argument is largely in behalf of other people not themselves that they may have a fairly limited connection to. This potential risk to these groups drives the emotional intensity and though these risks are by no means small they don't match up to the current issue of the pandemic.

The potential risk for the pandemic are simply bigger. It is an issue that effects basic human functions: mortality, chronic health concerns, and prolonged psychological and familial stress from chronic anxiety and limited social contacts, disrupted income and life patterns, etc are what's at risk for one side. 2 of these are often downplayed on the "other side" and the risks mentioned may focus on other aspects of prolonged psychological distress related to (and blamed on) the pandemic response, reduced business or income streams, disrupted life patterns, and a sense of infringement of civil rights in favor for systems they tend to distrust. Again these risks drive the emotional intensity we currently see( Note: I'm putting no emotional label on what the "other side" is doing per se). And these risks are generally lopsided on basic concerns....but these are still far more likely to effect us all personally and therefore pull out harder emotional hurdles towards "unity." Particularly at a time where our unity as a society in the US was already fraying and particularly when our behaviors are solid indicators of where we stand on an issue. It's more real and the consequences of this debate more direct than gay marriage.

---Longer answer below --- 

  I note the lopsidedness not to say that one side should "win" per se...but to point out that this leaves just the experience of meeting and conversing productively hard to pull off. Let's think of the church example someone pulled up, where masked people and unmasked sit separately. It's not just their pre-judgments of the other side that's coming into effect here....it's their very real concern that being near umasked and/or unvaxxed people increases their personal risk of illness. They're not just something they judge, they're something they see as a potential threat to their health and if not theirs, someone near them or others they may come in contact with. Being near the unvaxxed or unmasked likely causes anxiety. That would become an emotional hurdle without the prolonged problem in our communities. Since it's prolonged and many on that end have dug in harder on their points, unity itself becomes a perceived risk. As in if I find unity with those who refuse to take this seriously, I must accept and become complicit in loss of life and put my family at risk for their comfort. Unity and understanding doesn't work in this scenario. And insisting on it is what likely drives many like me to anger and labeling behaviors. And my go-to personality leans to empathy, understanding, and finding points of unity.  

This lopsidedness also effects how people from the other end come to this. Their initial concerns have likely in their experiences or mind been reified. At first the experiences around covid were also likely limited while the potential risks surrounding work, school, and daily living were more readily felt and experienced. These experiences were validated by information streams and social groups that focused on these and reduced the effects from covid. So the fears and stress from the response to covid rarely, if ever, outweighed the threat and stress around covid itself. Their emotional intensity would be on the things that touched them most. Evidence of varying civil liberties being crossed and institutional inconsistencies became a rallying cry and each point of following rules or mandates they weren't fully sold on as necessary became an offense and a breach of rights. Because this happened multiple times in different ways with little processing time between events (a couple months or weeks is not a lot of time for people to work to see the "other side particularly when they're feeling affronted) there was more space for emotional reactivity on both ends. This feeds division, tightens assumptions on what is a "trustworthy" info source, and shrinks the already small amount of voices available to them that say otherwise. These voices also become a form of threat. Not to life, but to their assumptions about liberty and their patterns to living. Negative attributions push this further, but at this point the space for middle ground shrinks because the only appropriate conclusion for the other side is one where they break through their skepticism of institutions and growing doubts and fears about vaccines and/or masks and choose both. They have to give up "more" than the other side has to give. 

Some of the usual tools also won't work either. There is no live and let live ending to this. Both sides are expecting the other to cave to some degree on concerns that they hold hold as absolutes. Understanding and compassion only go so far, because at some point the other is still viewed and seen as wrong (whether or not "wrong" than follows with dehumanizing labels). Coming away from a discussion without change in viewpoint to some degree is not sufficient. Long periods of discussing and slowly changing people's minds comes at too high of a price for cost of life and spread of deaths.

 

With luv,

BD

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8 hours ago, SteveO said:

But I voted for the guy, and as I said, I’m vaxxed. 

You voted for an anti-scientific loon who was an openly anti-scientific loon before the election? And now you are complaining that the messaging from an agency that had to answer to said loon and to objective reality made some missteps in communication? You hobbled them and are now condescendingly accusing them of stumbling.

Maybe you should retire the soapbox and bust out the sackcloth and ashes instead?

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16 hours ago, SteveO said:

I think your problem is believing vaccine hesitancy is coming exclusively from the “right” and probably Trump supporters.  For a lot of them, this is most certainly true.  But I voted for the guy, and as I said, I’m vaxxed. I live in Fairfax, Virginia…I can tell you anecdotally, that vaccine hesitancy isn’t solely from the political right.  You’d be very surprised.  A lot of them…are African American co workers.

There have been trust issues with the black community and medicine dating back to the infamous Tuskegee syphilis study, and before that back to slavery with unethical experiments and sterilization of women.  Lets not pretend that the mistrust in this population has anything to do to the CDC "stepping on rakes" during the pandemic.  On the contrary, concerted public health efforts have made historic leaps and bounds with this population during the pandemic in improving trust and increasing vaccination rates to historic highs, even while the alt-right quacks have made leaps and bounds in increasing mistrust within the mainstream right during the same time period.

16 hours ago, SteveO said:

Pretending, like some here, that these are crackpot conspiracies not worthy of consideration, just makes you dismissive of the fact—which anyone has been able to see—that the experts have stepped on rakes time after time since this mess began. 

Pretending like these "crackpot conspiracies" (your words) are worthy of consideration is...I don't have words.  We don't need to give credence or light to these conspiracy theories to hold the medical establishment accountable for errors and mistakes.  You say that you "understand" the mistrust that these people display.  But you don't seem to understand that there is a huge chasm between the mistakes that you bring up here (some of which have been debunked) and the conspiracy theories being populated by these people.  You are not the same as them.  You are vaccinated and support vaccines.  You are the enemy.  Lets not cushion their harmful behavior and lies with empathy.  It is causing real harm and such empathy only makes it more popular and acceptable among moderates to delve into alt-extremism.  It is becoming mainstream, and that will only hurt us all. 

You frame this mistrust as result of missteps during the pandemic, but mistrust among these factions of people go back WAY before the pandemic, and absolutely is not limited to the alt-right.   Ironically, the two groups that cause more harm to vaccination efforts than probably anybody else are on complete opposites of the political spectrum - the alt-right and alt-med populations.  We have crazy right-wingers on one hand, and the other hand is crazy left-winger hippie naturalists with a strong distrust in corporate medicine and money influenced machines.   As different as they are ideologically, they are like 2 peas in a pod and have been the way they are long before the pandemic ever began.  The biggest thing that changed during the pandemic to make this mistrust of public health more mainstream is that the alt-right ideology and conspiracies were normalized and befriended by the president, and the party to a considerable degree followed in suit.   This mistrust has long existed in America, and Trump successfully tapped into it, made it mainstream, and tried to use it to his political advantage.  That is now backfiring for him.  

Don't consider my resistance to the deluge of misinformation leading to mistrust in public health officials and the medical establishment in general as a blindness to their mistakes.  Some criticisms are based in reality and deserve attention.  When the alt-right and alt-med groups discuss these problems however, the facts are often exaggerated beyond recognition, and a lot of it is not based in reality at all.  It is good to try and understand them.  It is not good to make excuses for them and enable their ideologies with empathy.  It has gotten so bad that the Church has created a whole section in the handbook on defending ourselves against it:

Quote

 

In today’s world, information is easy to access and share. This can be a great blessing for those seeking to be educated and informed. However, many sources of information are unreliable and do not edify. Some sources seek to promote...fear or baseless conspiracy theories (see 3 Nephi 11:30; Mosiah 2:32). Therefore, it is important that church members be wise as they seek truth.

Seek out and share only credible, reliable and factual sources of information. Avoid sources that are speculative or founded on rumor.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/12/18/22187384/policies-on-racism-vaping-medical-marijuana-highlight-update-to-church-handbook-mormon

They are causing real harm and it is metastasizing at a rapid rate in America.  If you think it would be more wise to take a less confrontational approach, I am fine with that and agree that is probably more helpful, but I think it is time that we stop making excuses for them.  No more enabling.  It is time that we all oppose them and not ally up with them for political purposes. They are adversarial to the American cause of public health and vaccination, regardless of what party you belong to. 

Edited by pogi
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6 hours ago, Calm said:

Pogi has been right in the middle of it since the beginning…I highly doubt he would be the least surprised, especially as even if he somehow missed it at work we have been talking about minority vaccine hesitancy on this board from before we got the vaccine iirc.  I would hope no one reading these threads would be the least surprised by vaccine hesitation among minorities and their lack of trust for the government/medical mix. 

Plus, The number of those actually hesitant among black populations is on par with the general public. this article talks about that, with numbers before a noted hike in vaccinations among black Americans that happened with the start of delta (the last batch of data has them as a higher percentage getting vaxxed compared to their overall population size. 
 

A lot of the lag is also tied to access issues and economic limitations. (Along with some of the usual reason found in the gen pop  see here 

 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited by BlueDreams
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6 minutes ago, pogi said:

There have been trust issues with the black community and medicine dating back to the infamous Tuskegee syphilis study, and before that back to slavery with unethical experiments and sterilization of women.  Lets not pretend that the mistrust in this population has anything to do to the CDC "stepping on rakes" during the pandemic.  On the contrary, concerted public health efforts have made historic leaps and bounds with this population during the pandemic in improving trust and increasing vaccination rates to historic highs, even while the alt-right quacks have made leaps and bounds in increasing mistrust in the mainstream right during the same time period.

You think the CDC caving to political pressure in their policy making and COVID guidelines helps or hinders those efforts?  Do you think it helps in your fight against misinformation?

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Pretending like these "crackpot conspiracies" (your words) are worthy of consideration is...I don't have words.  We don't need to give credence or light to these conspiracy theories to hold the medical establishment accountable for errors and mistakes.  You say that you "understand" the mistrust that these people display.  But you don't seem to understand that there is a huge chasm between the mistakes that you bring up here (some of which have been debunked) and the conspiracy theories being populated by these people.  You are not the same as them.  You are vaccinated and support vaccines.  You are the enemy.  Lets not cushion their harmful behavior and lies with empathy.  It is causing real harm and such empathy only makes it more popular and acceptable among moderates to delve into alt-extremism.  It is becoming mainstream, and that will only hurt us all. 

You frame this mistrust as result of missteps during the pandemic, but mistrust among these factions of people go back WAY before the pandemic, and absolutely is not limited to the alt-right.   Ironically, the two groups that cause more harm to vaccination efforts than probably anybody else are on complete opposites of the political spectrum - the alt-right and alt-med populations.  We have crazy right-wingers on one hand, and the other hand is crazy left-winger hippie naturalists with a strong distrust in corporate medicine and money influenced machines.   As different as they are ideologically, they are like 2 peas in a pod and have been the way they are long before the pandemic ever began.  The biggest thing that changed during the pandemic to make this mistrust of public health more mainstream is that the alt-right ideology and conspiracies were normalized and befriended by the president, and the party to a considerable degree followed in suit.   What was once fringe is now mainstream.  I will not suggest that this is all Trumps Fault.  It would be too easy too blame all of our problems on Trump.  I don't think he broke America.  I think America was already broken to large degree, and that's why Trump was elected.  This mistrust has long existed in America, and Trump successfully tapped into it, made it mainstream, and tried to use it to his political advantage.  That is now backfiring.  Trip up the medical/public health establishment, try to control their narrative, and try to make them look like the incompetent ones to place the blame on everyone but yourself for the missteps during the pandemic, and do this by tapping into the pre-existing alt-right rage and mistrust to ramp up the attacks on public health officials.  Seems like a good political play.  But unfortunately for Trump, he has unleashed a beast that he thought he could tame.  He thought their loyalty to him was stronger than their bat crazy ideologies and conspiracy theories.  He was dead wrong.  While Trump want to use public health officials as a scapegoat for his mishandling of the pandemic, Trump also wants political credit for the vaccines and their fast role-out.  Unfortunately for him, he can't have both.  He can't get political credit from his base for the thing they mistrust the most.  He is being booed for recommending that they get vaccinated.  I had to chuckle.  He has no idea what he has unleashed. 

Don't consider my resistance to the deluge of misinformation leading to mistrust in public health officials and the medical establishment in general as a blindness to their mistakes.  Some criticisms are based in reality and deserve attention.  When the alt-right and alt-med groups discuss these problems however, the facts are often exaggerated beyond recognition, and a lot of it is not based in reality at all.  It is good to try and understand them.  It is not good to make excuses for them and enable their ideologies with empathy.  It has gotten so bad that the Church has created a whole section in the handbook on defending ourselves against it

You think the CDC caving to political pressure in their policy making and COVID guidance helps or hinders those efforts?

Do you think labeling people “enemies” helps or hinders your efforts?

Have I brought up “mistakes” or “conspiracy theories” Pogi?  You seem to not be able to decide which.  I conceded the teachers union, the others…not so much.  If they’re mistakes, and evidence of political pressure of which I expect science and medicine to weather, then I understand the hesitancy.  How can you not? 
 

13 minutes ago, pogi said:
Quote

They are causing real harm and it is metastasizing at a rapid rate in America.  If you think it would be more wise to take a less confrontational approach, I am fine with that and agree that is probably more helpful, but I think it is time that we stop making excuses for them.  No more enabling.  They are not our political allies, they are adversarial to the American cause of vaccination, regardless of what party you belong to. 

“Political allies”?  Do you think this helps or hinders your efforts? 

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1 hour ago, SteveO said:

You think the CDC caving to political pressure in their policy making and COVID guidelines helps or hinders those efforts?  Do you think it helps in your fight against misinformation?

You think the CDC caving to political pressure in their policy making and COVID guidance helps or hinders those efforts?

Do you think labeling people “enemies” helps or hinders your efforts?

Have I brought up “mistakes” or “conspiracy theories” Pogi?  You seem to not be able to decide which.  I conceded the teachers union, the others…not so much.  If they’re mistakes, and evidence of political pressure of which I expect science and medicine to weather, then I understand the hesitancy.  How can you not? 
 

“Political allies”?  Do you think this helps or hinders your efforts? 

I have conceded that mistakes were made.  I will repeat:

Quote

Don't consider my resistance to the deluge of misinformation leading to mistrust in public health officials and the medical establishment in general as a blindness to their mistakes.  Some criticisms are based in reality and deserve attention.  When the alt-right and alt-med groups discuss these problems however, the facts are often exaggerated beyond recognition, and a lot of it is not based in reality at all.  It is good to try and understand them.  It is not good to make excuses for them and enable their ideologies with empathy. 

I never called anyone an "enemy".  I said that they consider you an enemy for supporting vaccines.  I do oppose them though.  So should you.

You seem to think that vaccine hesitancy is all about mistrust in government due to missteps in the pandemic.  I simply don't even see that a close contender for top reasons for vaccine hesitancy.  First, because this mistrust has roots much deeper than the pandemic and second, who are you really going to convince that republicans (statistically more hesitant) are hesitant because the CDC was following orders from Pence to soften guidelines for meat-packing plants?  Get real!      I don't think you truly do understand vaccine hesitancy.  Mistrust in the government only represents a fraction of vaccine hesitancy - and they tend to be the conspiracy theorists and alt-righters that you seem to be defending in their mistrust.  I don't believe that the reasons you mention above were primary concerns about vaccines.   What you listed has nothing to do with the vaccine, the science behind it, or those who produced and manufactured it - Big Pharm!  Those who chose not to get vaccinated in this government mistrust group almost exclusively believe in a conspiracy and/or false information about the vaccine, and are not too worried about the soft stance with meat packing plants.  Minority groups may fit into this group as well, due to past wrongs and not due to missteps during the pandemic. 

Another group is hesitant due to mistrust of big-pharma like Pfizer and Moderna (the alt-med group).  The rest (and perhaps largest group) mostly fit into one of two groups, and are not hesitant for any reasons related to mistrust, but it has everything to do with the vaccine being novel technology where long-term side effects are unknown.   The other hesitant group usually fits into a low-risk category and simply do not see the disease as a significant enough risk to justify vaccination.  They are the invincible ones who are filling the hospitals as we speak.  

 

 

Edited by pogi
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44 minutes ago, pogi said:

You seem to think that vaccine hesitancy is all about mistrust in government due to missteps in the pandemic.  I simply don't even see that a close contender for top reasons for vaccine hesitancy.  First, because this mistrust has roots much deeper than the pandemic and second, who are you really going to convince that republicans (statistically more hesitant) are hesitant because the CDC was following orders from Pence to soften guidelines for meat-packing plants?  Get real!      I don't think you truly do understand vaccine hesitancy.  Mistrust in the government only represents a fraction of vaccine hesitancy - and they tend to be the conspiracy theorists and alt-righters that you seem to be defending in their mistrust.  I don't believe that the reasons you mention above were primary concerns about vaccines.   What you listed has nothing to do with the vaccine, the science behind it, or those who produced and manufactured it - Big Pharm!  Those who chose not to get vaccinated in this government mistrust group almost exclusively believe in a conspiracy and/or false information about the vaccine, and are not too worried about the soft stance with meat packing plants.  Minority groups may fit into this group as well, due to past wrongs and not due to missteps during the pandemic. 

Well I’m glad we’ve moved from “conspiracy theories” to “yeah but Trump” to “yeah but they aren’t the primary reasons”.  
 

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

but it has everything to do with the vaccine being novel technology where long-term side effects are unknown. 

You think the CDC caving to political pressure in their policy making and COVID guidance reinforces or deters those concerns?

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The other hesitant group usually fits into a low-risk category and simply do not see the disease as a significant enough risk to justify vaccination. 

Man, if only there was a trustworthy source to convince them otherwise…where oh where could they get that information?

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2 hours ago, SteveO said:

Well I’m glad we’ve moved from “conspiracy theories” to “yeah but Trump” to “yeah but they aren’t the primary reasons”. 

I was responding to this originally:

Quote

For the near future at least, science, experts, and the medical community have irreparably damaged their credibility.

Apparently all of science, experts, and the medical community are complicit in...whatever, and are irreparably damaged  :rolleyes:   Sounds like a grand conspiracy if I have ever heard one!   I needed to address it.  I want to know why you defend this astronomically outsized mistrust with understanding and seeming empathy.  It sounds like complete rubbish to me based in misinformation and conspiracy.   The entire medical community?  Serious?  Science is out the window and you claim to understand that based on the few examples you listed above?  I can't grasp where you are coming from or why.  It just appears that you identify with their mistrust in government on some level, but come on?  

Now, I am trying to show you that there is actually a large set of reasons as to why people are vaccine hesitant and the reasons you listed (a few missteps during the pandemic by the CDC) have little to nothing to do with 95% of it, so I don't think you really do "understand" what you claim to have a firm grasp on. 

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

You think the CDC caving to political pressure in their policy making and COVID guidance reinforces or deters those concerns?

For me personally and those I associate with, it had nothing to do with it.  Yes, I was vaccine hesitant in the beginning for those reasons.  It is documented in these forums.  But, lets just stick it to the CDC anyway.  

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

Man, if only there was a trustworthy source to convince them otherwise…where oh where could they get that information?

You don't seem to understand that it has nothing to do with "trust" with these people.  It is all about personal risk tolerance with their relatively low level of risk, but lets make it all about mistrust and missteps by public health officials anyway.  I can't just pretend that this group discredits and mistrusts the entire medical community, science, and all "experts", and that's why they are not getting vaccinated.   

Edited by pogi
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32 minutes ago, pogi said:

Apparently all of science, experts, and the medical community are complicit in...whatever, and are irreparably damaged  :rolleyes:   Sounds like a grand conspiracy if I have ever heard one!   I needed to address it.

This conversation started with you saying that the CDC and medical community have had an unassailable reputation and credibility during COVID.  They don’t.  You’ve admitted as much.  It does not help their credibility.  You want to argue whether it does or not?  Have at it.  But I’m not arguing percentages with you.  
 

Sounds like you have a good number of perfectly valid reasons for why people are hesitant.  I hope you have understanding for their concerns and continue to work towards getting them vaccinated

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

star-trek-bashir.gif

On 9/13/2021 at 4:21 PM, pogi said:

Those who claim that the medical community has lost its credibility have themselves lost their credibility with most people in the world for their claims.   It gets pretty sad when you actually flesh this stuff out with them and look at their sources and claims.   They have little to nothing to stand on in discrediting the "medical community".   It is almost all politically based. 

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1 hour ago, SteveO said:

This conversation started with you saying that the CDC and medical community have had an unassailable reputation and credibility during COVID.  They don’t.  

A quick review will show you this isn't true.  I was pointing out that the prophets are asking us to trust the medical community whose reputation you were suggesting is irreparably damaged. 

I never once claimed or insinuated that their handling of the pandemic was unassailable.  I was refuting the idea that their handling of the pandemic deserved the extreme and exaggerated view that  "science, experts, and the medical community" have somehow irreparably damaged their credibility.  If anyone espouses that view, then they already had a deep seeded mistrust in government and have been highly influenced by and fed politically biased misinformation and conspiratorial thinking - it has more to do with that than what the CDC actually said/did during the pandemic.  That kind of rhetoric simply is harmful for our country and for public health and we should not empathize with those views.

I know some people are mad about the perceived inconsistent messaging surrounding the protests.  That has nothing to do with vaccine science and research performed by Pfizer and Moderna.  That had nothing to do with the creation and manufacturing of the vaccine.

I know some people are mad that the CDC caved to political pressure from the Trump administration with the meat factories.  Ironically, it is only right-wingers who seem to take the biggest offense at this (just throw everything and see what sticks kind of thinking), but that has nothing to do with vaccines, science in general, and the medical community as a whole.

I know some people are mad about the lie (singular actor), miscommunication/poor communication around masks, but that doesn't deserve the exaggerated backlash and outlandish dismissal of science and the medical community in general. 

Edited by pogi
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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

A quick review will show you this isn't true.  I was pointing out that the prophets are asking us to trust the medical community whose reputation you were suggesting is irreparably damaged. 

I never once claimed or insinuated that their handling of the pandemic was unassailable.  I was refuting the idea that their handling of the pandemic deserved the extreme and exaggerated view that  "science, experts, and the medical community" have somehow irreparably damaged their credibility.  If anyone espouses that view, then they already had a deep seeded mistrust in government and have been highly influenced by and fed politically biased misinformation and conspiratorial thinking - it has more to do with that than what the CDC actually said/did during the pandemic.  That kind of rhetoric simply is harmful for our country and for public health. 

I know some people are mad about the protests.  That has nothing to do with vaccine science and research performed by Pfizer and Moderna.  That had nothing to do with the creation and manufacturing of the vaccine.

I know some people are mad that the CDC caved to political pressure from the Trump administration with the meat factories.  Ironically, it is only right-wingers who seem to take the biggest offense at this (just throw everything and see what sticks kind of thinking), but that has nothing to do with vaccines, science in general, and the medical community as a whole.

I know some people are mad about the lie (singular actor), miscommunication/poor communication around masks, but that doesn't deserve the exaggerated backlash and outlandish dismissal of science and the medical community in general. 

Oh good, well, I agree with all of this.  Have a nice night. 

 

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40 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Something that no one is denying.

Quote

The political divide that has been a hallmark of the coronavirus pandemic was evident in the results of this poll — 27% of Republicans greatly trust CDC, compared to 76% of Democrats.

I wonder how much of this mistrust stems from the embellishment and right-wing propaganda machine that skews much of the information about what the CDC did or said that I have seen posted here with rapid fire from smac and others.  There are huge radio personalities that have endlessly attacked public health and spewed misinformation about vaccines, etc.   It has been a relentless attack from the beginning.  Most of what I see is absolute garbage and misinformation.  Will you deny that this propaganda has an effect on public perceptions?   Literally everything coming from the CDC is seen with skepticism based in speculation with conspiratorial undertones.  So much untruth out there.   It is so bad that the church has had to warn against conspiracy theories in the handbook during the pandemic.  Yes, the CDC and others made some mistakes, but the chasm of mistrust is not all deserved.   Not even close.  The CDC can't effectively defend itself against the deep pockets of right wing media who is dispensing this garbage in mass quantities. It doesn't budget for that kind of attack.  If equal effort/money was invested in defending the CDC's reputation with equal airtime, I don't think you would see the same level of distrust.  It is all too one sided. That has an effect on perception.   

In other words, I think the mistrust is more a product of highly successful right-wing media/propaganda campaigns against public health more than it is something that is deserved due to what public health experts have actually said or done.  It appears that it is due time that we invest more in media campaigns for public health to combat the misinformation and improve image and trust.  That would be good for America.  That would be good for public health.  I am sure the right would be thrilled about that use of public moneys. 

Edited by pogi
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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Something that no one is denying.

I wonder how much of this mistrust stems from the embellishment and right-wing propaganda machine that skews much of the information about what the CDC did or said that I have seen posted here with rapid fire from smac and others.  There are huge radio personalities that have endlessly attacked public health and spewed misinformation about vaccines, etc.   It has been a relentless attack from the beginning.  Most of what I see is absolute garbage and misinformation.  Will you deny that this propaganda has an effect on public perceptions?   Literally everything coming from the CDC is seen with skepticism based in speculation with conspiratorial undertones.  So much untruth out there.   It is so bad that the church has had to warn against conspiracy theories in the handbook during the pandemic.  Yes, the CDC and others made some mistakes, but the chasm of mistrust is not all deserved.   Not even close.  The CDC can't effectively defend itself against the deep pockets of right wing media who is dispensing this garbage in mass quantities.  If equal effort/money was invested in defending the CDC's reputation with equal airtime, I don't think you would see the same level of distrust.  It is all too one sided. That has an effect on perception.   

In other words, I think the mistrust is more a product of highly successful right-wing media/propaganda campaigns against public health more than it is something that is deserved due to what public health experts have actually said or done.  

What do you think would’ve happened if Trump had won re election?  I hate the hypotheticals, but I remember this from Harris last October:

“If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us we should take it, I’ll be the first in line to take it, absolutely," Harris said. "But if Donald Trump tells us we should take it, I’m not taking it," she said.

I bet the polling would be different if we still had 45.

My point is, there will always be the politics inserted where they shouldn’t.  It’s the way the world operates.  No escaping it.  This isn’t some modern day anomaly either.  Science has always been under assault from outside forces pushing an agenda.  
 

And I get the garbage being pushed.  I mean, last night Tucker Carlson put out a tweet from some rap Queen about how the vaccines made her friend’s testicles swell up.  It’s trash.  And there’s tons of it.

So I get that frustration.  And I’ll amend my previous comments that I think journalists and politicians have done a massive disservice to the science and medical community.  I think they all get lumped into a singular group.
 

But all the more reason for a very small margin of error.  All the more necessary, I think, for doctors to stay off YouTube, stay off the news networks, stay off media and putting out signed letters, stay away from protests wearing scrubs, etc.  That needs to get tamped down and safeguarded.  In the army, we used the phrase “quiet professionals”.  Maybe that needs to be a motto introduced to the healthcare industry.  

Anyways, I really do have to be done.  My wife is telling at me and my 2 year old son is fighting for my attention.
 

 

 

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