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Status of church

rongo

By rongo
in General Discussions

Status of church normalization  

61 members have voted

  1. 1. To what extent is your Sunday meeting schedule "back to normal?"

    • All meetings are still virtual only
      5
    • Sacrament meeting is in person, but 2nd hour is virtual only
      19
    • Both hours are offered in-person
      28
    • Hybrid: In-person sacrament meeting alternates between segments of the ward
      9

  2. 2. What is the level of "mitigation protocols" enforcement in your church meetings? (masks,

    • Stringently enforced/insisted upon
      30
    • Whatever people want to do, in practice
      31

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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

it makes sense to me a little. Gay marriage doesn’t effect members equally or universally. Most of us will never go to a gay wedding…heck, most people do not have a gay direct relative they’re close to. So a lot of the debate and discussion was hypothetical, as in it didn’t have direct real world consequences for most members. It also already touched on political differences with little cross over (at first). And there were no physical markers one could point to, to indicate one’s position. It’s also easier to maintain mixed views with gay marriage, even if those who debate it are generally extremely polarized (similar to abortion) 

Do I have the right to refuse to bake a cake for an unvaccinated person’s funeral?

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SteveO Mentor

SteveO

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pogi said:

Those who claim that the medical community has lost its credibility have themselves lost their credibility with most people in the world for their claims.   It gets pretty sad when you actually flesh this stuff out with them and look at their sources and claims.   They have little to nothing to stand on in discrediting the "medical community".   It is almost all politically based. 

Sure, messaging could have been much better, mistakes were made by some individuals, but overall the medical community has been pretty consistent with the science (which evolves) throughout all of this.  It is so terribly sad to me that the medical community who are the heroes of the pandemic are getting so slammed.  They made the life-saving vaccine possible in miraculous time.  The front-line workers are STILL bombarded day-in and day-out with the very people trying to discredit them. 

  https://www.ksl.com/article/50238400/front-line-fatigue-icu-nurses-taking-brutal-blows-to-their-mental-health

Were we deliberately lied to at the beginning concerning the necessity of masks by the experts?  The Surgeon General specifically, who you quoted?  Was information purposefully withheld that prevented people from making the best decisions for their own health?

Was the CDC wrong concerning the aerosol status of transmissions?  Was their guidance concerning the meat packing industry politically influenced? Were they directly influenced in their policy making by teachers unions?

Did not public health officials push for vaccine distribution not based on health risk, but on racial factors? 
 

Were those who said that the possibility of COVID 19 coming from a lab more likely than not labeled as tin hat wearing conspiracy theorists?  
 

Did Joe Rogan take horse deworming medicine?  Or did he take a medicine that was prescribed to him by a doctor, had been used to treat yellow fever and malaria for decades and has been recommended by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government for use against COVID?  (That’s  more of an example of journalism malpractice)

Is the current vaccine mandate exemption for USPS workers…I dunno, somewhat suspect and lacking in scientific reasoning to justify it?
 

You can give me the reasons and excuses behind why things were done the way they were done.  But that isn’t the point.  What I said, and continue to say, is I understand why people are apprehensive about not trusting these “experts” anymore when it comes to their health.  Mistakes have consequences.  Whether they were honest or blatant nonsense made by a few prominent members of the community.  You looking down your nose at the people’s hesitancy and not acknowledging those concerns isn’t going to convince them.  And that’s the whole point of the current endeavor.  Get people vaccinated, not trying to convince people like me why they’re stupid and unreasonable.

Edit to add:  I also blame Trump.  I blame a lot of Republican lawmakers  and governors.  For me, there’s plenty of blame to go around.  But I expect that from politicians.  Where we should have gotten neutrality from, and desperately needed, was from the science, the medical community, and experts.  And that didn’t happen.  

 

Edited by SteveO
-1
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SteveO Mentor

SteveO

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm not sure what fault you assume I'm assigning here. What are you picturing when you're saying this?

 

With luv,

BD

I was referring more to this: 

 

7 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Also for one side especially, there is more a sense of physical threat and/or anxiety over safety around being near those who differ on this topic. 

I took it that you were saying the “other side” was being unreasonable or inconsiderate because they don’t share the same feelings of physical threat and anxiety.  
 

While some of them are jerks, I don’t think most of them are doing it to intentionally antagonize or frustrate those who think differently.  For the reasons I pointed out, I understand, although don’t agree with, their decision not to get vaccinated and not wear a mask.

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Bob Crockett Grand Master

Bob Crockett

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pogi said:

Such ignorance and ingratitude.

Public health measures have improved the quality of life in America in immeasurable ways, including water quality control, vaccinations, food safety/inspections, safe and reliable drugs, motor vehicle safety, workplace safety, control of infectious diseases, healthier mothers and babies, tobacco/drug cessation efforts, general health studies/recommendations which have reduced deaths from coronary heart disease/stroke, early detection, prevention, and treatment of cancer.  They also assess the effectiveness of medical interventions and guide best practice in American medicine today.   Nincompoops! 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK218220/

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056796.htm

It never seems to be that difficult. 

Hopefully I'm not all that ignorant.  I practice law representing big medical institutions, whose names you would instantly recognize.  Some of the largest hospitals and hospital chains in the U.S.  I don't do malpractice work but represent them in administrative relations with the government.  I believe that the private health care industry could do all you cite and more.  Much more.  We should leave it to trained doctors to prescribe treatments and set costs.  If the government wants socialized medicine, as it does, it should simply issue vouchers.

Can you imagine the stupidity of the Veterans' Administration? A huge public health care program. The government builds hospitals for the vets and hires staff for the hospitals.  A friend of mine, a Navy Vet, waited almost a year for a hip replacement and over a year for dentures.  When I was a bishop I would go to the local vet hospital in Westwood, California, a huge complex.  I was appalled at conditions.  Far worse than a regular hospital. 

What is the solution?  One solution is to simply fold the veterans into Medicare, even though that too is an appalling program.     

Socialized medicine in the U.S. is a nightmare.  Get the gorillas of the CDC out of the treatment of patients.

Edited by Bob Crockett
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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Were we deliberately lied to at the beginning concerning the necessity of masks by the experts?  The Surgeon General specifically, who you quoted?  Was information purposefully withheld that prevented people from making the best decisions for their own health?

Was the CDC wrong concerning the aerosol status of transmissions?  Was their guidance concerning the meat packing industry politically influenced? Were they directly influenced in their policy making by teachers unions?

Did not public health officials push for vaccine distribution not based on health risk, but on racial factors? 
 

Were those who said that the possibility of COVID 19 coming from a lab more likely than not labeled as tin hat wearing conspiracy theorists?  
 

Did Joe Rogan take horse deworming medicine?  Or did he take a medicine that was prescribed to him by a doctor, had been used to treat yellow fever and malaria for decades and has been recommended by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government for use against COVID?  (That’s  more of an example of journalism malpractice)

Is the current vaccine mandate exemption for USPS workers…I dunno, somewhat suspect and lacking in scientific reasoning to justify it?
 

 

Is it possible that ancient aliens helped build the pyramids? That the Illuminati was using the VHS vs. Betamax branding battle to brainwash us all?

Just asking questions here.

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SteveO Mentor

SteveO

Posted
Posted
Just now, The Nehor said:

Is it possible that ancient aliens helped build the pyramids? That the Illuminati was using the VHS vs. Betamax branding battle to brainwash us all?

Just asking questions here.

And it’s a mystery why COVID has been politicized.  These aren’t conspiracy theories.

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pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Were we deliberately lied to at the beginning concerning the necessity of masks by the experts?  The Surgeon General specifically, who you quoted?  Was information purposefully withheld that prevented people from making the best decisions for their own health?

No, we were not lied to by "mask experts" (I don't think he was a mask "expert" though - whatever that is).  There is no plurality (mask experts) in the Surgeon generals tweet.   Yes, the Surgeon General was wrong to say that masks don't work.  He was right that they were not a necessity at the time for the general public (there were only about 5 cases in the entire US), he was right to preserve them for health care providers.   This was a big mistake on his part, but the Surgeon General does not represent all of "science" and "the medical community", that you have defamed. 

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Was the CDC wrong concerning the aerosol status of transmissions?  Was their guidance concerning the meat packing industry politically influenced? Were they directly influenced in their policy making by teachers unions?

 The CDC was not "wrong" about aerosols.  The CDC didn't know how it was spread and said it was searching to find out.  I don't think they ever claimed that it definitely wasn't transmitted by aerosols.  We can thank them for what we know about the virus now - but lets not give them too much credit, right?

Meat packing industry politically influenced?  How so?  I didn't know that the medical community and the left doesn't like meat.

I haven't read about the teachers unions, I gave up reading smacs post after a few lines (it really triggered me).   Can you prove that their policy is not based on best public health practice to reduce transmission in schools, which happens to follow what teachers unions want?  Either way, what is wrong with being influenced by teachers unions if they make good public health points about transmission in schools?

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Did not public health officials push for vaccine distribution not based on health risk, but on racial factors? 

  I don't know what you are talking about, racial demographics are often a variable in health risks.  Polynesians, blacks, and Latinos, are disproportionately affected by the virus. 

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Were those who said that the possibility of COVID 19 coming from a lab more likely than not labeled as tin hat wearing conspiracy theorists?  

For stating such as a matter of fact while lacking any strong evidence, they deserved it.  

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Did Joe Rogan take horse deworming medicine?  Or did he take a medicine that was prescribed to him by a doctor, had been used to treat yellow fever and malaria for decades and has been recommended by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government for use against COVID?  (That’s  more of an example of journalism malpractice)

Yes, lets just tack on "journalism malpractice" to all the reasons we should distrust the medical field.  Makes sense!  What does this have to do with cautioning against the use outside of research practices for the Novel Covid virus?  In case you didn't know, malaria (a parasite) and yellow fever (a flavivirus) are not Covid (a coronavirus).    Ivermectin is still being studied for Covid. 

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Is the current vaccine mandate exemption for USPS workers…I dunno, somewhat suspect and lacking in scientific reasoning to justify it?

Yes, lets tack on the president's executive order to all the reasons we should distrust "science" and the "medical field".  Makes sense!    What does this have to do with science and the medical community exactly?

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

You can give me the reasons and excuses behind why things were done the way they were done.  But that isn’t the point.  What I said, and continue to say, is I understand why people are apprehensive about not trusting these “experts” anymore when it comes to their health.  Mistakes have consequences.  Whether they were honest or blatant nonsense made by a few prominent members of the community.  You looking down your nose at the people’s hesitancy and not acknowledging those concerns isn’t going to convince them.  And that’s the whole point of the current endeavor.  Get people vaccinated, not trying to convince people like me why they’re stupid and unreasonable.

So, you understand that people are misattributing political and media mistakes to the medical field and science.  Good! 

The only true mistake I have seen in all of your grasping at straws is the Attorney General quote.  We can pin that on one man.  Not the entire community of science and medicine. 

  

Edited by pogi
1
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Bob Crockett Grand Master

Bob Crockett

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No more so than privatized medicine in the U.S. is.

Can I know how much this procedure will cost? Will my insurance cover this? So my option is to find a way to pay $200k a year for treatment or die?

There is no real private medicine. 

What docs and hospitals charge depends on a fee schedule regulated by the DofH. 

Insurance is now dependant upon the ACA. 

The government even controls the number of doctors educated and new hospital construction.  

 

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pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I believe that the private health care industry could do all you cite and more.  Much more. 

How is the private health care industry going to regulate drug safety, food safety, water safety, car safety, etc.?   

No way in hell would this have taken off in America without government health officials demanding it and regulating industry.  Why did it take public health to combat tobacco?  Where was the private sector on this issue?  Too slow.  No money.

The private sector in medicine is all about treatment.  That is where the money is!  The sicker America is, the richer they get.  Follow the money.  There is little to no money in preventative measures such as tobacco cessation efforts on a national scale.  Our health department relies on tax dollars to do what we do.  There is literally no money in it. 

Edited by pogi
2
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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

There is no real private medicine. 

What docs and hospitals charge depends on a fee schedule regulated by the DofH. 

Insurance is now dependant upon the ACA. 

The government even controls the number of doctors educated and new hospital construction.  

Socialized medicine looks pretty good to many Americans who know that they are one medical crisis away from bankruptcy.

Medical insurance was a stupid idea created post-WW2 to try to reel in workers in the post-war boom economy. It has since become mandatory to have because prices rose to match it. The United States gets incredibly bad outcomes for how much is spent on health care. The free hand of the market wouldn’t fix the problem either. When it is ‘pay or die’ the consumer doesn’t have power to choose to purchase what they want.

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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, pogi said:

How is the private health care industry going to regulate drug safety, food safety, water safety, car safety, etc.?   

No way in hell would this have taken off in America without government health officials demanding it and regulating industry.  Why did it take public health to combat tobacco?  Where was the private sector on this.  Too slow.  No money.

The private sector in medicine is all about treatment.  That is where the money is!  There is little to no money in prevention. 

Also this. We have been so badly spoiled by expecting reasonable regulated standards on many things that people assume they are superfluous and would continue without the regulations. Same reason that people assume their good health will continue without vaccinations because vaccines have gotten rid of or controlled the diseases that made vaccines seem like a miracle.

2
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SteveO Mentor

SteveO

Posted
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, we were not lied to by "mask experts" (I don't think he was a mask "expert" though - whatever that is).  There is no plurality of experts in the Surgeon generals tweet.   Yes, the Surgeon General was wrong to say that masks don't work.  He was right that they were not a necessity at the time for the general public (there were only about 5 cases in the entire US), he was right to preserve them for health care providers.   This was a big mistake on his part, but the Surgeon General does not represent all of "science" and "the medical community", that you have defamed. 

I’m glad you agree he was wrong

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

The CDC was not "wrong" about aerosols.  The CDC didn't know how it was spread and said it was searching to find out.  I don't think they ever claimed that it definitely wasn't transmitted by aerosols.  We can thank them for what we know about the virus now - but lets not give them too much credit, right?

They said it was spread by aerosols, and then backtracked a few days later.  I never said it was  nefarious, but it was a mistake.

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Meat packing industry politically influenced?  How so?  I didn't know that the medical community and the left doesn't like meat.

Dr Robert Redfield, head of the CDC, instructed his staff to change a series of safety recommendations for meat packing to suggestions, adding dozens of qualifiers such as “if feasible” and “not required”.  He told orderlies that the edits came directly from Vice President Mike Pence’s chief of staff.

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't haven't read about the teachers unions, I gave up reading smacs post after a few lines.   Can you prove that their policy is not based on best public health practice to reduce transmission in schools, which happens to follow what teachers unions want?  Either way, what is wrong with being influenced by teachers unions if they make good public health points about transmission in schools?

A Freedom of Information Act request obtained AFT emails to the CDC.  “Thank you again for Friday’s rich discussion about forthcoming CDC guidance and for your openness to the suggestions made by our president, Randi Weingarten, and the AFT,” AFT Senior Director for Health Issues Kelly Trautner wrote in one of the emails.

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

  I don't know what you are talking about, racial demographics are often a variable in health risks.  Polynesians, blacks, and Latinos, are disproportionately affected by the virus. 

“Older populations are whiter,” public health “expert” Dr. Harald Schmidt, of the University of Pennsylvania, told The New York Times in early December. “Society is structured in a way that enables them to live longer. Instead of giving additional health benefits to those who already had more of them, we can start to level the playing field a bit.”  
 

If that makes sense to you, fine, but understand it’s a WTF to people who are vaccine hesitant.

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

For stating such as a matter of fact while lacking any strong evidence, they deserved it. 

How about now?  
 

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, lets just tack on "journalism malpractice" to all the reasons we should distrust the medical field.  Makes sense!  What does this have to do with cautioning against the use outside of research practices for the Novel Covid virus?  In case you didn't know, malaria (a parasite) and yellow fever (a flavivirus) are not Covid (a coronavirus).    Ivermectin is still being studied for Covid. 

I’m glad you agree it’s journalistic malpractice as I initially pointed out.  It’s not like Journalists are responsible for informing the public or anything.

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, lets tack on the president's executive order to all the reasons we should distrust "science" and the "medical field".  Makes sense!    What does this have to do with science and the medical community exactly?

Is the executive order based on science or nah?

If we can ignore science based on the directives of political forces, what good is the science? 

Edited by SteveO
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pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Dr Robert Redfield, head of the CDC, instructed his staff to change a series of safety recommendations for meat packing to suggestions, adding dozens of qualifiers such as “if feasible” and “not required”.  He told orderlies that the edits came directly from Vice President Mike Pence’s chief of staff.

Since you are bringing in Mike Pence -  The CDC was undermined by the Trump administration on every level.  This attack on the medical field is just a political scape-goat move.  The true corrupters and villains in this are the politicians playing with public health.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/former-cdc-heads-trump-undermining-covid-19-response

https://www.science.org/news/2020/10/inside-story-how-trumps-covid-19-coordinator-undermined-cdc

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html

https://www.axios.com/cdc-trump-health-guidelines-undermining-3d3fd22c-d067-4a4e-90c6-6f6d46763af9.html

30 minutes ago, SteveO said:

“Thank you again for Friday’s rich discussion about forthcoming CDC guidance and for your openness to the suggestions made by our president, Randi Weingarten, and the AFT,”

Face palm!  Serious???   Where's the beef?

30 minutes ago, SteveO said:

If that makes sense to you, fine, but understand it’s a WTF to people who are vaccine hesitant.

Instead of enabling and emboldening them with this nonsense and with gentle pats on the back, why don't you educate them how wrong this is?

30 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Is the executive order based on science or nah?

Do you have a good conspiracy for me to consider or something?

30 minutes ago, SteveO said:

If we can ignore science based on the directives of political forces, what good is the science? 

If I knew of a political fix, I would offer it.  Any suggestions?

Edited by pogi
1
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Bob Crockett Grand Master

Bob Crockett

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, pogi said:

How is the private health care industry going to regulate drug safety, food safety, water safety, car safety, etc.?   

No way in hell would this have taken off in America without government health officials demanding it and regulating industry.  Why did it take public health to combat tobacco?  Where was the private sector on this issue?  Too slow.  No money.

The private sector in medicine is all about treatment.  That is where the money is!  The sicker America is, the richer they get.  Follow the money.  There is little to no money in preventative measures such as tobacco cessation efforts on a national scale.  Our health department relies on tax dollars to do what we do.  There is literally no money in it. 

Lots of arm waving without any support.  You're just a socialist; decry the wealth docs obtain.  "The richer they get."  

The reality is that the gov't regulates the number of medical schools and docs in the united states.   If the gov't withdrew that regulation, we'd have more competition amongst docs.  

And Medicare sets the costs for procedures, which all, or almost all, health care providers follow.

Tobacco is a particular bad example of government socialization.  We see all such foolish government advertising with public money.  Tobacco, alcohol, where to dig, railroad crossings, etc. and etc. Meanwhile, because it isn't deemed socially acceptable, we don't see ads against marijuana or STDs. 

The morons who work in state and federal public health do it for the government paycheck.  They do not act in our best interests.    

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SteveO Mentor

SteveO

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, pogi said:

So lets blame the Trump administration for the unrelenting political pressures on the CDC to do things they wouldn't normally do.   The CDC was undermined by the Trump administration on every level.  This attack on the medical field is just a political scape-goat move.  The true corrupters and villains in this are the politicians playing with public health.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/former-cdc-heads-trump-undermining-covid-19-response

https://www.science.org/news/2020/10/inside-story-how-trumps-covid-19-coordinator-undermined-cdc

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/politics/trump-cdc-coronavirus.html

https://www.axios.com/cdc-trump-health-guidelines-undermining-3d3fd22c-d067-4a4e-90c6-6f6d46763af9.html

I’m glad you see that the CDC was undermined by political forces.  We’re on the same page.

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Face palm!  Serious???   Where's the beef?

Would you be comfortable with the CDC considering suggestions from President Nelson about having in person Church meetings?  How about “non essential” workplaces offering their suggestions for a return to work?

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Instead of enabling and emboldening them with this nonsense and with gentle pats on the back, why don't you educate them how wrong this is?

Well I think it’s a little WTF myself.  I don’t know how otherwise intelligent people read that statement and nod along.  But to each their own.  I said I was offering reasons for why people are vaccine hesitant.

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you have a good conspiracy for me to consider or something?

Not really, is the vaccine mandate based on science or federal worker unions?  Based on the teachers union influencing the CDC, I’d say the latter.

 

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

If I knew of a political fix, I would offer it.  Any suggestions?

Base decisions off the science, not political influence…

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pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Lots of arm waving without any support.  You're just a socialist; decry the wealth docs obtain.  "The richer they get."  

I'm a socialist?  Ok Bob, since you say so.  Anyone who is not a radical libertarian is a socialist apparently.  Public health is widely supported by both parties Bob.  I don't decry the wealth of doctors.  I decry the wealth's influence in directing public health measures if it were left up to the private sector.  Public health measures could not work in the public sector for that reason.

 

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Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Would you be comfortable with the CDC considering suggestions from President Nelson about having in person Church meetings?  How about “non essential” workplaces offering their suggestions for a return to work?

I think it intelligent and highly practical to get input from the people who have to make the regulations work in the real world. 

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