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Status of church


Status of church normalization  

61 members have voted

  1. 1. To what extent is your Sunday meeting schedule "back to normal?"

    • All meetings are still virtual only
    • Sacrament meeting is in person, but 2nd hour is virtual only
    • Both hours are offered in-person
    • Hybrid: In-person sacrament meeting alternates between segments of the ward
  2. 2. What is the level of "mitigation protocols" enforcement in your church meetings? (masks,

    • Stringently enforced/insisted upon
    • Whatever people want to do, in practice


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3 hours ago, Ragerunner said:

I find it interesting that anyone would say they fled to Kentucky for safety. Growing up in the midwest people would have laughed. It’s in the bottom 5 for life expectancy, has been ravaged by opioids, has the highest smoking rate, in the bottom 10 in education, 48th in poverty and 3rd worst for economic opportunity. 
But, the hill country is pretty.

Yeah, but I’m 74 so I really am not concerned about such things. With my experience in addiction recovery maybe I can do something to make things better for a few people.

My son and his family are thriving here. I would rather pass my time here than in what Washington, a beautiful scenic place, has become. There are some wonderful people and some beautiful scenery here too. Lived in Illinois four years. New Mexico, another state low on the scales, for 22. And Utah for 9! I survived Utah, so we’ll be ok in Kentucky. It’s a breath of fresh air compared with the oppression in Seattle.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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2 hours ago, rongo said:

They post about how the alarm went off at 2:30 AM, and how tired everyone was as they regulated the blood sugar, and I wondered if it might not be better to let the 6 year old sleep and address it in the morning?

It depends on how sensitive the kid is and to what. There are effects that linger with highs and lows. Not treating a high for my daughter would set her up for the next 24 hours or more with nausea at the very least, usually headaches and muscle aches as well. 

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3 hours ago, Rain said:

I am saying this as a person who has grown very weared over being called "terrified."  As someone who is for good mask wearing and vaccines.

As a diabetic I see people trying to manipulate by scaring all the time. Not on purpose. They just don't know what else to do. 

It is good for diabetics to know consequences of high and low blood sugar.  Essential.  But after hearing it so many times it becomes something more than behavior.  It is what people use to try to make or control the person into caring for themselves.

The problem comes with assuming if we just scare the person then they will start being compliant and that their blood sugar will be perfect, but compliance won't solve it all.   

But the huge underlying problem with compliance is we are not robots.  We have this complex system of experience, emotions and relationships.  Instead of looking into those complicated factors we try to do it easy by sharing the consequences and if that doesn't work we share the consequences again.

And if we think things are complicated with one diabetic and all their experiences it is nothing to this huge covid mess. I can watch the news, watch TV, go on Facebook,  talk to my neighbor, go to church, etc for a week and not hear anything about the complications of diabetes. It's hard not to hear about covid complications currently.

There is a thing with hearing to many alarms on my insulin pump called alarm fatigue.  You get the idea you really want to have good control so you have all the alarms going off at their lowest settings.  But they go off so much you start to ignore them and it becomes dangerous.  So it's better to have some balance.  Maybe you set it so the alarm goes off at a slightly higher glucose so after you eat it doesn't go off as often.  Three less alarms going off after 3 meals a day may mean you don't ignore when the alarm for low blood sugar sounds.

I don't know what the answer is, but maybe we need to look at underlying experiences and feelings instead of increasing the alarms. In fact I think we should decrease the alarms...somehow.  

 

 

Very good points, and I completely agree.

It is hard to know how to respond to people who downplay the virus and focus on low mortality rates, etc. as an excuse to not wear masks, and compare it to the more deadly heart disease, for example.  They often seem to ignore all the other negative consequences that go along with Covid in their responses.  So it is difficult to know what they have heard about the honest risks and what they have not heard.  It seems unlikely that people have not been educated about the risks, but in my practice I have come to learn through experience that we can't just assume things about what people know, especially considering how social media algorithms work to feed us things we already believe and agree with, and we are often oblivious to the other side.  So, it truly becomes a hard line to walk in wanting to educate people who seem oblivious or apathetic about the very real risks to themselves and others in advocating for masks and vaccines, but at the same time I run the risk of becoming wearisome to the rest of us who are sick and tired of hearing from me about the risks of COVID and the burden it is for society that we can mitigate with 2 simple acts as urged by the First Presidency.  

On the opposite side of alarm fatigue is antipathy to masks/vaccine fatigue.  It is overwhelming.  My own brother ridicules me every time he sees me wearing a mask at family gatherings.  He does so in a brotherly jokingly-jab kind of way.  But it still affects me.  I know he thinks I am ridiculous.  I feel the same way when I went to youth camp and one of the leaders literally laughed at me in front of the whole group for wearing a mask when I couldn't distance, and insisted that they don't work.  Believe it or not, I am a person who is averse to confrontation.  In person, I am reserved and just take it in a good natured way, most of the time.  But it hurts.  I feel the same way when I go to church and was the only family wearing a mask and an old acquaintance wont even acknowledge my existence or make eye contact with me.  I also get tired of people assuming that I am afraid simply because I wear a mask.  "If you are so afraid, why don't you just stay home and never go out".    I am SO fatigued by the antipathy online.  It seems the the more antipathy I hear, the more I want to counter it with real risks, which only makes me sound more afraid, when in reality I am empowered and not afraid precisely because I am vaccinated and wear a mask.  I am more concerned about the welfare of my community and healthcare system.  I pray for the ICU nurses daily. 

How does one counter the persistent antipathy and reckless lies about masks and vaccines without risking alarm fatigue?  It is a real conundrum for me.  I have tried to appeal to morality and neighborly love as Elder Renlund did, but that doesn't seem to work either and I get accused of being self-righteous and judgmental etc.  I honestly don't know what more to say or do.  I am sure most would agree however, that I have said more than enough and would be happy to stop hearing from me.  And I am tempted to just give in and shut up, yet it seems that even with the alarm fatigue that many are experiencing, we are starting to make real progress with some groups.  We are seeing huge gains in the black community, for example.  And even many conservatives are starting to sing a new tune about vaccines.  So I am hopeful that a patient persistence will win out in the end.  Either that, or the virus is a much better teacher than vaccine advocates are.   I just wish there was an easier way, because I am fatigued on so many levels.  I will probably start taking a more moderate approach in the future as it takes a toll on me.  I can only imagine how the ICU nurses feel from hearing the antipathy online...    

 

 

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Those are rhetorical questions, right?

As I explained several times, competent and well-respected doctors have told me that the masks we wear, especially if worn or treated improperly, are pretty useless and may possibly be dangerous. One said wearing a cloth or Walmart mask to protect from viruses is like putting up a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out of your yard. Official instructions stress the importance of following mask guidelines, but I see important public officials flaunting them and the public pretty much ignoring them. Who do we trust? 

I don’t believe that the medicos should march in a lockstep formation. I do believe their egos often get in the way, but when opposing opinion is shamed away or censored, I think this may be a betrayal of the scientific method. 

I trust myself and my common sense. I’ve seen a few things over the years.

I trust that you can wear a mask properly Bernard. 

Perhaps it would be best to stop making excuses for others. 

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who do we trust? 

Why not simply upgrade to kn95 or better and spread the info about their greater effectiveness rather than spend time focusing on what poorly constructed cloth masks can’t do?  The info has always been consistent for the better masks. 
 

I keep hearing “move on”.  This could work well for those frustrated by past mistakes, imo. Why not just go with “man, there was some crap advice out there and it has screwed a lot of people up, but let’s learn from the mistakes by focusing on what is known to be best practices (not just minimal or okay standards) now; if we do, we can improve peoples’ lives now.”

Edited by Calm
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Pogi,

 

Please address why this study said masks are ineffective against the flu. I don't see how they can be effective against COVID then.

"In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks"

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures - Volume 26, Number 5—May 2020 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC 

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3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

don’t believe that the medicos should march in a lockstep formation. I do believe their egos often get in the way, but when opposing opinion is shamed away or censored, I think this may be a betrayal of the scientific method. 

This is assuming there are medical doctors are being shamed into taking vaccines or wearing masks they might consider personally dangerous and not actually reaching an almost global consensus, right? If I am following your correctly (what in this thread is about an almost total public consensus of medical professionals)…

 Do you think that likely?  Or do you think they lied on the survey about being vaccinated?

Edited by Calm
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17 minutes ago, gurn said:

Pogi,

 

Please address why this study said masks are ineffective against the flu. I don't see how they can be effective against COVID then.

"In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks"

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures - Volume 26, Number 5—May 2020 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC 

I think the answer lies somewhere in here:

Quote

 

We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility (Figure 2). However, as with hand hygiene, face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections and therefore have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched.

It is essential to note that the mechanisms of person-to-person transmission in the community have not been fully determined. Controversy remains over the role of transmission through fine-particle aerosols (3,46). Transmission by indirect contact requires transfer of viable virus from respiratory mucosa onto hands and other surfaces, survival on those surfaces, and successful inoculation into the respiratory mucosa of another person. All of these components of the transmission route have not been studied extensively. The impact of environmental factors, such as temperature and humidity, on influenza transmission is also uncertain (47). These uncertainties over basic transmission modes and mechanisms hinder the optimization of control measures.

 

There are several uncertainties which hinder the optimization of controls in this study.  One shouldn't take a study in isolation, we have to consider it in the full scope of evidence.  Very few studies don't have other studies which came to different conclusions.  For example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7169241/

 We have to consider the preponderance of evidence.  Even with this study, it wasn't enough evidence in light of everything else for the CDC not to recommend masks for health care professionals.

 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/maskguidance.htm

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/healthcaresettings.htm

Lots of references and data to back up these recommendations. 

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

Very good points, and I completely agree.

It is hard to know how to respond to people who downplay the virus and focus on low mortality rates, etc. as an excuse to not wear masks, and compare it to the more deadly heart disease, for example.  They often seem to ignore all the other negative consequences that go along with Covid in their responses.  So it is difficult to know what they have heard about the honest risks and what they have not heard.  It seems unlikely that people have not been educated about the risks, but in my practice I have come to learn through experience that we can't just assume things about what people know, especially considering how social media algorithms work to feed us things we already believe and agree with, and we are often oblivious to the other side.  So, it truly becomes a hard line to walk in wanting to educate people who seem oblivious or apathetic about the very real risks to themselves and others in advocating for masks and vaccines, but at the same time I run the risk of becoming wearisome to the rest of us who are sick and tired of hearing from me about the risks of COVID and the burden it is for society that we can mitigate with 2 simple acts as urged by the First Presidency.  

I think with you being in your position with your job it makes it harder because this is what you do every single day.  

I do know we can't trust that people actually know things as well. My husband had a 40 something friend who was a type 2 diabetic.  I knew he drank several cans of regular coke a day. He was struggling with his blood sugar.  One day he saw me with a Diet Coke and said, "you drink diet?!" 

I said, "yes.  I don't want my blood sugar to raise and regular is not worth the extra insulin."

With more conversation I found he didn't realize the effects the regular coke would have on his blood sugar.  I don't know how he missed that. 

2 hours ago, pogi said:

On the opposite side of alarm fatigue is antipathy to masks/vaccine fatigue.  It is overwhelming.  My own brother ridicules me every time he sees me wearing a mask at family gatherings.  He does so in a brotherly jokingly-jab kind of way.  But it still affects me.  I know he thinks I am ridiculous.  I feel the same way when I went to youth camp and one of the leaders literally laughed at me in front of the whole group for wearing a mask when I couldn't distance, and insisted that they don't work.  Believe it or not, I am a person who is averse to confrontation.  In person, I am reserved and just take it in a good natured way, most of the time.  But it hurts.  I feel the same way when I go to church and was the only family wearing a mask and an old acquaintance wont even acknowledge my existence or make eye contact with me.  I also get tired of people assuming that I am afraid simply because I wear a mask.  "If you are so afraid, why don't you just stay home and never go out".    I am SO fatigued by the antipathy online.  It seems the the more antipathy I hear, the more I want to counter it with real risks, which only makes me sound more afraid, when in reality I am empowered and not afraid precisely because I am vaccinated and wear a mask.  I am more concerned about the welfare of my community and healthcare system.  I pray for the ICU nurses daily. 

It is really tough.  My husband doesn't like confrontation either.  He ministers to someone who he has probably given at least 75 blessings to this last 18 months.  He goes over with a mask and is still ridiculed about it, though at least not every time lately.  I don't know how he gets his heart in the right place to bless this man after the ridicule time and time again. 

 

2 hours ago, pogi said:

How does one counter the persistent antipathy and reckless lies about masks and vaccines without risking alarm fatigue?  It is a real conundrum for me.  I have tried to appeal to morality and neighborly love as Elder Renlund did, but that doesn't seem to work either and I get accused of being self-righteous and judgmental etc.  I honestly don't know what more to say or do.  I am sure most would agree however, that I have said more than enough and would be happy to stop hearing from me.  And I am tempted to just give in and shut up, yet it seems that even with the alarm fatigue that many are experiencing, we are starting to make real progress with some groups.  We are seeing huge gains in the black community, for example.  And even many conservatives are starting to sing a new tune about vaccines.  So I am hopeful that a patient persistence will win out in the end.  Either that, or the virus is a much better teacher than vaccine advocates are.   I just wish there was an easier way, because I am fatigued on so many levels.  I will probably start taking a more moderate approach in the future as it takes a toll on me.  I can only imagine how the ICU nurses feel from hearing the antipathy online...    

 

 

 ❤️

Edited by Rain
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why not simply upgrade to kn95 or better and spread the info about their greater effectiveness rather than spend time focusing on what poorly constructed cloth masks can’t do?  The info has always been consistent for the better masks. 
 

I keep hearing “move on”.  This could work well for those frustrated by past mistakes, imo. Why not just go with “man, there was some crap advice out there and it has screwed a lot of people up, but let’s learn from the mistakes by focusing on what is known to be best practices (not just minimal or okay standards) now; if we do, we can improve peoples’ lives now.”

My issue with KN95 is there is no way to verify it is KN95; the is there is no way to verify it functions ad a N95 mask would. Are KN95 authorized for medical use?

The US prohibited the use of KN95 until shortly after the mask shortage. Then when kn95 were "permitted" an entire industry on amazon popped up and there was even a fireworks stand operator in Utah whose kn95 masks were seized.

I did order a SHEMA97. Sen Mike Lee wore one, and NBA Coaches wore the Shema97.

Edited by provoman
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That is why I went with a company that was verified by the consumer protection site I use for supplements. And not buying anything from Amazon and using an established medical supply company otherwise. Of course China might not be using quality control at their end. I may write the US company and ask them if they do quality control checks after they get them or if they depend on the anticounterfeit labeling only. 
 

I am disappointed to hear this man disapproves of ear loops, but after finding the ear loops are a bit loose for me on the Powecom mask, I am adapting by using the strap I bought for the too tight ear loop masks I initially wore.  The Powecom mask does come headband style. 

https://abc13.com/is-my-covid-mask-real-or-fake-how-to-test-if-face-works-n95-masks-kn95/10528203/

These tests suggested here seem a practical way to test quality of masks. I’ll need to buy sweet and low to test that, but the smell of smoke dropped to zip while wearing it. I will do the other tests later. 
 

I keep writing it as Powercom and not Powecom. If doing research on the mask, please remember the difference. 
 

PS:  making no money off of endorsing it, just making it more likely I will have to wait longer on my next order. :)

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

This is assuming there are medical doctors are being shamed into taking vaccines or wearing masks they might consider personally dangerous and not actually reaching an almost global consensus, right? If I am following your correctly (what in this thread is about an almost total public consensus of medical professionals)…

 Do you think that likely?  Or do you think they lied on the survey about being vaccinated?

I do not know what to think. At our last visit with our current family doctor, he pointed to our masks and said, “You know those are pretty much useless in blocking a virus, right?” And then explained why. Expired or airborne viruses are not blocked because they are so small, there are gaps in the sides, etc. Our previous physician in WA said the same thing. Anecdotal, but worth considering. 
 

Quote

A new study, published online this month, sheds light on why. It finds that the variant grows more rapidly inside people's respiratory tracts and to much higher levels, researchers at the Guangdong Provincial Center for Disease Control and Prevention reported.

On average, people infected with the delta variant had about 1,000 times more copies of the virus in their respiratory tracts than those infected with the original strain of the coronavirus, the study reported.

In addition, after someone catches the delta variant, the person likely becomes infectious sooner. On average, it took about four days for the delta variant to reach detectable levels inside a person, compared with six days for the original coronavirus variant. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/08/1013794996/why-the-delta-variant-is-so-contagious-a-new-study-sheds-light

This suggests to me that masks that were “effective” in blocking the first virus should be far less effective against Delta, and if Delta-infected persons carry 1000 times the viral load, we should have masks that are 1000 times more effective. What do I know? I’m a violinist, for Pete’s sake!

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Why not simply upgrade to kn95 or better and spread the info about their greater effectiveness rather than spend time focusing on what poorly constructed cloth masks can’t do?  The info has always been consistent for the better masks. 
 

I keep hearing “move on”.  This could work well for those frustrated by past mistakes, imo. Why not just go with “man, there was some crap advice out there and it has screwed a lot of people up, but let’s learn from the mistakes by focusing on what is known to be best practices (not just minimal or okay standards) now; if we do, we can improve peoples’ lives now.”

If we are dealing with something that is 1000 times the viral load, I want something even better than kn95s. I want the Lamborghini of masks. 

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7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If we are dealing with something that is 1000 times the viral load, I want something even better than kn95s. I want the Lamborghini of masks. 

So, it is all or nothing?  Do you insist buying your car at that quality or not at all?  Given the risk of injury or death by vehicle?

I would definitely go with N95 if you have a good source. 
 

Someone posted an easy how to self fit an N95 awhile back.  I can’t find the link…if someone remembers it and/or tracks it down, please repost it. 
 

I look on the kn95 as the minimum at this point. Not saying that should be the only option.  Go for the best you can afford and very important, are willing and able to use consistently. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

So, it is all or nothing?  Do you insist buying your car at that quality or not at all?  Given the risk of injury or death by vehicle?

I must remember the “just kidding” emoji. Driving a Mazda CX-5.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I would definitely go with N95 if you have a good source. 
Someone posted an easy how to self fit an N95 awhile back.  I can’t find the link…if someone remembers it and/or tracks it down, please repost it. 
I look on the kn95 as the minimum at this point. Not saying that should be the only option.  Go for the best you can afford and very important, are willing and able to use consistently. 

Thanks.

And used properly, as per CDC and FDA guidelines. Single use only masks. Not supposed to wear again after taking off and must be handled and disposed of properly, not touching the outside of the mask, washing hands after removal. CDC warns many fake KN95s.

K95 $3 a pop, KN95 $1-$3 a pop on Amazon. Mucho dinero if you use more than one mask per day. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And used properly, as per CDC and FDA guidelines. Single use only masks

If you have the option of disinfecting in the oven or in UV light ( outside?), I have read on reliable sites you can use it three times if it doesn’t get dirty, disinfecting in between. After that the filtering ability starts breaking down.  Will have to see if CDC disapproves of disinfection for those when possible. The kind I use are 66$ for 100. Gets cheaper the more you buy. If you don’t want to hassle with the extra strap, the headband is 99$ per one hundred.  
 

BYU is looking into a new form of mask, that may help improve the cloth variety filtering ability, been months since I looked at that, have to see if they figured out the air tightness need as well.

 It can certainly get expensive for those who can’t afford the extra 30-40$ a month, but if one is skipping the restaurants and movies and concerts and have managed to keep your job, if you avoid buying more games and videos for home entertainment, it could be not that big of an  impact on the wallet. 
 

added:  I just read the cdc guidelines and it allows for cleaning/disinfecting of kn95 

Edited by Calm
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9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

That sounds so awesome!  Wish I coulda been there! ;) :D 

P.S.:  For the record, I replied before I saw the answer of our resident expert on all things Roman Catholic and Dear Friend, Miserere Nobis! :D 

Thanks for the kind words, but that appellation belongs to 3DOP 😊

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6 hours ago, Emily said:

Future data may change my mind, but for now, I really can't hesitate to hold unvaccinated vectors fully responsible for the resurgence.

Well, some responsibility must also be born by those in government, medicine, and media who gave the All Clear signal.

As for future data, the worldwide situation is not static. As noted in your report, there are wide monthly fluctuations.

Quote

As the data shift, the Ranking will change too—we’ll continue to update the picture every month, as it evolves.

Having read the Bloomberg article, I don’t believe it supports your claim that “ if you were eligible for vaccination and you didn't get vaccinated, this resurgence of the virus is all your fault.”

Quote

New No. 1 Norway is one of the only places of the 53 to have combined success in the initial stage of the pandemic with the recovery stage we’re in now. It’s consistently been in the top 15, first relying on social cohesion for people to comply with social distancing measures and implementing strict border restrictions. Later, Norway procured a sizable supply of vaccines early with the European Union.…

It’s not a final verdict—it never could be, given the imperfections in virus and vaccine data and the fast pace of this crisis. Circumstance and pure luck also play a role, but are hard to quantify.

New variants of concern, which will continue to emerge as outbreaks rage in the developing world, are also a wild card: scientists fear mutations that can overcome existing vaccination and drive a new phase of the pandemic.

Still, having endured a year and half of fighting Covid-19, governments and populations now have a better understanding of the pathogen, how to mitigate the damage it inflicts, and how to develop inoculations against its various strains.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

That's awesome.

I love this quote from the back of Pete Seeger's "How to Play the 5 String Banjo" supposedly from an old-time self-taught banjo picker:

 

Well, to be fair, a “folk singer” activist from Manhattan isn’t The Real McCoy, Kentucky style. He “gentrified” the Appalachian banjo style…cultural appropriation, wouldn’t we say? I never thought the “folk” singers were really folks, if you know what I mean. 😁

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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you have the option of disinfecting in the oven or in UV light ( outside?), I have read on reliable sites you can use it three times if it doesn’t get dirty, disinfecting in between. After that the filtering ability starts breaking down.  Will have to see if CDC disapproves of disinfection for those when possible. The kind I use are 66$ for 100. Gets cheaper the more you buy. If you don’t want to hassle with the extra strap, the headband is 99$ per one hundred.


BYU is looking into a new form of mask, that may help improve the cloth variety filtering ability, been months since I looked at that, have to see if they figured out the air tightness need as well.

 It can certainly get expensive for those who can’t afford the extra 30-40$ a month, but if one is skipping the restaurants and movies and concerts and have managed to keep your job, if you avoid buying more games and videos for home entertainment, it could be not that big of an  impact on the wallet. 
 

added:  I just read the cdc guidelines and it allows for cleaning/disinfecting of kn95 

Your source for cheap masks? It gets more expensive if you are buying for more than one person.

Skipping restaurants, movies, concerts, games, videos…all the things that make life enjoyable? Maybe. Skipping concerts eliminates musicians’ livelihood.😬

Would you please give me the citation for cleaning?

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6 hours ago, pogi said:

I trust that you can wear a mask properly Bernard. 

Perhaps it would be best to stop making excuses for others. 

Condescension does not convince. Folks can make their own excuses.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

What does?

Ridicule works. 

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