Status of church

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If this thread is any indication, those stake presidents were spot on.

I think most are willing and ready (most have been doing it all along) to move on and get and keep church back to normal. Online discussion (including social media) has been heated, but in person, face to face, I think most people are being friendly and civil in church settings. 

The First Presidency letter once again divides the baby by urging people to wear masks and vaccinate (which makes one segment happy), but leaving it open for people to do what they think is right. I think overwhelmingly, most local leaders didn't and aren't going to make it a showdown issue on Sunday. 

The Church desperately needs to normalize to get back on track with missionary work, fellowshipping, and reactivation efforts. I think most people who have missed normal church feel this. 

[Bernard Gui]

55 minutes ago, pogi said:

A virus going wily billy is pretty much the definition of a pandemic.  We are no where close to doing what we can to control it and reduce the burden on hospitals. 

Very few people are perfect at following guidelines on proper teeth brushing either, I think it would be reckless to suggest that we just give up because few are perfect. 

Do you doubt the inspiration of the First Presidency and all that has been said by other apostles on masks?

Sorry. I don’t play the “Don’t You Believe the First Presidency Game” or the “Don’t You Believe the Science Game.” That is such a demeaning question.

I wear masks when appropriate, I was vaccinated very early on, we dutifully social distanced, we isolated ourselves from family and friends in our home for almost a year as per instructions, asked younger people to do our shopping for us, took my vitamin D, used hand sanitizer religiously, tried to find correct information from multiple sources, sterilized all the stuff from the stores before bringing it into our home, , etc., etc., etc., so I am hardly a Science/Prophet denier. I am very tired of mixed and contradictory messages from science and media and the ongoing fear tactics being used to manipulate people. My trust has evaporated into the air. So when science says to wear a mask according to the guidelines or they are not very effective, you are suggesting that’s like not brushing your teeth properly. OK. BTW, I have never suggested we “just give up.” Those are your words. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

duplicate

Edited August 16, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

The Church desperately needs to normalize to get back on track with missionary work, fellowshipping, and reactivation efforts. I think most people who have missed normal church feel this. 

I don't see how vaccines and/or masks would hamper these efforts.  

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sorry. I don’t play the “Don’t You Believe the First Presidency Game” or the “Don’t You Believe the Science Game.” 

I wear masks when appropriate, I was vaccinated very early on, we dutifully social distanced, we isolated ourselves from family and friends in our home for almost a year as per instructions, asked younger people to do our shopping for us, used hand sanitizer religiously, tried to find correct information from multiple sources, sterilized all the stuff from the stores before bringing it into our home, , etc., etc., etc., so I am hardly a Science/Prophet denier. I am very tired of mixed and contradictory messages from science and media and the ongoing fear tactics being used to manipulate people. My trust has evaporated into the air. So when science says to wear a mask according to the guidelines or they are not very effective, you are suggesting that’s like not brushing your teeth properly. OK. BTW, I have never suggested we “just give up.” Those are your words. 

Why is warning people about the risks considered a scare tactic to manipulate people?  Hasn't the medical field been mostly right in regard to the risks, despite the vigorous downplaying of the virus?  Didn't they warn us to be prepared for the Delta variant?  

Aren't our prophets supposed to be a sound of warning to prepare of forthcoming doom and gloom?  Do you consider that manipulative too?

I'm sorry you have lost trust in the medical field.  I honestly don't know who you can look to in matters such as this if you don't have them as a foundation.  We do have our prophets, but they have repeatedly and consistently agreed with the medical field on masks though.  So honestly, who is left to trust?

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't see how vaccines and/or masks would hamper these efforts.  

They would probably help with that effort, since they will hopefully help keep states from mandating shutdowns when numbers get bad.

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Richmond, home of the Eastern Kentucky University Colonels. One of the brothers in our stake owns the Stringbean Memorial Bluegrass Festival. I had the honor of jamming with some of his neighbors and him up in McKee.They are incredible self-taught musicians...the Real McCoy, as it were. We’re going to do it again. 

That's awesome.

I love this quote from the back of Pete Seeger's "How to Play the 5 String Banjo" supposedly from an old-time self-taught banjo picker:

Quote

"...can I read notes?  Hell, there are no notes to a banjo.  You just play it."

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

If this thread is any indication, those stake presidents were spot on.

I think this thread has been mostly civil, slightly heated (which is expected and ok).  There certainly is some anger (also expected and ok).  But nothing out of hand that I can see, except for maybe one meme about stupidity. 

These are hard conversations to have, but I think we are doing mostly ok.  I honestly don't know how to not feel anger towards people who downplay the virus and the recommendations from the medical field when they are not the ones working in the ICU's.  Yes the CDC has fumbled their messaging , we can get mad at them for that, but that doesn't discount what the rest of the consensus of the medical field has been saying all along, that masks work and that we should wear them.  There is little to no debate amongst anybody except a faction of ideologically driven individuals.  Even there, many in that group agree with the medical field and mask recommendations, they just don't think they should be mandated.  I can tolerate that much more than people who reckless spread lies, claiming that masks don't work because they got sick while wearing them - and that is their only reason.   How does one not get angry about that?  These people have significant influence on lay people. 

How does one not get angry at drunk drivers who downplay the risks to themselves and others?  I think it is a fair comparison.  

That is a line a wrestle with between anger and civility.  But I think civility is mostly wining, though I am not perfect. 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by pogi

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Richmond, home of the Eastern Kentucky University Colonels. One of the brothers in our stake owns the Stringbean Memorial Bluegrass Festival. I had the honor of jamming with some of his neighbors and him up in McKee.They are incredible self-taught musicians...the Real McCoy, as it were. We’re going to do it again. 

That sounds so awesome!  Wish I coulda been there!   

P.S.:  For the record, I replied before I saw the answer of our resident expert on all things Roman Catholic and Dear Friend, Miserere Nobis!  

Edited August 16, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think this thread has been mostly civil, slightly heated (which is expected and ok).  There certainly is some anger (also expected and ok).  But nothing out of hand that I can see, except for maybe one meme about stupidity. 

These are hard conversations to have, but I think we are doing mostly ok.  I honestly don't know how to not feel anger towards people who downplay the virus and the recommendations from the medical field when they are not the ones working in the ICU's.  Yes the CDC has fumbled their messaging , we can get mad at them for that, but that doesn't discount what the rest of the consensus of the medical field has been saying all along, that masks work and that we should wear them.  There is little to no debate amongst anybody except a faction of ideologically driven individuals.  Even there, many in that group agree with the medical field and mask recommendations, they just don't think they should be mandated.  I can tolerate that much more than people who reckless spread lies, claiming that masks don't work because they got sick while wearing them - and that is their only reason.   How does one not get angry about that?  These people have significant influence on lay people. 

How does one not get angry at drunk drivers who downplay the risks to themselves and others?  I think it is a fair comparison.  

That is a line a wrestle with between anger and civility.  But I think civility is mostly wining, though I am not perfect. 

 

I'm not really talking about incivility.  

I think that we can be self righteous and unrighteously judgemental while still being civil.  It's those things, rather than incivility, that I think the stake presidents are worried about.  

[Ragerunner]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh. I did not take that personally, KG. I was just thinking of the irony of having just fled the ever-deteriorating Seattle area for the hills of Kentucky. 🙂 While I would never wish such destruction on anyone (I grew up in Los Alamos, NM, just after WW2), it does give me occasion to say “Hmmmmmm.” Sodom and Gomorrah 2021? 🤪 

I would be honored to fiddle a tune or two…..no charge!

I find it interesting that anyone would say they fled to Kentucky for safety. Growing up in the midwest people would have laughed. It’s in the bottom 5 for life expectancy, has been ravaged by opioids, has the highest smoking rate, in the bottom 10 in education, 48th in poverty and 3rd worst for economic opportunity. 
But, the hill country is pretty.

[Ragerunner]

So I have family around the US and many are experiencing different responses to the First Presidency’s Statement.

Family in the Midwest in multiple stakes/wards received supporting emails or letters from local leadership to the council from the First Presidency. Some are requiring mask again, get vaccinated and/or asking members to strongly support the prophet. With 95 to 100 percent compliance. 

Family in the south have general seen little to no support by local leaders to champion what the First Presidency has asked. Our Stake and Ward has also taken the silenced approach. 

Family in California has seen both situations. Depending on what part of California you live in.

Family in Utah has seen little support, but with some exceptions.

I really find it interesting to see how this is playing out. It’s sad to see not only members but many local leaders so locked in on their politics that they simply can’t bring themselves to back the Prophet and First Presidency.

It makes this quote seem more eye opening than ever before. 

“True, there may be those deranged persons who suppose they are God, or Christ, or the Holy Ghost, or almost anything. None but the lunatic fringe among men, however, will give them a second serious thought. The promise of false Christs who will deceive, if it were possible, even the very elect, who will lead astray those who have made eternal covenant with the Lord, is a far more subtle and insidious evil.” Quote from Pearl of Great Price Institute Manual

[rongo]

28 minutes ago, Ragerunner said:

I really find it interesting to see how this is playing out. It’s sad to see not only members but many local leaders so locked in on their politics that they simply can’t bring themselves to back the Prophet and First Presidency.

The range of experiences certainly is interesting. 

I think it is misleading and inaccurate to peg this as people being "so locked in on their politics." I think it is much more complex than tribal politics. Gut feeling (separate from partisan politics), past/current experiences, concerns, etc. all factor in. To use just one example, non-white populations display real vaccine hesitancy (there are some historical reasons with a bearing on that), so it is certainly much more complicated than "politics" (which is code for "right wing politics"). There are a number of reasons having nothing to do with politics that people have for resisting masks and Coronavirus vaccines. 

[Rain]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Why is warning people about the risks considered a scare tactic to manipulate people? 

I am saying this as a person who has grown very weary over being called "terrified."  As someone who is for good mask wearing and vaccines.

As a diabetic I see people trying to manipulate by scaring all the time. Not on purpose. They just don't know what else to do. 

It is good for diabetics to know consequences of high and low blood sugar.  Essential.  But after hearing it so many times it becomes something more than behavior.  It is what people use to try to make or control the person into caring for themselves.

The problem comes with assuming if we just scare the person then they will start being compliant and that their blood sugar will be perfect, but compliance won't solve it all.   

But the huge underlying problem with compliance is we are not robots.  We have this complex system of experience, emotions and relationships.  Instead of looking into those complicated factors we try to do it easy by sharing the consequences and if that doesn't work we share the consequences again.

And if we think things are complicated with one diabetic and all their experiences it is nothing to this huge covid mess. I can watch the news, watch TV, go on Facebook,  talk to my neighbor, go to church, etc for a week and not hear anything about the complications of diabetes. It's hard not to hear about covid complications currently.

There is a thing with hearing to many alarms on my insulin pump called alarm fatigue.  You get the idea you really want to have good control so you have all the alarms going off at their lowest settings.  But they go off so much you start to ignore them and it becomes dangerous.  So it's better to have some balance.  Maybe you set it so the alarm goes off at a slightly higher glucose so after you eat it doesn't go off as often.  Three less alarms going off after 3 meals a day may mean you don't ignore when the alarm for low blood sugar sounds.

I don't know what the answer is, but maybe we need to look at underlying experiences and feelings instead of increasing the alarms. In fact I think we should decrease the alarms...somehow.  

 

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Hasn't the medical field been mostly right in regard to the risks, despite the vigorous downplaying of the virus?  Didn't they warn us to be prepared for the Delta variant?  

Aren't our prophets supposed to be a sound of warning to prepare of forthcoming doom and gloom?  Do you consider that manipulative too?

I'm sorry you have lost trust in the medical field.  I honestly don't know who you can look to in matters such as this if you don't have them as a foundation.  We do have our prophets, but they have repeatedly and consistently agreed with the medical field on masks though.  So honestly, who is left to trust?

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Rain

[Ragerunner]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

The range of experiences certainly is interesting. 

I think it is misleading and inaccurate to peg this as people being "so locked in on their politics." I think it is much more complex than tribal politics. Gut feeling (separate from partisan politics), past/current experiences, concerns, etc. all factor in. To use just one example, non-white populations display real vaccine hesitancy (there are some historical reasons with a bearing on that), so it is certainly much more complicated than "politics" (which is code for "right wing politics"). There are a number of reasons having nothing to do with politics that people have for resisting masks and Coronavirus vaccines. 

I am sure there are really many complex nuances that are playing out. But miss information and politics have a very strong hand in how many are responding or not responding as the case maybe.

Including their unwillingness to champion the First Presidency’s request. 
 

Frequently a person will tell you a lot where they stand on things. Not by what they say but by what they don’t say or do.

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

As a diabetic I see people trying to manipulate by scaring all the time. Not on purpose. They just don't know what else to do. 

It is good for diabetics to know consequences of high and low blood sugar.  Essential.  But after hearing it so many times it becomes something more than behavior.  It is what people use to try to make or control the person into caring for themselves.

The problem comes with assuming if we just scare the person then they will start being compliant and that their blood sugar will be perfect, but compliance won't solve it all.   

My wife's father passed away a month ago. He was 70, insulin-dependent, and refused to pretend to follow his diet. His doctors were very upset with him (had been for years), and told him that he was literally killing himself by eating whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted to. He had had many (too many to count) stints put in, and had heart attacks and strokes directly tied to his diabetes (the effects on blood vessels and bleeding). 

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

There is a thing with hearing to many alarms on my insulin pump called alarm fatigue.  You get the idea you really want to have good control so you have all the alarms going off at their lowest settings.  But they go off so much you start to ignore them and it becomes dangerous.  So it's better to have some balance.  Maybe you set it so the alarm goes off at a slightly higher glucose so after you eat it doesn't go off as often.  Three less alarms going off after 3 meals a day may mean you don't ignore when the alarm for low blood sugar sounds.

I have friends who are the opposite. They obsessively monitor the pump readings remotely all the time, post about their hysteria on Facebook, etc. My wife and I have wondered if it might not be better for these people not to have this instant, real-time information. They post about how the alarm went off at 2:30 AM, and how tired everyone was as they regulated the blood sugar, and I wondered if it might not be better to let the 6 year old sleep and address it in the morning? They are obsessive slaves to the alarm. Then again, I'm sure they offer good real-time warnings about looming or imminent problems.

We had a diabetic girl at girls camp who said she felt really bad on the hike (she also looked scary). She said she had forgotten to bring her insulin to camp (  ). She looked like she was going into shock or about to go into a coma. We gave her a blessing and carried her down from the mountain (we didn't want her to exert herself at all). Her blood sugar level ended up being 700, which would normally be a coma. The doctor said that she appeared to have a much higher tolerance that would kill others. 

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

My wife's father passed away a month ago. He was 70, insulin-dependent, and refused to pretend to follow his diet. His doctors were very upset with him (had been for years), and told him that he was literally killing himself by eating whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted to. He had had many (too many to count) stints put in, and had heart attacks and strokes directly tied to his diabetes (the effects on blood vessels and bleeding). 

I have friends who are the opposite. They obsessively monitor the pump readings remotely all the time, post about their hysteria on Facebook, etc. My wife and I have wondered if it might not be better for these people not to have this instant, real-time information. They post about how the alarm went off at 2:30 AM, and how tired everyone was as they regulated the blood sugar, and I wondered if it might not be better to let the 6 year old sleep and address it in the morning? They are obsessive slaves to the alarm. Then again, I'm sure they offer good real-time warnings about looming or imminent problems.

My guess is that while the parents may not get alarm fatigue the child will.  If I were living now as a teenager I would do everything I could to not have my info sent to my parents. A 6 year old is different of course.

But it really depends on the alarm.  Running a little high for 1 night will be ok. It's that drop that is the immediate danger.

I admit I talk back to my pump.  The alarms bother me and my husband both.  But I used to get seizures several times a year from low blood sugar and haven't had them once since I got on the pump 4 years ago.  It has given peace if mind to all of us.

But I have done some playing with my alarms so I don't get so many.  

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

We had a diabetic girl at girls camp who said she felt really bad on the hike (she also looked scary). She said she had forgotten to bring her insulin to camp (  ). She looked like she was going into shock or about to go into a coma. We gave her a blessing and carried her down from the mountain (we didn't want her to exert herself at all). Her blood sugar level ended up being 700, which would normally be a coma. The doctor said that she appeared to have a much higher tolerance that would kill others. 

 

[Emily]

13 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

I think everyone realizes something wrong. What to do is the disagreement.

So, some of us are saying, "My solution. I'll get vaccinated. I will be part of the population that is helping prevent more virulent variations of an already virulent virus. I will be a person who helps relieve the overburdened healthcare system by protecting myself from serious illness. I will make sure I'm not a vector for a killing disease, so that immuno compromised individuals and children will remain safe."

And the other person is saying, "I disagree with your solution." 

Well, here's the thing about disagreeing. It's not enough to simply say, "I don't like your solution."

The problem still exists, no matter how much you dislike the proposed solution. In order to properly disagree with a solution, you have to offer an equally viable, but different solution.

You also need to provide cogent evidence that your solution will be better at unclogging the hospitals, saving lives, and protecting the next several decades of people's lives (and our economy) from the debilitating long term effects of Covid.

When the anti-vaccers come up with a different solution, then their disagreement will have some weight. Until then, they are like my grandchildren, who are fond of telling me that I need to make it less hot outside, make the rain stop, make it daytime. I usually ask them how I should do these complicated things. Their solutions generally involve magic or brute force. ("Knock the moon down!")

I think the anti-vaccers are similarly fanciful. But maybe they'll think of something more viable before the next variant appears - the one that causes a big, ugly rash on the face of anyone who hasn't been vaccinated. (That's my magic solution to the problem.)

Edited August 16, 2021 by Emily

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Emily said:

So, some of us are saying, "My solution. I'll get vaccinated. I will be part of the population that is helping prevent more virulent variations of an already virulent virus. I will be a person who helps relieve the overburdened healthcare system by protecting myself from serious illness. I will make sure I'm not a vector for a killing disease, so that immuno compromised individuals and children will remain safe."

And the other person is saying, "Well. I disagree with your solution." 

Well, here's the thing about disagreeing. It's not enough to simply say, "I don't like your solution."

The problem still exists, no matter how much you dislike the proposed solution. So in order to properly disagree with a solution, you have to offer an equally viable, but different solution.

You also need to provide cogent evidence that your solution will be better at unclogging the hospitals, saving lives, and protecting the next several decades of people's lives (and our economy) from the debilitating long term effects of Covid.

When the anti-vaccers come up with a different solution, then their disagreement will have some weight. Until then, they are like my grandchildren, who are fond of telling me that I need to make it less hot outside, make the rain stop, make it daytime. I usually ask them how I should do these complicated things. Their solutions generally involve magic or brute force. ("Knock the moon down!")

I think the anti-vaccers are similarly fanciful. But maybe they'll think of something more viable before the next variant appears - the one that causes a big, ugly rash on the face of anyone who hasn't been vaccinated. (That's my magic solution to the problem.)

Is there a poster, who disagrees with masking and / or vaccination, that thinks the COVID-19 represents a problem that warrants the attention governments in teh USA and across the globe are giving it?

[Ragerunner]

10 minutes ago, Emily said:

So, some of us are saying, "My solution. I'll get vaccinated. I will be part of the population that is helping prevent more virulent variations of an already virulent virus. I will be a person who helps relieve the overburdened healthcare system by protecting myself from serious illness. I will make sure I'm not a vector for a killing disease, so that immuno compromised individuals and children will remain safe."

And the other person is saying, "I disagree with your solution." 

Well, here's the thing about disagreeing. It's not enough to simply say, "I don't like your solution."

The problem still exists, no matter how much you dislike the proposed solution. In order to properly disagree with a solution, you have to offer an equally viable, but different solution.

You also need to provide cogent evidence that your solution will be better at unclogging the hospitals, saving lives, and protecting the next several decades of people's lives (and our economy) from the debilitating long term effects of Covid.

When the anti-vaccers come up with a different solution, then their disagreement will have some weight. Until then, they are like my grandchildren, who are fond of telling me that I need to make it less hot outside, make the rain stop, make it daytime. I usually ask them how I should do these complicated things. Their solutions generally involve magic or brute force. ("Knock the moon down!")

I think the anti-vaccers are similarly fanciful. But maybe they'll think of something more viable before the next variant appears - the one that causes a big, ugly rash on the face of anyone who hasn't been vaccinated. (That's my magic solution to the problem.)

Emily - 5 Star Post

[secondclasscitizen]

19 hours ago, pogi said:

I said ward boundaries.

Where do you live?

Yep, probably at church.

Arizona

def did not get it at church. It was closed for business during Christmas 2020. Probably got it at work where we all had been masked up. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

The range of experiences certainly is interesting. 

I think it is misleading and inaccurate to peg this as people being "so locked in on their politics." I think it is much more complex than tribal politics. Gut feeling (separate from partisan politics), past/current experiences, concerns, etc. all factor in. To use just one example, non-white populations display real vaccine hesitancy (there are some historical reasons with a bearing on that), so it is certainly much more complicated than "politics" (which is code for "right wing politics"). There are a number of reasons having nothing to do with politics that people have for resisting masks and Coronavirus vaccines. 

I agree that there are a diversity of influences.  But one can't dismiss the political influence as a major contributor.  You mention "concerns" as a factor.  I don't disagree, but many of those "concerns" are planted by people like Tucker Carlson.

Quote

 

The partisan gap is astonishing. More than 80% of Democrats have already received at least one shot, compared with 49% of Republicans. Twenty-seven percent of Republicans say that they won’t get vaccinated under any circumstances, and an additional 9% will do so only if required. The comparable figures for Democrats are 3% outright refusal and 3% only if required.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-drives-gop-resistance-to-vaccines-11623190392

 

Those numbers are even factoring in the hesitancy among black people who mostly identify as democrat, which skew the political numbers slightly. 

Quote

Trends in party affiliation among black voters have been largely stable over recent years. Overall, 87% of black voters identify with the Democratic Party or lean Democratic, compared with just 7% who identify as Republican or lean Republican.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/09/13/2-party-affiliation-among-voters-1992-2016/

What is the single greatest predictable factor in which republican sector refuses vaccines?

Quote

 

The most likely group to refuse the Covid-19 vaccine are Republicans who consume far-right television news

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/07/28/here-are-the-republicans-most-likely-to-refuse-the-covid-19-vaccine-poll-finds/?sh=1e02bbb735f8

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by pogi

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Is there a poster, who disagrees with masking and / or vaccination, that thinks the COVID-19 represents a problem that warrants the attention governments in teh USA and across the globe are giving it?

I would guess probably not.

Their solution is often to say that it's not an actual problem.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Why is warning people about the risks considered a scare tactic to manipulate people?  Hasn't the medical field been mostly right in regard to the risks, despite the vigorous downplaying of the virus?  Didn't they warn us to be prepared for the Delta variant?  

Aren't our prophets supposed to be a sound of warning to prepare of forthcoming doom and gloom?  Do you consider that manipulative too?

I'm sorry you have lost trust in the medical field.  I honestly don't know who you can look to in matters such as this if you don't have them as a foundation.  We do have our prophets, but they have repeatedly and consistently agreed with the medical field on masks though.  So honestly, who is left to trust?

Those are rhetorical questions, right?

As I explained several times, competent and well-respected doctors have told me that the masks we wear, especially if worn or treated improperly, are pretty useless and may possibly be dangerous. One said wearing a cloth or Walmart mask to protect from viruses is like putting up a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out of your yard. Official instructions stress the importance of following mask guidelines, but I see important public officials flaunting them and the public pretty much ignoring them. Who do we trust? 

I don’t believe that the medicos should march in a lockstep formation. I do believe their egos often get in the way, but when opposing opinion is shamed away or censored, I think this may be a betrayal of the scientific method. 

I trust myself and my common sense. I’ve seen a few things over the years.

[Emily]

5 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Arizona

def did not get it at church. It was closed for business during Christmas 2020. Probably got it at work where we all had been masked up. 

I live in Arizona and we've had two confirmed Covid deaths in our ward and one death of a family member who wasn't part of our ward (non-member), but we helped with the funeral. We've also got two long Covid cases. The people survived the infection, but they aren't doing well. We recently had an outbreak that kept several of our ward members home for two weeks. Fortunately, most of them were vaccinated so it wasn't too serious, but they aren't happy with the unvaccinated vector.

We personally have a branch of the family that were firm Covid deniers who are currently struggling with four cases of long Covid. They nearly lost a fourteen year old granddaughter who was perfectly healthy until her grandmother infected her. Both her mother (who was hospitalized with a collapsed lung) and grandmother have made public expressions of regret for not being vaccinated. This has been a humbling situation for all of them that I would not wish on anyone... Vaccination would have been so much less painful in every way.

In short, the virus is indeed spreading in Arizona, whatever your personal experience.

And here is the really hard truth that needs to be understood. Had everyone capable of vaccination already been vaccinated, the Delta variant would not have got a foothold in our country and we wouldn't be facing another round of masks and social distancing.

So, if you were eligible for vaccination and you didn't get vaccinated, this resurgence of the virus is all your fault. Don't expect anyone to feel sorry that you have to wear a mask at work.

Edit: My husband said I should have said, "you are probably responsible for the resurgence of the virus"... I disagreed. There is plenty of evidence to show that lack of adequate levels of vaccination in the population is directly responsible for the resurgence of the virus. I'll share this article in support. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-resilience-ranking/

"Tapping 12 data indicators that span Covid containment, quality of healthcare, vaccination coverage, overall mortality and—as of last month—progress toward restarting travel and easing border curbs, the Ranking’s top performers are increasingly those economies where vaccination is driving containment and underpinning reopening."

Future data may change my mind, but for now, I really can't hesitate to hold unvaccinated vectors fully responsible for the resurgence.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Emily