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Elder andersen on abortion


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On 4/15/2021 at 6:52 PM, BlueDreams said:

I know I mentioned prior that I’m not pro-choice or Life. But because I was talking to someone largely pro-life in contrast I looked pretty dang pro-choice :P . So I assume this may seem the opposite here when I’m discussing this with you. But just as a reminder part of me agree with you. I felt in my gut on a relatively “normal” pregnancy minus the last week that as much as possible, even if I think this journey is worth it, I couldn’t force every woman to choose this and insist they go through the same thing. But I think there are limits based on the viability of autonomous life outside the womb and overall community health that makes me pause on pro-choice idealism.  

I was curious after this post to look up the countries with the highest scores for gender parity and compare it to their laws on abortion access. For the top 10 countries they all had different allowances on access and different gestational limits (most were either around 20 or 12 weeks depending). One country was very restrictive. To be fair, there is some correlation. The worst countries all had regulations, some were extremely restricted and needed permission from parents or husbands. But in the middle there was a wide range and you couldn’t really see a correlation off hand to how well they were doing on gender parity by their abortion laws. Some were more permissive than the top 10. Some more restricted. but either way there wasn’t a complete and solid line that tied women’s status as fully and equal people to whether or not abortion was permitted no matter the circumstances or week of gestation. Especially once you hit a base line for basic women’s rights.

You’ve mentioned more than once “have some faith in women”...but I think that may oversimplify the moral balance at play in most countries around this. To a degree you’re right. Many countries with extremely restricted abortion laws likely don’t have a lot of faith in women and see them as less than. Yet when you hit a certain degree of parity it gets more complicated. It’s not just about women’s rights over their bodies. Any more than this is simply a concern of personhood and innocence of the child. Rather it’s finding a reasonable balance between moral principles and human value that the community as a whole, including women who are generally empowered in their life, can be okay with. 
I think part of the problem at play here is that in the US we never found that balance. Instead we keep vacillating and pushing for our moral absolutes. The catch all that either allows all abortions no matter what or condemns all but the very few. This tension in our current place of polarization maintains super unhealthy social trends. We have states that are reactively pushing for more and more restrictive abortion rights, women caught in ideological conflicts, people who vote solely based on this issue and nothing else even if there are other concerns that are extremely important for child and family health that are left effectively ignored (that ironically would likely reduce the abortion rate naturally as pressures on women force decisions they wouldn’t naturally take), and it leaves us with 50+ different rules about abortion that women in difficult circumstances and pressing times have to navigate. All of this is unhealthy and destabilizing...just because we insist on laws that fit perfectly into our own moral code. Instead of having reasonable middle ground laws that allow good access to abortion within a gestational limit and medical care and then focusing our energy on women and children’s health to reduce poverty and expand social/economic opportunities and promote good sex education. Instead so much energy gets sucked into this ONE issue at the cost of so many others that leaves us around the levels of several lower income countries in terms of gender equality. This isn’t my idea of empowerment for women. If anything it leads realistically to a net loss. 
 

With luv, 

BD

Oh yes, I am aware of your nuanced position, BD and have enjoyed many of your thoughts about it. :D

I think I can agree with much of what you have said here, and in my opinion I think the vast majority of your comments are consistent with non-criminalization of abortion.

What I am going to say does reframe a bit: I wholly agree that the fight for criminalization is used as a divisive wedge, and I think it is more symbolic and exploitative of shallow civic engagement. It is a horrible waste of energy and resources which can be better applied to actually improve the outcomes of pregnancies and the overall health of women and children. 

There's also a major fallacy in this polarized political framework, that pro-life position is all about saving babies and the pro-choice position is not. But that is not true. Opposing criminalization is simply an opposition to how abortions are prevented. Opposing criminalization can be part of a larger effort that is not only concerned with improving the health of babies, but on improving the overall health of women and babies, before and after delivery and birth.

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

There's also a major fallacy in this polarized political framework, that pro-life position is all about saving babies and the pro-choice position is not. But that is not true. Opposing criminalization is simply an opposition to how abortions are prevented. Opposing criminalization can be part of a larger effort that is not only concerned with improving the health of babies, but on improving the overall health of women and babies, before and after delivery and birth.

Sorry if I missed something. I should note I've never been for criminalizing abortion just more regulating when and under what parameters it is considered legal. Criminalizing it can have serious inadvertent complications that harm women who miscarry especially.

 

With luv,

BD 

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8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Sorry if I missed something. I should note I've never been for criminalizing abortion just more regulating when and under what parameters it is considered legal. Criminalizing it can have serious inadvertent complications that harm women who miscarry especially.

 

With luv,

BD 

That is criminalization.

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On 4/17/2021 at 1:37 AM, Meadowchik said:

That is criminalization.

No, criminalization and something being illegal are two different things. You can decriminalize something without making it legal. With abortion the more common language is “restrictions” but the effect is the same. So for example many states have upper limits for when an abortion can be performed. To do otherwise in that state would be illegal but it doesn’t mean there’s a criminal code for prosecution. In that state I assume the biggest potential effect is for the medical provider losing/suspending their license. But that would be with the board not the state government to decide. In a state where practicing outside the state restriction is criminalized. A person performing the abortion and/or the person who received the abortion could be prosecuted leading to not simply a lost license but state penalties such as fines or jail time and receiving a criminal record. 


with luv, 

BD 
 

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5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

No, criminalization and something being illegal are two different things. You can decriminalize something without making it legal. With abortion the more common language is “restrictions” but the effect is the same. So for example many states have upper limits for when an abortion can be performed. To do otherwise in that state would be illegal but it doesn’t mean there’s a criminal code for prosecution. In that state I assume the biggest potential effect is for the medical provider losing/suspending their license. But that would be with the board not the state government to decide. In a state where practicing outside the state restriction is criminalized. A person performing the abortion and/or the person who received the abortion could be prosecuted leading to not simply a lost license but state penalties such as fines or jail time and receiving a criminal record. 


with luv, 

BD 
 

Criminalisation is the act of making something illegal. That is the definition I am and was using in my post.

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6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Criminalisation is the act of making something illegal. That is the definition I am and was using in my post.

I was using the definition of “to make punishable as a crime.” So if it’s helpful you can just read my post as having restrictions to when an abortion can be performed, NOT as being punishable as a crime (which again in our legal system are 2 different things that can but don’t have to overlap). 
 

with luv, 

bd

Edited by BlueDreams
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1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I was using the definition of “to make punishable as a crime.” So if it’s helpful you can just read my post as having restrictions to when an abortion can be performed, NOT as being punishable as a crime (which again in our legal system are 2 different things that can but don’t have to overlap). 
 

with luv, 

bd

Right, and you can likewise read mine as "making illegal."

Now it's clear to us both I hope :)

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